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#2178870 - 11/08/13 05:29 AM Counting problem
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2059
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi,

I'm having some trouble counting and keeping rythm at the same time.

To improve the rythm my piano teacher recommended me to learn some rythm exercises out of the book:

Guida Teorico Pratica Vol 1/2 by Pozzoli

Just started with it this week. The problem I have though is that if I don't count, the rythm is good. If I count, my hands do different things then I intend to:

Rests don't work (I just tap m as any other note). If I tap Eigtht notes, it is almost impossible for me to swicht back to quarter notes and so forth.

I don't experience these problems if I don't count.

What can I do about it?


Edited by wimpiano (11/08/13 05:30 AM)
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

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#2178874 - 11/08/13 05:43 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 846
Loc: Louisiana
Counting fouls me up too. I say be glad you have some ears that are telling you they can deal with rhythm without counting.
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#2178883 - 11/08/13 06:24 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2059
Loc: The Netherlands
True, however theoretically it should improve rythm (you can measure the rythm with the counting), so just wondering whether it is not a bad (or even very bad) thing that I can't count and play well together..
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

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#2178889 - 11/08/13 07:08 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 846
Loc: Louisiana
I would say there is plenty enough to deal with while one is playing, whether performing or not ... but if having that counting capability for sight readers is a must, you'll overcome the ears butting in eventually.
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#2178929 - 11/08/13 08:54 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2059
Loc: The Netherlands
There is indeed plenty to deal with while one is playing.
However also on PW a lot of people say counting is important since:

  • Counting helps to even out tempo irregularities, such as going fast, then slow (which I do, that's why my piano teacher pays attention to it).
  • It helps co√∂rdinating your hands by combinating voice and hands
  • ...


Basic rythm is ok for me however when it get's more difficult I tend to slow down, and when it's more easy I tend to speed up. I know it while I do it however I can't get it right without help.

According to almost everybody the best way is counting.

Hence, I just want to know HOW I can go past this wall, and be able to count and tap and eventually count and play.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

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#2178931 - 11/08/13 09:04 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3415
Loc: Virginia, USA
We all go through that. Be persistent, it will come.

Remember how impossible it was to play both hands at the same time?
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2178937 - 11/08/13 09:13 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2059
Loc: The Netherlands
@TimR Thanks! Encouraging.

Playing with both hands at the same time was not a problem at all for me somehow. I rushed through the first 2 books without a problem in merely a couple of weeks. This is my first "wall".

My wife who previously played the guitar is struggling quite a lot to play with both hands though so I see what you mean.
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

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#2178950 - 11/08/13 09:31 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3415
Loc: Virginia, USA
I also teach handbells.

My ringers frequently write the counting on the music. 1, 2-and 3, 4, etc.

That may help at first.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2178970 - 11/08/13 10:03 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2059
Loc: The Netherlands
I'll give it a try smile
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

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#2180754 - 11/11/13 08:17 PM Re: Counting problem [Re: Rerun]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 846
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Rerun
I would say there is plenty enough to deal with while one is playing, whether performing or not ... but if having that counting capability for sight readers is a must, you'll overcome the ears butting in eventually.


I was doing some sloooow work on some of the syncopation in Jelly Roll's "New Orleans Blues" earlier and found counting paid off a bit getting that Rh to understand what the LH was needing with that habanera beat ... tricky stuff I might add, at least for me.
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#2180792 - 11/11/13 10:06 PM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
ajames Offline

Gold Supporter until July 24 2015


Registered: 08/25/13
Posts: 181
Loc: Texas
I found it unnatural at first but it comes eventually. Go as slow as you need to until you can do it. When you say "tapping" you mean tapping out the rhythm while counting out loud? Maybe a step along the way is to try tapping the rhythm to a metronome. Slow tempo.
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Kawai 350

XXXVIII-6-XXXIII

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#2180800 - 11/11/13 10:29 PM Re: Counting problem [Re: ajames]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 846
Loc: Louisiana
Yep, on the silent 2nd beat between the boom and the 1st chuck in the LH, I was just playing a tone in the chord with my LH as kind of a metronome to tap the silent beat until my hands got in to that habanera dance.

This digital has a metronome but never have used it. I was counting 1234 to start with then let the 2nd tone/beat keep me on track. Probably will take a little while before the hands are in the habit of that bass line.
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#2181269 - 11/12/13 08:34 PM Re: Counting problem [Re: Rerun]
Charles Cohen Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 2070
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Quote:
. . . This digital has a metronome but never have used it. . . .


Why not?

If it's like most DP's, it has a "ding tick tick tick" option.

The problem with counting _yourself_ (rather than using a metronome) is that you can easily fall into uneven counting within a bar, and _really_ easily fall into changing tempo across a bar line. [I speak from experience!]

Playing against a metronome is a _learned skill_ -- it doesn't come naturally. But (IMHO) it's worth doing.

And playing against a rhythm track (if your DP has them) can be downright fun.

. Charles
_________________________
. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / ZXA1 speaker

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#2181393 - 11/13/13 04:14 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: Charles Cohen]
wimpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 2059
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: ajames
When you say "tapping" you mean tapping out the rhythm while counting out loud?


Yes indeed.

Originally Posted By: ajames
Maybe a step along the way is to try tapping the rhythm to a metronome. Slow tempo.


Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen

If it's like most DP's, it has a "ding tick tick tick" option.

The problem with counting _yourself_ (rather than using a metronome) is that you can easily fall into uneven counting within a bar, and _really_ easily fall into changing tempo across a bar line. [I speak from experience!]

Playing against a metronome is a _learned skill_ -- it doesn't come naturally. But (IMHO) it's worth doing.


When I was a kid my teacher made me play along a metronome as well, I stopped playing though. I will try a metronome app with the "ding tick tick tick" option. I'm playing (and tapping wink ) an acoustic piano.

BTW. The counting/tapping did improve a lot over the last week however I sometimes have to gasp for breath since if I breath in between I get out of rythm..

(I also have asthma so I might have to gasp for breath sooner then the some other people).


Edited by wimpiano (11/13/13 04:14 AM)
_________________________
Schimmel 116 S
ABF Recitals: XXXIV - XXXVIII & Schumann Recital .....

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#2181396 - 11/13/13 04:44 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: Charles Cohen]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 846
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
Quote:
. . . This digital has a metronome but never have used it. . . .


Why not?

If it's like most DP's, it has a "ding tick tick tick" option.

The problem with counting _yourself_ (rather than using a metronome) is that you can easily fall into uneven counting within a bar, and _really_ easily fall into changing tempo across a bar line. [I speak from experience!]

Playing against a metronome is a _learned skill_ -- it doesn't come naturally. But (IMHO) it's worth doing.

And playing against a rhythm track (if your DP has them) can be downright fun.

. Charles



Thanks Charles ... I'll give it a try on fine tuning that syncopation in this tune.
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#2181554 - 11/13/13 11:26 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: wimpiano]
Stevester Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/03
Posts: 2851
Loc: New Jersey
Don't you use a metronome.
_________________________
"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".

anon

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#2181560 - 11/13/13 11:34 AM Re: Counting problem [Re: Stevester]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 846
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Stevester
Don't you use a metronome.


Nope, never have but I haven't been playing all that long. If it will help timing that RH plunking on this tune, it will be worth it. I'm not sure the one on this digital works.
_________________________
Rerun

"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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