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Right then. Down to business.
Could this tuning be regarded and adopted as a standard??
Can anybody tell;-
By what system was this piano tuned?? Thirds, fifths ?
How much stretch was involved??
Was a lightweight or heavyweight lever used??
Did the tuner use rubber or felt wedges??
rxd, may I assume that you have the answers to your questions? and, if you do know, are you going to inform us as to what the answers are, sometime?
Mark
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And who, pray tell, is 'Sergio?'
The Latin composer Racmanio?
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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RXD,
Does London Steinway Hall have only six D's in it's C&A department?
Something else to notice on the newer C&A pianos is the change to flat black on the top side of the lid. It's another concession to modern stage/video lighting.
All of the recent 'D's' I have come across have the STEINWAY plate casting on the strut. It is on all of them and not just the "C-D" (C&A) instruments. Those are chosen for designation after they are completed.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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I wonder who tuned this piano, perhaps using the "Steinway Guide"?.....rxd do you know who tuned it? Nice tuning, performance, and piano! I never tire of this piece. Notice the very last note on the piano, there is some felt noise! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c33q87s03h4 I'm very familiar with that situation. The rehearsal room is BBC Maida Vale studio one. Converted in 1934 into seven radio studios from a vast skating rink. Studio one is the largest with room for 150 musicians and a small audience of over two hundred. It is but one of many studios and defrocked churches used for proms rehearsals. The piano is one of three Hamburg D's kept in that studio. The black organ console is the legendary BBC Theatre Organ. The venue is the Royal Albert Hall, built in 1871. It was built to hold 8,000 souls. 9,000 was not unknown. Current safety regulations only allow 5,500 or so. The acoustics were terrible when I played there as a professional musician. You couldn't hear yoursel except the echoe almost a full second later we had to rely on the conductor. That's one reason British musicians are known to be intolerant of incompetent conductors. The situation has been improved since then, making it possible for musicians to pull conductors through a concert. All the concert pianos are almost new and hired in from the basement of Steinway hall. Three D's at 440 and three D's at 442. They are continually being moved in and out of the building to different proms venues around London. Often on rainy days so constant vigilance has to be kept for those extraneous damper noises, particularly on the soft pedal. Just when you think you've got them all, another will appear at the most Inopportune moment. Most of the trucks are now air conditioned but that only means that the pianos are moved in and out of wet conditions twice instead of once!!! I first saw the large letters "steinway" on the plate strut behind the dampers some 6-7 years ago on a NY D. I suppose it mightreflect in the lid but it would be backwards and upside down. Duhh. It's for television use. They use that shot often. there are a few B's in principal dressing rooms and choi room, etc. That piano would have received the attention of a tuner 3-4 tightly scheduled times that day by 2-3 different tuners. Reasonable when you consider that the first tuning could be at seven am and the last at nine thirty for the late concert that would have followed the one on this video. There are five guys and one girl sharing this work, (meanwhile , life goes on at the other venues and studios). We are regarded as interchangeable. They get the attention of the head technician once every 7-10 days. That tuning is an amalgamation of several tuners. A large percentage of it may have been the work of a tuner a day or two before or the last one to see it. It all depends on the weather. We all know that in that room, certain tessituras that may have drifted slightly overnight will be back in tune by about 11.30 that morning so we work accordingly. Stability is the watchword. At the midday tuning , the tuner wears a hardhat. Building site regulations are in force while they adjust the scaffolding for the overhead television lights. that mottled blue floor, by the way, is all done with lights. The floor is your usual scuffed stage black. There was a benefit concert for the families of the Titanic musicians in 1912 when they had all four of our professional London symphony orchestras on that stage at one time. theres' a photograph of that occasion. It's probably somewhere on the web by now. Right then. Down to business. Could this tuning be regarded and adopted as a standard?? Can anybody tell;- By what system was this piano tuned?? Thirds, fifths ? How much stretch was involved?? Was a lightweight or heavyweight lever used?? Did the tuner use rubber or felt wedges??
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Marty, there's only room for around 15-20 D's in the selection basement and many more are out at any one time. There's many moreD's and smaller grands and uprights in a seperate facility.
There's not much room in the piano storage room st Royal Albert Hall so some of them have to go elsewhere when a 442 orchestra it visiting. Better to keep them working. Also it is much easier and less expensive to move instruments already at 442 to locations needing that pitch than to change the pitch of the instrument in a busy hall.
Yes, the flat black tops have been used for many years that I personally know of.. Can't imagine musicians tolerate being blinded by reflected light. I haven't noticed it on the retail D's. I don't do any retail work so I wouldn't know.
It was on a NY instrument that I first saw that raised plate strut lettering years ago. I have seen it much more lately on Hamburgs.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Right then. Down to business.
Could this tuning be regarded and adopted as a standard??
Can anybody tell;-
By what system was this piano tuned?? Thirds, fifths ?
How much stretch was involved??
Was a lightweight or heavyweight lever used??
Did the tuner use rubber or felt wedges??
rxd, may I assume that you have the answers to your questions? and, if you do know, are you going to inform us as to what the answers are, sometime? I can tell you precisely how much stretch was used. We also use felt wedges with lead weights set into them. Rubber ones transfer oils to the shiny new strings. The other things are a bit facetious. There is so much spoken about them as though they mattered that I was wondering if anybody could really tell. I'm still wondering. I will ask this, though What's the only difference between a carefully tuned 5&4 temperament with careful 3&6 checks and a careful3&6 temperament with careful 5&4 checks?? Answer;- The pedantry of piano tuners.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Thank you for your response rxd!
What's the only difference between a carefully tuned 5&4 temperament with careful 3&6 checks and a careful3&6 temperament with careful 5&4 checks??
Answer;-
The pedantry of piano tuners.
I guess so. If I may ask one more question, what is your temperament preference? Thank you, Best regards,
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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Thank you for your response rxd!
What's the only difference between a carefully tuned 5&4 temperament with careful 3&6 checks and a careful3&6 temperament with careful 5&4 checks??
Answer;-
The pedantry of piano tuners.
I guess so. If I may ask one more question, what is your temperament preference? Thank you, Best regards, In answer to your question. I can't believe I'm the only one that sees the interactions of the 12 notes much as Boris Spassky must see all the possibilities of a board full of chessmen and their interactions. I don't think I have ever tuned all 12 notes in the same order twice. (I think that gives me something of the order of 5 million permutations. Ask any 12 bell change ringer). I tune the same make and models most of the time so I know where everything goes. even with a strange small piano I can play a few intervals with the piano out of tune and get a good idea where everything goes. My mind just works that way. I 'spose there's madness in my method. My colleagues tell me they never change anything when they follow my tunings when they are scheduled to follow me. One of them said I made them all gentlemen of leisure. I usually set F-F. Sometimes A-A. On small pianos I often began round the break. A large percentage of the time everything worked out smoothly. If it didn't, as long as nothing was too fast, there's nothing to obsess about if it isn't perfectly even. it's a small piano. Life's too short. In a good piano, an interval that is too slow means there's another interval too fast somewhere else. That's not necessarily true of a small piano. Learn something about WT. you'll learn to engineer it so the slow ones finish up in the best places. Anyway, there's a documentary about Allegri's miserere on TV right now. Later.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Thank you rxd. Interesting.
Mark
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Rdx, thanks for your informative post on the video, and the hall etc.
It sounds like the company you work for did the tuning?
Having just heard this video for the first time a few days ago, I really like the overall tempi for all the variations, especially in the slower movements.
Last edited by Grandpianoman; 11/08/13 05:05 PM. Reason: added content
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Rdx, thanks for your informative post on the video, and the hall etc.
It sounds like the company you work for did the tuning?
Having just heard this video for the first time a few days ago, I really like the overall tempi for all the variations, especially in the slower movements.
Yes. I was on vacation in London 10 or so years ago considering the description of a job that I had been offered and went to look up an old friend. They put me to work immediately. . I'm still here having changed to a more convenient job but I still cover much concert work that they can't schedule with their own full time staff. This concert happened when I was away looking after the pianos at a festival so I know I wasn't involved with the Proms anywhere around that time. Thanks for posting it.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Hi RXD,
I misread what you wrote, sorry. I took it to mean there were only six C&A-D's at Steinway Hall. That didn't seem to be possible.
I'm curious about something and it seems that you would know. NY Steinway Hall keeps a sizeable number of Hamburgs in the C&A department. Does London also have the NY versions available?
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Hi RXD,
I misread what you wrote, sorry. I took it to mean there were only six C&A-D's at Steinway Hall. That didn't seem to be possible.
I'm curious about something and it seems that you would know. NY Steinway Hall keeps a sizeable number of Hamburgs in the C&A department. Does London also have the NY versions available? Yes.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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The piano of the PROMS did took a bit of stage lights, the tuning is a little compact in the soprano for the orchestra (with brasses it is evident, or they play too high) Db5 and Bb5 are a little low as if they had drifted. G5 also, or where tuned "with the ear in the piano". even A4 have moved a bit - or the piano is too recent. It may possibly have been better if only one tuner tuned the piano, or at last for the 2 last tunings. Or if someone had the time to listen the rehearsal. The tuning is in the S&S standard, I believe. a little "square" tone wise, for that kind of music, that is why I believe the lights and the audience where stronger than the last tuner. I have no idea of the temperament method used at that point. Will listen a little more, may be the light will come  But Those pianos are so strongly asking for their tuning, the method make little difference,(unless something out of norms is used) as soon as the tuner listen the results are relatively similar.
Last edited by Olek; 11/08/13 07:38 PM.
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Well, Bravo to you and your firm! You know, I had a feeling your firm might be involved, just from your informative posts and professional tag line.  When I hear quality like that, it's not an effort to post! Happy to have found it!
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Isaac, listen carefully to when the piano sounds like it is being drowned out...I think it is more the way the piano was miked as opposed to the tuning etc. There are many places during the video where the volume for the mic/mics on the piano are being adjusted depending on what is going on in the orchestra. It's easier to hear this if you listen with Headphones.
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Thanks Grangpiano, You know I am not systematically saying negative things. I listened with headphones (I would not talk if not) it is not that the piano sound "lower in pitch" that is the consonance level between left hand and right and that is not "on the wild side" as it is so much expected in a concerto. It is tight and somewhat packed" Not a tuning I am at ease with in those circumstances.the bottom of the long bridge is noisy and unclear also a possible sign of too much heat That piano moved,may be, I find the tuning not very "comfortable" or I dont know what happened, the sound does not flow as for concerto and with such music the piano must be lively, brilliant, it sound somewhat packed. Miking may play a role, the pianist also (he is so serious and concentrated) About that sort of tuning I hear it more adapted to chamber music. and yes, a few notes have moved a little, or a tuner have been restricted by an ETD to place the 5th octave wher his ears where telling thy will sound good. what I call "squaring" , if you see what I mean. Excuse me, it is really no fun to give that sort of comment, I could remain silent, or as have been stated "never listen to other's work" , everything is always very good, as I was instructed to say" the piano of the customer is always excellent" here the pianist, etc. There are so many pianist, and orchestras, and composers, ons should state what he likes as there are not so many great musicians, it turns to entertainment very soon those days. In that case I cannot see how any evolving or any exchange may happen. (plus we have no recording samples provided of what the posters like or like not, that make all those discussions stay at the level of ideas, phrase, words, etc. Without samples of what we like and what we don't there is no much interest. There are some radio broadcasts where different versions of the same music are played, and compared, sometime with good ideas, (often with exaggerations )that is very interesting. Classical music is a little "show business " indeed but not in the mind of any musician. Best regards - Isaac P.S. Also the tuner used rubber mutes, it creates that sort of sound (I hope you will jump in, RXD ) just could not listen to the end... !
Last edited by Olek; 11/08/13 09:30 PM.
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This has come up again in the ETD and Stability thread. Under Tuning Procedure starting at p108 Mohr sets out the A4-A3 4ths and 5ths temperament. The first thing he says is that one has to know the sound character of thirds and sixths to set a well tuned temperament. My point was that Hakki might have found that the former Chief Concert Technician at Steinway might have answered some of his questions.
Ian Russell
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Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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Isaac, I think I'm finally getting your sense of humour. Are you parodying all the pretentious people we have to work with. You are simply repeating evrything I said about the piano and its situation already as though you really know something yourself. Brilliant!!!!
Your final comment about rubber mutes. I just loved it. How on earth did you know???You really do it well. you know, of course that I just got thru telling Mark that we all use weighted felt. But you knew better, don't you? You were just being silly, weren't you? Nobody does it better. That's just how pretentious know it all people behave, isn't it just. You do it do well.
Then, immediately after grandpianomans post of Stephen Hough, you post a video of a piano with unevenly hard hammers where the unisons have been spread so much up to the terrible unison at .49 You can even parody yourself.
That takes some doing. I'm so impressed. I often find myself out- pretentioning the pretentious just for fun and sometimes for business but I can't do it nearly as well as you do. Isn't it amazing how they're so easily suckered in. You capture that so well.
Hilarious!
Aren't you afraid some people might take you seriously and start to believe that you are that pretentious in real life?
Congratulations. You're so brave.
Impeccable!
Thank you for giving me a good laugh this cold morning.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Good to read you admit being a little pretentious sometime. Indeed I do not take that forum too seriously by now. But the samples I provided where about interpretation, not piano tuning, it is noticeable in many old recordings that there are uneven unison and quasi ET , and that very often. Is the clinical tone of the wonderful modern Steinway tuned a little too much in the rules better ? It all will depends of the pianist. I did not like that performance and said so. I preferred those old recordings, anyway for such music that is not very funny ! I am not pretentious, being one of the best tuner on earth (or at last in my street) I simply state what I hear. Too bad that place have acoustical problems. It happened at Pleyel a lot, even after the hall have been renoved sothere where some add on installed at the ceiling to fight reverberation and reflect the tone toward the audience and the orchestra. Thanks for jumping on the rubber mute I am honored you answered me, actually. I would like to hear what you say about high treble stretch and violinists, also, and even hear a sample of a piano tuned that you consider good to play in chamber music, for instance. I was not that pretentious before that forum, actually, it changed me. Hopefully there are still interesting things that comes from the thinking or experience of some. But I have enough of being submitted to samples that are less than enthusiastic to me. It is confusing. I seem to recognize in the tuning of that grand a few parameters of what I called"English tuning" when I was younger , with a tone that is a little acid as some sauce with acidity and sugar. Tone flow is as a little restricted - Sure it may be due to the miking, too much in the piano and the audience hear something totally different (the sound engineers in Radio France put the mikes at a few feet above the piano so the sound is more "natural") It is too sad that you refuse to listen to other's tuning, as you stated yet. We are submitted to critics by many people, and should be able to do so between us. In my need to learn I listened very well and deeply to many tuners and their work and I find differences, and I know what I like and what I do not. Best regards
Last edited by Olek; 11/09/13 08:01 AM.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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