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Mike Carr is just stirring the pot and casting aspersions, Marty. It is what he does. He is referring to the fact that Mason is located in Boston, yet the frame is made elsewhere.

In today's global market it is possible that a piano "made in Poland" uses components made elsewhere. It could have music wire made in Germany, hardware screws made in China, and plates made in the Czech. Republic. Within the industry this is common knowledge and this does not mean that the piano is not made in Poland.

If this is a concern to a customer - ask. I do not know of any manufacturers who hide these facts from their dealers.

My 2 cents,

Ilaw,

It's not an opinion, exactly, but food for thought. Even under 134.47,

"When as part of a trademark or trade name or as part of a souvenir marking, the name of a location in the United States or “United States” or “America” appear, the article shall be legibly, conspicuously, and permanently marked to indicate the name of the country of origin of the article preceded by “Made in,” “Product of,” or other similar words, in close proximity or in some other conspicuous location.",

there is little room for misunderstanding. M&H does, on their website, repeatedly claim their pianos are "And, as always, Mason & Hamlin pianos are Made in America." I don't believe Steinway makes the same claim for Boston.


Mike

Rich,



It's the hiding from the consumer that FTC rules are concerned with.



The plate is marked Boston and made in China. M&H does not currently manufacture pianos in Boston, it's Haverhill.

I'm not talking about what's made in Poland or the engine in a Volkswagen or the world economy. I'm discussing the claim "Made in the USA" as defined by the FTC and what constitutes deceptive practices. I am not saying M&H is guilty of anything.

If you can discuss this without defining what it is you think I'm doing or trying to pigeonhole people who don't agree with a certain marketing scheme, I'd apreciate your input. The fact that one of the forum "experts" seems to have thought the Mason's plate was made in America at least leaves room for some thought and clarification.

Mike

Mike,

You're right, that is food for thought. I initially assumed you were talking about Steinway's Boston pianos.

FWIW, I suspect that CBP would be satisfied that a finished M&H grand, even one with a Chinese plate and who-knows-what-else from who-knows-where-else, would be considered to have been substantially transformed (19 CFR 134.35) into a product of the United States by the manufacturing process in Massachusetts, and thus would not require a CBP-mandated foreign country of origin marking.

The food for thought here, though, is whether the FTC would be satisfied that the piano can be represented as "Made in the USA." I don't have the data I would want to form an opinion on that question, but it is an interesting one.

Larry.

And Steinway's plate is made in Ohio, yet it says New York on the plate. I get it Mike. Keep stirring.

For the record I am not defending Mason & Hamlin or the many other manufacturers that have global sourcing for their components.

It is easy enough to find out where components are being sourced from if this is important to a consumer. Why pick out Mason Mike?

The whole question of country of origin has become blurred in recent years. There is the story of the town that cancelled an order for a piece of equipment made by Kubota and ordered it from Deere, instead, only to find that the Kubota was assembled in the US, while the Deere was assembled in Japan. Recent reports have said that the automobiles with the most US content have Japanese nameplates, Toyota or Honda, rather than any of the so-called US automakers.

Mason & Hamlin may have more US content now than they have had previously, if the parts for their actions are made in the US.

Rich,



Come on, Rich, as long as the plate is made in the USA, the FTC has no problems. And if you can't truly see the difference, well . . .

Since you are a Mason & Hamlin dealer and not trying to hide anything, maybe it's time you stepped up to the plate. Where exactly are the Mason's piano action, plate, crown retention system, and the upright cabinet made?

Mike

Do we know that the plate is made in China? The only reference has been this:

I don't believe that an "understanding" is definitive. This may all be based on a false premise. There certainly are other foundries which can lay claim to "made in U.S.A."

Yes, Mason frames are cast in China. They are sanded, bonded, and finished in Massachusetts.

Thanks Rich!

Yes, they are cast in China. They are drilled, machined and -- as Rich pointed out -- finished in the US. M&H has made no particular secret of this.

ddf

I think Mike's point is more subtle than this. The FTC likes to point out to U.S. manufacturers that generally there is no U.S. law that requires them to indicate that a product is U.S.-made. If the manufacturer chooses to overtly make an unqualified "Made in USA" claim, however, the FTC's relatively rigorous "all or virtually all" standard kicks in.

I think what Mike is questioning is whether a piano manufactured in the U.S. with a Chinese-made plate passes the FTC's test. It's an interesting question.

Larry.

Is Mason making a strong (and potentially unqualified) claim?

I'm sure the vast bulk of the cost of manufacturing a piano is labor. How much does the raw plate cost? My guess is that the finishing of the plate costs more than the purchase of the raw material itself, and that would probably apply even if the plate had come from Ohio.

BTW, I'm instantly suspicious of the motives of anyone who wraps a product in a flag. Grotrian wouldn't meet Petrof's stupid (my opinion) CAFIM standard for everything made in the EU. Grotrian's plates come from the USA. Does it make Petrof a better piano if it's wrapped in the EU banner? Pure marketing BS for the nationalistic and the gullible.

As quoted by Mike Carr:

"A product that is all or virtually all made in the United States will ordinarily be one in which all significant parts(14) and processing that go into the product are of U.S. origin. In other words, where a product is labeled or otherwise advertised with an unqualified "Made in USA" claim, it should contain only a de minimis, or negligible, amount of foreign content. Although there is no single "bright line" to establish when a product is or is not "all or virtually all" made in the United States, there are a number of factors that the Commission will look to in making this determination. To begin with, in order for a product to be considered "all or virtually all" made in the United States, the final assembly or processing of the product must take place in the United States. Beyond this minimum threshold, the Commission will consider other factors, including but not limited to the portion of the product's total manufacturing costs that are attributable to U.S. parts and processing; and how far removed from the finished product any foreign content is."

The specific factors listed by the Commission include:

"Final assembly or processing takes place in the US": Mason and Hamlin grands meet this criterion.

"Portion of the product's total manufacturing costs attributable to US parts and processing": nearly all, I would think, as the plate is one piece and the thousands of other pieces are made and the piano is assembled here.

"How far removed from the finished product any foreign content is": An unsanded, uncoated, etc., plate is almost as far removed from the finished product as the pig iron itself.

While it is true that the plate is a large part, it is just one part! Just to anticipate Mike's response that you cannot have a piano without a plate, the list of factors that the Commission includes in the rules clearly indicates that it is very unlikely that having one relatively unprocessed and simple part. however large, in a product made of thousands of components will transform that product into one that the Commission would not consider to be made in the USA.

I have no idea whether M&H pianos pass the FTC's test or not. I was simply clarifying the point that, yes, M&H plates are cast in China and they are drilled and finished in the U.S. There appeared to be some question about this. The rest of you all can debate the rest....

ddf

Not to stir the pot…

The linked video in the original post likens the plate to the "heart" of the piano, and its casting as the birth of an individual instrument. The plate is definitely the heaviest and largest single part of a piano. It wouldn't be hard to make the case that it's a significant component. What other single piece is as important? A key? A string? Perhaps the sound board...

When I posted an NPR fluff piece, I never dreamed it would be controversial.

Whoda thunk it?

I'm no tech, but isn't the finishing/trimming of the plate far more important than where it's cast, and the method used? I think the folks that make the rim would say it is the "birth" of the instrument, too…as would the folks who build the bellies…as would the folks who fit the actions to the piano… I'm inclined to think the belly of the piano is more like the "heart" of the instrument. The plate never changes, frozen in state.

Ain't the Internets great?

RPA,

This is only if the amount of imported goods used in manufacturing is negligible, however, if it's the case of a piano plate, piano action, crown retention, etc, being imported . . .

The statement actually applies to "were a product to be manufactured primarily in the United States (and last substantially transformed there) but sent to Canada or Mexico for final assembly, any U.S. origin claim should be qualified to disclose the assembly that took place outside the United States."



Again, I think you are misunderstanding the context. Let me give you an example:

Let’s take a wrench imported from China. It’s brought to a factory in the US for final preparation. There’s some reshaping with a power press, the grip is knurled, a hole drilled in the handle, it is heat treated, it is sandblasted, tumbled, cleaned with a chemical agent, it is electroplated, part of it is painted, there is even some assembly. Can this wrench now be marked Made in The USA? No. Because it was forged or cast into its original form before importation. Sound familiar?

Hope that helps.

Mike