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#2181356 - 11/13/13 12:44 AM Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin
Scott E Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 6
I've gotten a couple YouTube copyright notices on Chopin pieces, saying I'm playing pieces owned by a third party. It seems ridiculous that someone could prevent me from uploading a recording of me playing Chopin, after more than 100 years.

Does anyone have experience with this? Did they mistakenly match my performance to a recording they manage, or is uploading an original recording not allowed?

Here's a screenshot of the message.

Screenshot

Thanks,

-Scott

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#2181357 - 11/13/13 12:54 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Don't worry. File a dispute and it will go away.

Youtube does automatic content matching so there's no way to avoid these notices.

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#2181367 - 11/13/13 01:37 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
PikaPianist Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/12
Posts: 37
Loc: Brisbane
I have those notices in most of my piano videos. I just ignore them as they don't have any impact on the video at all.
_________________________
"Without music, life would Bb."

Kawai CS6 digital piano
My channel: www.youtube.com/user/Darkalus

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#2181369 - 11/13/13 01:47 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
One more good reason to compose music: You get youtube off your back! grin

Sorry for not adding anything useful, but everything's already been said...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2181478 - 11/13/13 09:18 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
stalefleas Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/13
Posts: 249
I uploaded solfeggietto a while back and got the same message. I clicked "acknowledge" and nothing happened. I took the video down later, but for reasons unrelated to the copyright notice. However since there are multiple publishers of these songs and even copyright-void publications of the same songs, "dispute" might be a better option. These messages might crop up in case you happen to make money from ads on your videos, or if you in some other way attempt to get money from the video. But who owns this song, really? Anyhow I don't know what it all means but I can see from your screenshot there is a button you can click to get more information.

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#2181481 - 11/13/13 09:26 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Alan Lai]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Don't worry. File a dispute and it will go away.

Youtube does automatic content matching so there's no way to avoid these notices.


I wish it were so. Change "will" to "might" and I agree. But in the meantime there is a claim, and any monetization goes away.

I have had some rights holders (EMI, for instance) behave like a bulldog until I found a way to get inside the company. I took one dispute to Norman Lebrecht, who happily blasted away at EMI on his blog. One of his posters knew a lawyer at EMI, and that was the way I got them off my back. Really a pain in the parts.

It's a form of harassment. Most people won't fight back. I did. And it's a big problem in classical music, where the likelihood that someone is truly overdubbing is low in comparison to the use of copyrighted pop music. The EMI lawyer admitted that and thought that they should just leave classical stuff alone. But no, the system persists.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2181491 - 11/13/13 09:51 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: stalefleas]
Scott E Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/10
Posts: 6
The "learn more" link send me here . There isn't anything specific to my video.

The original page says Kobalt Music Group owns the copyright. I think they must have matched a portion of my recording to a recording that they manage.

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#2181535 - 11/13/13 10:50 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1843
Loc: Conway, AR USA
All is further complicated by many "public domain" pieces having copyrighted "arrangements."
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2181539 - 11/13/13 11:01 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Plowboy Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2397
Loc: SoCal
I received one of those notices for a Chopin video I uploaded for my mother. It consisted of my performance (yikes!) and my photographs. I replied telling them the copyright was long expired and it was my performance. Never heard back and the video is still available.
_________________________
Gary

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#2181581 - 11/13/13 12:03 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Scott E
The "learn more" link send me here . There isn't anything specific to my video.

The original page says Kobalt Music Group owns the copyright. I think they must have matched a portion of my recording to a recording that they manage.


Scott,

Just fill out the dispute form. If the playing is completely yours, check the box that says there is no 3rd party content and that you own it all. Electronically sign the form, and then wait.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2181609 - 11/13/13 01:05 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1423
Apparently this is a large problem, both for amateurs and professionals. Something has to go to give, because there are several profesional artists out there who have lost the ability to have their performances on youtube, sometimes for several months at a time, while a dispute is worked out.

There appear to be both internal "matching" algorithms within youtube, as well as external labels/entities who are trolling youtube for matches themselves. The conflict, at least according to one artist, is that some of the less scrupulous entities are seeking out "matches" and then after the takedown notice is issued, and the video is no longer accessible, they helpfully suggest an artist sign with them in some way in order (along with payment) to avoid "problems like these" in the future. In other words, they will simply pass over this artist for any future "content matching."

If that's truly the case, then something is terribly wrong.

I have not uploaded anything to youtube that would be recognizable, not to mention the fact that I am an amateur anyway. Not that it seems to matter. Everybody seems to be getting caught up in the trawl net that is content matching. Anyway, I only have a few "complete" pieces, and they're all on soundcloud.
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suite BWV 814 No. 3
Chopin, Fantaisie-Impromptu Op. post. 66
Tchaikovsky, Mars: Chante de l'alouette Op. 37a No. 3

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#2181682 - 11/13/13 03:11 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
The conflict, at least according to one artist, is that some of the less scrupulous entities are seeking out "matches" and then after the takedown notice is issued, and the video is no longer accessible, they helpfully suggest an artist sign with them in some way in order (along with payment) to avoid "problems like these" in the future.


That would be called a protection racket.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2181695 - 11/13/13 03:26 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Piano*Dad]
TwoSnowflakes Online   blank
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 1423
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
The conflict, at least according to one artist, is that some of the less scrupulous entities are seeking out "matches" and then after the takedown notice is issued, and the video is no longer accessible, they helpfully suggest an artist sign with them in some way in order (along with payment) to avoid "problems like these" in the future.


That would be called a protection racket.



It does feel rather mafia-like.

I wonder if RICO applies.
_________________________
Currently:
Bach, French Suite BWV 814 No. 3
Chopin, Fantaisie-Impromptu Op. post. 66
Tchaikovsky, Mars: Chante de l'alouette Op. 37a No. 3

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#2181745 - 11/13/13 04:15 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 854
Loc: UK, Brighton
Well...I think it might, SnowSnow; it goes hand in hand with an alleged and erroneous infringement upon the Copyright, Designs & Patents Act of 1988. All it requires is for someone to know the Copyright Protection act to recognise such claims are false and there's nothing they've done illegally...um...of course, to try and receive reparation would, naturally, be an incredibly long and litigious affair; the likes of which most aspiring artists simply don't have the resources with which to cope...I *think* laugh
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2181969 - 11/13/13 10:33 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Piano*Dad]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Don't worry. File a dispute and it will go away.

Youtube does automatic content matching so there's no way to avoid these notices.


I wish it were so. Change "will" to "might" and I agree. But in the meantime there is a claim, and any monetization goes away.

I have had some rights holders (EMI, for instance) behave like a bulldog until I found a way to get inside the company. I took one dispute to Norman Lebrecht, who happily blasted away at EMI on his blog. One of his posters knew a lawyer at EMI, and that was the way I got them off my back. Really a pain in the parts.

It's a form of harassment. Most people won't fight back. I did. And it's a big problem in classical music, where the likelihood that someone is truly overdubbing is low in comparison to the use of copyrighted pop music. The EMI lawyer admitted that and thought that they should just leave classical stuff alone. But no, the system persists.

I agree with that most people won't fight back, because most people are way too complacent listening tons of free music on youtube, i.e. they are "takers." Until they become "givers" they won't even notice the problem until it's too late.

Is it too late right now for classical music? I would say yes. But fortunately Chopin's work is all in public domain so nobody really has any legal ground in taking down any Chopin videos. Will this change in the future? Yes and the record industry/government is doing everything they can to tighten copyright laws.

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#2181972 - 11/13/13 10:35 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Plowboy]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
I received one of those notices for a Chopin video I uploaded for my mother. It consisted of my performance (yikes!) and my photographs. I replied telling them the copyright was long expired and it was my performance. Never heard back and the video is still available.


I have filed many disputes over my youtube videos. I curse at them every time.

All my videos (public/private) are still intact. This is just a "carpet bombing" strategy enforced by record labels.

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#2182035 - 11/13/13 11:52 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 375
Man, Chopin's lawyers can be pit bulls!

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#2182189 - 11/14/13 09:18 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: erichlof]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: erichlof
Man, Chopin's lawyers can be pit bulls!


Technically, it's not Chopin's lawyer. It's some other entity holding some performance copy-right of some pianists' lawyer.

I bet Chopin wouldn't mind performing his music during his time.

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#2182194 - 11/14/13 09:25 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
But fortunately Chopin's work is all in public domain so nobody really has any legal ground in taking down any Chopin videos


Alan,

The music isn't being challenged because of public domain issues. The "content ID" system that YouTube uses "matches" someone's home playing of a Chopin piece to an existing recording by famous pianist so-and-so. Then so-and-so's representative (EMI, Orchard, Harry Fox) slaps a complaint on the video without even looking at it. That complaint permits the "rights holder" to place advertisements in the video, or to pull it down, and the EMI's of the world don't have to prove their case at all.

The YouTube content ID system is exceedingly crude. Various rights holders have claimed that my son's videos have been stolen from Samson Francois, Steven Hough, and even Daniel Barenboim. Totally ridiculous claims if anyone had bothered to listen to the clearly non-professional playing and recording. But the "rights holder" has no interest in actually being fair. That would cost real employee time, and hence real money. They just throw their muddy claims and presume that most people will just not contest them. That way they can pull down whatever they want, or dump advertisements in thousands of videos that they don't really own.

I just got ornery and fought back. It took me weeks to get satisfaction, all without any compensation from these "rights holders."

Here's an example of fighting back:

EMI and Barenboim

This Just In: EMI Apologizes

There is no reason why the posting public should be judged guilty of copyright violation without a process that requires the "rights holder" companies to show cause beyond the demonstrably inaccurate (that's an overly polite way of saying totally bull****) computer matching systems.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2182223 - 11/14/13 10:24 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
If I may note something:

I was browsing through some pop songs and of course the uploaders had NOTHING to do with the copyright holders. BUT they were earning money, cause every single video had an ad preview (which is annoying as heck in youtube)...

In that case, and this IS the majority of issues, youtube is very right to do that matching thing and stopping all those people from earning out of nothing! frown
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2182231 - 11/14/13 10:32 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
… and it's OK to arrest anyone who walks on the street because they might commit a crime? The matching program is so bad that that is essentially what is taking place.

Why is everyone who posts on YouTube presumed guilty? Why can the people who make claims do so without an address to contact to get (force) a human review of their claim?

The lawyer for EMI told me that the "false positive" rate on classical music was perilously close to 100%, yet the claim process based solely on the crude matching software continues to run roughshod over the hard work of people who make their own content.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2182246 - 11/14/13 10:58 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
The matching program IS bad, but I will repeat that if you take out the classical music part, the rest should be fairly accurate. I mean if it's not a cover it's just the same version... But, you know how much I agree with you on the EMI case and generally the way that youtube works...

And, as far as I'm concerned youtube is not "arresting" anyone, just sending a warning, which can be dispute and goes away... :-/ Or not?
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2182249 - 11/14/13 11:06 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Yeah, the problem is the "or not," and the EMIs of the world don't even have to give you a person to complain to. They can simply reiterate their claim without offering any evidence to back it up. Then YouTube threatens you with legal action, and you have never had the opportunity to face your accuser.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2182255 - 11/14/13 11:21 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Fair enough I guess... It's never happened to me (as I joked before) and I see the point. But, I'll try offer some explanation on behalf of EMI (like it needs to).

1. It's huge. I think the amount of claims that it's getting are simply enormous. Having a real person to check things through would be a nightmare, from every point of view.
2. The loss of revenue from everyone using EMI's copyrighted material is also huge. I think that the cases when the matching bull that youtube has is wrong are minimal compared to when it's right (outside classical music).

BUT you ARE perfectly right! I would assume that there must be a way (as you did) to chase around EMIs bulls but still...

Tell you what though:

If there's enough people (100,000 as far as I know gets you a reply from the parliament, or however is called out there) to sign a petition against the matching machine (to make it better, or to find a fair way to treat the "possible wrongdoers" then I'll suppor you all the way! (really...)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2182262 - 11/14/13 11:40 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Nikolas]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 568
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Fair enough I guess... It's never happened to me (as I joked before) and I see the point. But, I'll try offer some explanation on behalf of EMI (like it needs to).

1. It's huge. I think the amount of claims that it's getting are simply enormous. Having a real person to check things through would be a nightmare, from every point of view.
2. The loss of revenue from everyone using EMI's copyrighted material is also huge. I think that the cases when the matching bull that youtube has is wrong are minimal compared to when it's right (outside classical music).


Nikolas, no offense, but I simply do not buy into these arguments. Simply having lots of claims to deal with, or the fact that they are losing lots of money does not give them the right to make a false claim of copyright over someone else's material. It's a case of them feeling that they can bully around the little guy simply because they're a big corporation.
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2182264 - 11/14/13 11:50 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: DanS]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: DanS
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Fair enough I guess... It's never happened to me (as I joked before) and I see the point. But, I'll try offer some explanation on behalf of EMI (like it needs to).

1. It's huge. I think the amount of claims that it's getting are simply enormous. Having a real person to check things through would be a nightmare, from every point of view.
2. The loss of revenue from everyone using EMI's copyrighted material is also huge. I think that the cases when the matching bull that youtube has is wrong are minimal compared to when it's right (outside classical music).


Nikolas, no offense, but I simply do not buy into these arguments. Simply having lots of claims to deal with, or the fact that they are losing lots of money does not give them the right to make a false claim of copyright over someone else's material. It's a case of them feeling that they can bully around the little guy simply because they're a big corporation.
No offence taken at all.

It's just that as I'm diving deeper into the publishing business (and I'm still tiny) I see that the amount of work is escalating to a ridiculous amount. So I can only imagine how EMI has to automate so many things.

Plus it's a youtube (read: GOOGLE) thing, not the EMI or any company behind it that's causing the issue I think...

(I will repeat that I'm certainly not a spokesman for EMI or any company, nor I like what's happening with classical works).
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2182268 - 11/14/13 11:57 AM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
When it is costless for them to make blanket claims, that is what they will do. If they were forced to pay something for a false claim, then they would discriminate a bit more, and decide which infringements were worth pursuing and which were not. At present, the rights holders just come across as bullies wielding sledgehammers.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#2182278 - 11/14/13 12:14 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: DanS]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: DanS

Simply having lots of claims to deal with, or the fact that they are losing lots of money does not give them the right to make a false claim of copyright over someone else's material. It's a case of them feeling that they can bully around the little guy simply because they're a big corporation.


They can, that is what you sign up to when you join their club.
Bottom line is that youtube can take down any videos they like without providing any reason, and if you don’t like it they can terminate your account. They are not bothered about acting fairly. It is not that they are concerned by copyright infringement (youtube relies upon millions of videos of dubious legality to draw in viewers) but more that they have to keep the record companies (their business partners) happy.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#2182292 - 11/14/13 12:44 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: beeboss]
DanS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/28/12
Posts: 568
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: DanS

Simply having lots of claims to deal with, or the fact that they are losing lots of money does not give them the right to make a false claim of copyright over someone else's material. It's a case of them feeling that they can bully around the little guy simply because they're a big corporation.


They can, that is what you sign up to when you join their club.
Bottom line is that youtube can take down any videos they like without providing any reason, and if you don’t like it they can terminate your account. They are not bothered about acting fairly. It is not that they are concerned by copyright infringement (youtube relies upon millions of videos of dubious legality to draw in viewers) but more that they have to keep the record companies (their business partners) happy.


I wasn't referring to youtube making false copyright claims, but the record companies themselves making the claims.

As far as I understand it, and I certainly could be wrong about this, it's the individual record companies making these false claims of copyright...no?
_________________________
"Most pianists are poor musicians, they dissect music into bits-and-pieces, like a roast chicken" -Debussy

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#2182297 - 11/14/13 01:00 PM Re: Youtube Copyright Notice, Chopin [Re: Scott E]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Yes.

But beeboss is noting that people who use YouTube are subject to whatever whims cross the collective brain of YouTube's managers. If YouTube wishes to allow EMI to ride roughshod over people, YouTube can do that. And we are free to pull our stuff off of YouTube if we feel harassed.

That is all true, as far as I know. I'm not sure it's the wisest course of action for YouTube, especially in the longer run. They will only succeed in driving away -- probably for good -- a lot of their most sophisticated users, especially if those users are not locked in in some way. YouTube gives a helping hand to upstart competitors that way.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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