Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
65 registered (Beachdingo, Alan_Dublin, beet31425, Beemer, 17 invisible), 1078 Guests and 22 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 5 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
#2185913 - 11/20/13 07:24 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Polyphonist]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Thing is this: If you check with a student and he doesn't seem to have a clue on what on earth is an interval (for example), but has had a few years of lesson, then something's amiss.

Ha! Remember the last time somebody brought that up? Apparently some teachers don't teach intervals.

What DO they teach then??

Finger numbers?

Actually, students can get quite far without learning intervals. They can just learn the letter names and press down the correct keys.

Wow. I knew there were a lot of ignorant teachers, but are they really THIS ignorant? You've seen people that teach this way?

Most of the teachers in my area teach this way, and they do not have a clue what is wrong.

Have you seen Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play?"

This is without doubt one of the worst books ever written, yet it is still very popular. Every note has a finger number. And each page shows a picture of what finger goes where. Guaranteed to kill reading...
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2185925 - 11/20/13 08:16 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Gary D.]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1027
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
So who determines what is correct?

I made the same point and was ignored...


Sorry Gary, maybe your post is too long to read, then usually people just skip it.

smile hihi, I am a ADHD teacher!!


Edited by ezpiano.org (11/20/13 08:16 PM)
_________________________
http://ezpiano.org
Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
@ http://bit.ly/Ready123

Top
#2185927 - 11/20/13 08:17 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1027
Loc: Irvine, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary
Have you seen Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play?" This is without doubt one of the worst books ever written, yet it is still very popular.


Agree. thumb
_________________________
http://ezpiano.org
Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
@ http://bit.ly/Ready123

Top
#2185946 - 11/20/13 09:18 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7707
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Have you seen Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play?"

No. Can you link a PDF?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2185947 - 11/20/13 09:21 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
So who determines what is correct?

I made the same point and was ignored...


Sorry Gary, maybe your post is too long to read, then usually people just skip it.

I can't imagine teachers being that rude to each other. (Also puzzled about the 'too long' posts.)

Top
#2185981 - 11/20/13 10:14 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
ezpiano.org Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1027
Loc: Irvine, CA
I am sorry for being rude to you, but that is not my intention. It is just that I cannot concentrate in reading and comprehending when the post is too long...
_________________________
http://ezpiano.org
Piano lessons in Irvine, CA
Watch the introduction video on YouTube
@ http://bit.ly/Ready123

Top
#2185995 - 11/20/13 10:53 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Gary D.]
catpiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/12
Posts: 55
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Thing is this: If you check with a student and he doesn't seem to have a clue on what on earth is an interval (for example), but has had a few years of lesson, then something's amiss.

Ha! Remember the last time somebody brought that up? Apparently some teachers don't teach intervals.

What DO they teach then??

Finger numbers?

Actually, students can get quite far without learning intervals. They can just learn the letter names and press down the correct keys.

Wow. I knew there were a lot of ignorant teachers, but are they really THIS ignorant? You've seen people that teach this way?

Most of the teachers in my area teach this way, and they do not have a clue what is wrong.

Have you seen Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play?"

This is without doubt one of the worst books ever written, yet it is still very popular. Every note has a finger number. And each page shows a picture of what finger goes where. Guaranteed to kill reading...


Thompson's books are awful. I had a student for two years when she was in pre-k and kindergarten. I had her in Faber's My First Piano Adventures; she was a very bright little girl and had just started level 1 when I stopped teaching her. Last year, when she was in 1st grade she moved away for the year and studied with a different teacher; now she's back with me. Her teacher last year put her in Thompson's. She came back to me playing much more advanced pieces than I had her playing. I was so happy with her progress until I noticed all the finger numbers! When I jumped back to Faber, she no longer recognized even middle c on the staff.

Top
#2185998 - 11/20/13 10:58 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I am sorry for being rude to you, but that is not my intention. It is just that I cannot concentrate in reading and comprehending when the post is too long...

This had nothing to do with you, nor was it about rudeness. I was simply saying that I had made the same point, slightly different words:

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
It's just that she's missing the scales part of the practice and study all together (until recently at least).

Same with Mozart. she's played that Chopin prelude, yet just got her very first Mozart! So obviously my teaching is unbalanced to a point (though I AM aware of that... So at least I'm not ignorant).

There is a difference between being an unbalanced teacher and a completely inept one.

But who is balanced? And it is your definition or mine? Or someone else's?

Who gets to make the judgment?

That's what makes it all so difficult.


Hardly anything long... smile
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2185999 - 11/20/13 10:59 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Gary D.]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2674
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

Have you seen Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play?"
This is without doubt one of the worst books ever written...


I did love the elves from the old edition, though.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

Top
#2186003 - 11/20/13 11:07 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5363
Loc: Europe
"What is correct"?

I think in a more common sense context "correct" is the results that most educated people in the field want. Stats mean nothing if you take into account wrecking ball, but if you do put the stats into a classically educated crowd then you might be on to something.

So what is correct is what the classical crowd is looking for.

For a silly break down:

1. To all students: To produce people who enjoy classical music and are not turned off by the elitism found here (<-not in Pianoworld).
2. To most students: To produce people who can play a little music and understand the value of it. Just take a look at the ABF and you'll see what I mean!
3. To a few students: To produce well rounded professionals. Those who will go on to teach, lecture, perform slightly and/or be in an orchestra (the last one doesn't really apply to piano, but...).
4. To a handful of students: To produce awesome professionals capable of a career.

I think that the above comes to terms with what people can do.

In that context I think that most students (but not all) would benefit a bit from sight reading skills, but if we are to face the truth, few would actually need it along the lines. I mean, very few of us have come face to face with a brand new score to learn or play right there! Professionals do, amateurs don't really. Or not?

PS. Finger numbers: grrrr... Last night I was with a 9 year old student. Very bright, fun to be with, etc. So last week I assigned a work that had the hand position starting from D, instead of C. teeheehee... She couldn't get one note right! She was SO used (hard wired?) to the 3rd (middle) finger being in E, so she kept banging on F instead! laugh Twas a nice evening lesson I think. Ended up putting on adagio for strings by Barber because she asked if I had anything "adagio" (because it's slow, she said) to assign! grin

EDIT: A dramatic cutscene and sorry for the continuous edits...

I found this over facebook: http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vpacv I think it's quite relevant.


Edited by Nikolas (11/20/13 11:19 PM)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2186063 - 11/21/13 02:14 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Nikolas]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

In that context I think that most students (but not all) would benefit a bit from sight reading skills, but if we are to face the truth, few would actually need it along the lines. I mean, very few of us have come face to face with a brand new score to learn or play right there! Professionals do, amateurs don't really. Or not?

But aren't you making a differentiation between reading ability and sight-reading ability?

I don't do that.

I teach every student I work with that there is a direct link between getting results fast when learning new music and reading ability, because reading ability is what allows you to get each section to as close to target speed as possible in the last amount of time - assuming we are talking about mastering something that is notated.

I see an absolute connection between quick learning and reading fluency, and there is not a great reader on the planet who cannot also sight-read well.

The two things are not different, just different degrees or a different focus.

It's sort of like saying that the only people who need to read text fluently are actors, because they can learn their scripts faster, and the rest of us will never use fluent reading.
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2186068 - 11/21/13 02:22 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5363
Loc: Europe
Gary: I think that I meant a slightly different thing. Not that most students do not need it "at all", but it's not needed at a high enough level, to warrant a failed exam because of that alone...

Reading an language text is different because of a couple of things, than reading a music text. First of all is the getting used symptom: You get to read English and tons of that everywhere you go. I'd argue that 50% of our time we get to check a text (in any language). When you read a book, the news, watching the telly, the internet, in the cans, the manuals, everywhere... The same doesn't apply to a music text.

Secondly the involvement in playing an instrument demands an enormous amount of coordination and skills, that reading doesn't.

So, for me sight reading involves performing at the same time, while reading doesn't (it involves studying more or less). So the demands are very different.

* I think *
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2186318 - 11/21/13 12:56 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: catpiano]
Brinestone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 358

Quote:
Thompson's books are awful. I had a student for two years when she was in pre-k and kindergarten. I had her in Faber's My First Piano Adventures; she was a very bright little girl and had just started level 1 when I stopped teaching her. Last year, when she was in 1st grade she moved away for the year and studied with a different teacher; now she's back with me. Her teacher last year put her in Thompson's. She came back to me playing much more advanced pieces than I had her playing. I was so happy with her progress until I noticed all the finger numbers! When I jumped back to Faber, she no longer recognized even middle c on the staff.


That is seriously tragic. I can see myself crying about that after the lesson was over.
_________________________
Piano teacher since 2008, member of NFMC

Top
#2186696 - 11/22/13 03:17 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Gary D.]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5550
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Have you seen Thompson's "Teaching Little Fingers to Play?"

This is without doubt one of the worst books ever written, yet it is still very popular. Every note has a finger number. And each page shows a picture of what finger goes where. Guaranteed to kill reading...

I think we visited JT problems before. One of my recent transfers is about to be done with her JT book, and I can't wait to see what'll happen once I get her to a method book that has minimal finger numbers.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#2186699 - 11/22/13 03:29 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Gary D.]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5550
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I see an absolute connection between quick learning and reading fluency, and there is not a great reader on the planet who cannot also sight-read well.

The two things are not different, just different degrees or a different focus.

But what about kids who can read (cognitively process) notes really fast, but their hands are just so uncoordinated, or seriously lacking in fine-motor skills, that playing the correct key on the piano is well-nigh impossible?

Also, sight reading has a multitasking and a rhythm component, and any weakness in those areas will strongly affect sight reading.

What do you think?
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

Top
#2186752 - 11/22/13 07:38 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12137
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I see an absolute connection between quick learning and reading fluency, and there is not a great reader on the planet who cannot also sight-read well.

The two things are not different, just different degrees or a different focus.

But what about kids who can read (cognitively process) notes really fast, but their hands are just so uncoordinated, or seriously lacking in fine-motor skills, that playing the correct key on the piano is well-nigh impossible?

Also, sight reading has a multitasking and a rhythm component, and any weakness in those areas will strongly affect sight reading.

What do you think?
I agree that there's two aspects in reading or sight reading: the rhythm and the pitch. If one is deficient, then sight reading will suffer, and learning pieces will take longer.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2186768 - 11/22/13 08:06 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Morodiene]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3239
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I agree that there's two aspects in reading or sight reading: the rhythm and the pitch. If one is deficient, then sight reading will suffer, and learning pieces will take longer.


It has seemed to me that reading and sightreading differ in the degree of connection to strict time.

When sightreading one cannot disconnect; the show has to go on. When learning a piece by reading most people feel less requirement to stay strictly with time (outside of the Caruso followers maybe)

I'm curious about those who learn a piece by listening without reading; I never do that myself so I have no experience base.

Last night I subbed with a good local community band on trombone. (I accidentaly sent an email to the wrong person and volunteered to play their Christmas concert, for a band I'd never played with. Oh, well.) All the pieces in a two hour rehearsal were new to me, so it was two straight hours of sightreading at performance tempo. That's really fun, but demands your concentration not slip. I needed a beer after that.

But if I'd been given the music to prepare, my approach would have been a bit different.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#2186790 - 11/22/13 09:04 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: TimR]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12137
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I agree that there's two aspects in reading or sight reading: the rhythm and the pitch. If one is deficient, then sight reading will suffer, and learning pieces will take longer.


It has seemed to me that reading and sightreading differ in the degree of connection to strict time.

When sightreading one cannot disconnect; the show has to go on. When learning a piece by reading most people feel less requirement to stay strictly with time (outside of the Caruso followers maybe)

I'm curious about those who learn a piece by listening without reading; I never do that myself so I have no experience base.

Last night I subbed with a good local community band on trombone. (I accidentaly sent an email to the wrong person and volunteered to play their Christmas concert, for a band I'd never played with. Oh, well.) All the pieces in a two hour rehearsal were new to me, so it was two straight hours of sightreading at performance tempo. That's really fun, but demands your concentration not slip. I needed a beer after that.

But if I'd been given the music to prepare, my approach would have been a bit different.
Still, if you can decipher pitch and rhythm faster, then you will learn a piece faster even when not "sight reading" but learning a new piece. The two are linked and they can help one another, although the requirements for each are slightly different.

PS: I find sight reading singing much easier than piano, one note at a time is easy, even if you add words smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

Top
#2187057 - 11/22/13 07:55 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Nikolas]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Gary: I think that I meant a slightly different thing. Not that most students do not need it "at all", but it's not needed at a high enough level, to warrant a failed exam because of that alone...

Reading an language text is different because of a couple of things, than reading a music text. First of all is the getting used symptom: You get to read English and tons of that everywhere you go. I'd argue that 50% of our time we get to check a text (in any language). When you read a book, the news, watching the telly, the internet, in the cans, the manuals, everywhere... The same doesn't apply to a music text.

Secondly the involvement in playing an instrument demands an enormous amount of coordination and skills, that reading doesn't.

So, for me sight reading involves performing at the same time, while reading doesn't (it involves studying more or less). So the demands are very different.

* I think *

We are talking past each other. I don't disagree. smile

But their are parallels and pitfalls. Think back to a time when most people did not read, when it was considered something special, before the printing press maybe.

Then think of people who learned to read by reading the Bible over and over, stuff like that.

Some of these people eventually had a good bit of the Bible memorized, but that did not mean that they read the Bible fluently. They may have, but not necessarily.

Now, if you have something MOSTLY memorized but still read it a little, you may hold a book while reading and appear to be reading very fluently simply because the text is mostly in your head, most of the way.

There was also a time when people of all ages were forced to "recite", and that meant memorizing poems, parts of plays, and so on. Obviously when people "recite" well that does not show how quickly they read, right? We would also want to find out what a "cold reading" sounds like, much like an actor who is handed a script and is asked to being reading it, on the spot.

Reading music is a bit like the actor who wants to pick up a script and begin rehearsing immediately. Obvious someone who has an endless amount of time to study the script will eventually be just as fluent when playing the role, but it should take a lot longer to get there, all things being equal - which they never are.

That's a bit how I see piano. If your goal is to open a score and get it as close to right the first time, the emphasis will be on reading, and that will carry over to sight-reading. I don't think that is something that is just important for professional musicians, mostly because there is no division between amateur and professional while a student is developing. He or she doesn't know where it is going to end.

I started accompanying in high school. I did not know I would do it. I did not prepare to do it. I was just a quick reader, and not every students could find an accompanyist.

At close to same time I found out that a voice teacher in town was advertising for a student accompanist. He wanted cheap labor, of course. smile I got the job sight-reading selections from "The Messiah". I did not know the music.

I got the ability in reading by reading everything, same was as English. I could not pass by a score, or a pop tune in sheet music form. I simply played everything that was around, and the fact that I murdered a lot of the music is part of it.

Most students never get there, but a huge reason WHY they do not get there is a fear of making mistakes, being criticized, not being perfect. That is probably why my number one focus in teaching is not producing young players who play impressively but rather young players who are extremely versatile, who learn easily and fast, and how may later, if they so wish, branch out into any number of areas...
_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2187184 - 11/23/13 06:16 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Nikolas]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

For a silly break down:

1. To all students: To produce people who enjoy classical music and are not turned off by the elitism found here (<-not in Pianoworld).
2. To most students: To produce people who can play a little music and understand the value of it. Just take a look at the ABF and you'll see what I mean!
3. To a few students: To produce well rounded professionals. Those who will go on to teach, lecture, perform slightly and/or be in an orchestra (the last one doesn't really apply to piano, but...).
4. To a handful of students: To produce awesome professionals capable of a career.

I think that the above comes to terms with what people can do.

In that context I think that most students (but not all) would benefit a bit from sight reading skills, but if we are to face the truth, few would actually need it along the lines. I mean, very few of us have come face to face with a brand new score to learn or play right there! Professionals do, amateurs don't really. Or not?

I'd like to replace "sight reading" in the sense of an accompanist facing a new score and an eager choir or soloist all at the same time with something more basic - instead: being able to go through a new score at an easier pace, to get a sense of the piece without having to resort to a recording. I'd like to add the ability to read music and everything related to that.

The biggest thing in my mind beyond reading is simply skills. That a student gets the skills and the knowledge that they need so they can play piano, and do so after leaving lessons. But that goes beyond the quoted topic.

I'm looking at your breakdown. The one thing that I would question is the division along the idea of careers. Yes, a professional performer who goes on stage as a soloist needs the skills or he'll never get there. But someone who has those skills doesn't necessarily have to become a performer.

My interest is above all in the first stages of learning. At that point you don't know whether that student will be in your category 1, 2, 3, or 4 (in terms of skills, with or without the career). But if they don't get solid foundations, then they are compromised for anything they might reach after that. If the student is shortcutted through pieces, or given only a few pieces in order to shine at performance in exams or recitals, if that student ends up missing skills, then he'll struggle later. The tragic thing is that the student won't know why, and will think there is something wrong with him. That becomes your transfer student that the next teacher sees with dismay.

Top
#2187578 - 11/24/13 12:32 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Nikolas]
Mike. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 10
I am not a piano teacher.... however I am looking for one. Now here is what I would suggest to anyone teaching piano. Some advice.

NUMBER ONE!!!!

I don't care about your "star" 12 year old student that can play anything while i am trying to learn. keep it up I go away.

NUMBER TWO!!!!

I don't want to hear about your student's recitals and hear about how older students won't be as good or make it to concert pianist quality like a student that started playing in their Mothers womb because in my situation my parents couldn't afford piano lessons as we needed groceries more. again I go away.

NUMBER THREE

I don't like clock watchers,

NUMBER FOUR.

Some "star students" learn certain ways and the suckier students may not learn the same way so if you truly care about the student maybe find a way to crack their brain. some bad students are practicing and they are LONGING to be good. But every brain is different. try all approaches there is a way to get them to be stars as well if you work to try to find it. remember learning is a two way street. I teach Dressage and Banjo. I am a teacher and I also teach CCD in my Church. So i have some experience.

A good teacher will have patience with their students and bad teachers don't. I learned to play banjo with Bill Keith the best teacher i ever had only banjo teacher that knew music theory and I learned it which is helping me drastically in keys. I never met a piano teacher like him.

It also isn't all about money it is about spreading the art and sharing the art. (Do you know how many really cool church organs I get from churches? for free? TONS) There are students that are broke sometimes you need to give in order to receive. and being generous won't take your knowledge away. it only enhances it. Whilst knowing teachers deserve groceries. but sometimes student stacking is crap and annoying and I don't like it.

I am speaking of experience. both as a student and a teacher. and some riding instructors can make that little old Nun with the ruler a joy to be around. I am still looking for my dream piano teacher. I hope it will be God. but till then I have no choice but to teach myself and it is working out better so far. Some students (Myself included) don't read well (Virgil Fox as well) and the hesitation will drive me out of my skin. Now i am working on putting hands together and then will try to read. I thought i would share my feelings. I may be wrong but I am going on what I found in my search.


Edited by Mike. (11/24/13 12:36 AM)

Top
#2187583 - 11/24/13 01:01 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
Brinestone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 358
Mike, I'm with you 100%. I still feel bad sometimes that there were some students whose brains I couldn't completely "crack," as you say. I feel somewhat like I failed them, but not for lack of trying. Teaching is not about the prestige or satisfaction of producing prodigies. It's about sharing music: sharing the ability to make music, the joy of appreciating music, the care to be deliberate with music. And it's about students first and foremost.

I remember in college, when I majored in secondary English teaching, being told that I shouldn't choose that major if I loved English more than I loved teenagers. I should have listened because really, if you don't like students, even the "difficult" ones, you're going to be a miserable teacher.
_________________________
Piano teacher since 2008, member of NFMC

Top
#2187584 - 11/24/13 01:32 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano

But what about kids who can read (cognitively process) notes really fast, but their hands are just so uncoordinated, or seriously lacking in fine-motor skills, that playing the correct key on the piano is well-nigh impossible?

Also, sight reading has a multitasking and a rhythm component, and any weakness in those areas will strongly affect sight reading.

What do you think?

I am defining fast reading/sight-reading as the ability to play music correctly and get to that point quickly. A student who has glaring rhythmical weaknesses is not going to be able to do that.

The same thing is true of someone with physical limitations, because such a student will be unable to turn what is on the page into a "playing-result". That's clumsy, but I can't think of a better wording.

However, this brings up an interesting point - are there people who hear the music in their heads much better than they can play it and who would also be capable of listening to others and making valuable corrections?

Well, we know some very famous composers have not been strong pianists, so if they wrote music which they obviously had to hear it all and be very comfortable with what they wrote down, and then some were excellent conductors, I don't know where that puts them, though obviously in a place I both do not understand and that humbles me.

For an example of a non-pianist there is the bio of Toscannini, who was a "mere cello player". He just started conducting opera out of nowhere, and I have read that he had a photographic memory. His talent goes far beyond anything I can hope to understand.

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

But for our rather limited focus here, just talking about what pianists have to do to be successful as pianists, I would say that all of us who work with scores have a huge advantage if we are able to read fast, meaning PLAY from score, quickly and easily. And in my world playing the right notes is not music, because music has rhythm.

Someone is probably going to accuse me of having a bias towards readers, as if people who are weak readers or non-readers are inferior, and that is NOT something I believe.

But I have never met a pianist, no matter how talented, who did not regret not being able to read better if s/he had a weakness in that area, perhaps for the same reason that I envy people who can play better by ear than I can.



_________________________
Piano Teacher

Top
#2187585 - 11/24/13 01:45 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Gary D.]
Mike. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 10
I feel that being a well rounded piano player. Sight reading playing by ear is the dream of dreams. I have a friend that plays the organ. he is not a sight reader and he uses fake books. His excuse was that his hero didn't sight read and that was Virgil Fox. Virgil Fox i am sure would have told him that it would be much better to do so. I can read the treble clef. I am getting to where Fake books are understandable.
I know I am weak in reading and I envy (God hears me trust me) those that can take a score and just play it and I think it sucks when I can't. But I have qualities that others don't. I have great dexterity and I know i could play stride once I get the pianist in me out. I was told my left hand was excellent as fretting the banjo for thirty years has helped in that area. I also have large hands and I hear music in my head and can hear the chords and the key (most times) and I just lack the reading skills. Will i ever get to be a sight reader. I don't know. I play by ear and learning to read fake books. I am going to give it that college try. If i never sight read as long as i can play i don't care. but I'd surely rather.

Top
#2187586 - 11/24/13 01:58 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Brinestone]
Mike. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: Brinestone
Mike, I'm with you 100%. I still feel bad sometimes that there were some students whose brains I couldn't completely "crack," as you say. I feel somewhat like I failed them, but not for lack of trying. Teaching is not about the prestige or satisfaction of producing prodigies. It's about sharing music: sharing the ability to make music, the joy of appreciating music, the care to be deliberate with music. And it's about students first and foremost.

I remember in college, when I majored in secondary English teaching, being told that I shouldn't choose that major if I loved English more than I loved teenagers. I should have listened because really, if you don't like students, even the "difficult" ones, you're going to be a miserable teacher.


I wouldn't feel bad. I went to seminary as i thought I was called as a delayed vocation to the priethood I had to take undergrad courses. I took piano and the teacher I had was a nun. She was very unfriendly, The organist at the seminary was friends with her. I told him I really want to play the organ. Well she shared with him how I am not talented in the piano. I am one of those students that so far haven't met the right teacher. She was a witch. But often like with Dressage (riding horses) some students are not compatible with their instructors. I met a woman in SD that had 5 grand prix horses. She coached me and I went from 4th level to riding grand prix horses. We were a perfect fit. It is not the teachers fault if he/she is doing all he/she can. it is a compatibility issue. Some may think that person has no talent and the student is a lost cause. I however feel that it is a compatibility issue and with some instructor/student relationships it is like an Apple tying to run PC stuff. it is a tough fit. I am going it alone and I have gone so much further than with that nun or the other teachers I had which weren't many had one that I thought may be good and I had to relocate. As a student of the piano. and was a student of dressage and banjo the student MUST have that I can do attitude and the fortitude to forge on even if that means you are told you have no talent. That is for me as the student to believe or not. I am sure they thought Einstein was a dumb person. but he proved them all wrong. I also feel that miracles do happen. but I think that the student must find a compatible teacher and I believe that there is a match for 99% I hope to find a great teacher.


Edited by Mike. (11/24/13 02:00 AM)

Top
#2187598 - 11/24/13 04:00 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
Ben Crosland Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 420
Loc: Worcester, UK
Mike - what do you mean by "I don't like clock watchers."?

For lessons to start on time, they need to end on time - also, it is unreasonable to expect more, or less lesson time than you pay for. Or am I misunderstanding you?
_________________________
Teacher, Composer, Sound Designer

Cool Beans!

Easy Christmas Jazz

YouTube channel




Top
#2187636 - 11/24/13 08:29 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Nikolas]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Canada
I'm still stuck on this:
Originally Posted By: Nikolas

For a silly break down:

1. To all students: To produce people who enjoy classical music and are not turned off by the elitism found here (<-not in Pianoworld).
2. To most students: To produce people who can play a little music and understand the value of it. Just take a look at the ABF and you'll see what I mean!
3. To a few students: To produce well rounded professionals. Those who will go on to teach, lecture, perform slightly and/or be in an orchestra (the last one doesn't really apply to piano, but...).
4. To a handful of students: To produce awesome professionals capable of a career.

I think that the above comes to terms with what people can do.


The part I am stuck on is that it is seen in terms of careers. Someone may have the skills of your 4, but not be aiming to be a professional, or may not become a professional. Someone might teach (your 4) without having much in the way of skills.

The most important thing for me is that students get solid foundations. Those foundations are essential for the higher levels, or else it falls apart, but they are built in the very beginning. My concern is if this is not done in the first stage, because "this student won't need it - they are not going to become professionals". Reading ability is one such component, but there are others.

Top
#2187638 - 11/24/13 08:42 AM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5363
Loc: Europe
Keystring, I've run out of time. Weekends are kinda bad for me... Thus my lack of replies. I'll get back to you...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2187699 - 11/24/13 12:19 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: Ben Crosland]
Mike. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/31/13
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: Ben Crosland
Mike - what do you mean by "I don't like clock watchers."?

For lessons to start on time, they need to end on time - also, it is unreasonable to expect more, or less lesson time than you pay for. Or am I misunderstanding you?


what I mean is that some teachers stack students to the the second. they want so many students that there is no time for questions or any extra time once and a while. Music is more than money. Also I meant teachers that constantly look at the clock. I also think half hour lessons are too short. when I teach a student to ride horses sometimes I would ask them to come for a 15 minute touch up the next day I don't charge,I see something that needs attention and sometimes the student needs a break and a lot of the time the next day the issue is quickly resolved when refreshed. the next day they are refreshed but not too much time has passed to where that would be uneffective. . I am different. I love to teach and give. God gave me talent to do things I like to show God my gratitude by giving what he gave me,God didn't charge me for every whip stitch thing he gave me, why should I? He also understands we need groceries and rent and all that. but at the same time compassion charity and giving back is also part of the equation. Some teachers don't get that part. Why is it unreasonable to ask for generosity once and a while?

Top
#2187702 - 11/24/13 12:27 PM Re: Bad Teachers [Re: AZNpiano]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Canada
I read somewhere that you are self-teaching atm. Have you had experience with piano or keyboard teachers, and if so, does what you write reflect your experience(s)? In youth or as an adult student? For any length of time? One teacher, or several?

Top
Page 5 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!

Trade Regrets:
Barry "Bear" Arnaut

(ad) Yamaha
Yamaha
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Antique Piano
by NeoNeo78
Today at 03:29 AM
Hammer felt repairs. Advice Please
by Beachdingo
Today at 02:12 AM
Keyframe corner rounded at una corda spring contact
by sopranojam85
Today at 12:04 AM
Yamaha Grantouch GT 10
by Valhalun
Yesterday at 11:55 PM
Hamelin plays Gershwin
by beet31425
Yesterday at 11:02 PM
Forum Stats
77013 Members
42 Forums
159281 Topics
2339835 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission