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#2188229 - 11/25/13 06:25 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1054
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Excellent point, Kees.

I think we return to an important point here: there are a lot of tuners who overestimate their ability, or who no longer hear the imperfection inherent in their tuning. Imperfect scales mean tuning variations to find compromises over them.

The amount 4 notes would have to cumulatively vary is about 0.2c to upset the balance of CM3rds. However, if four notes cumulatively varied this much in one direction, it wouldn't upset progression. Localized variation is required and for a single note, this is about 0.76c.

This is underneath the PTG test limit for errors. Built into the PTG test is an understanding that up to 1.0c variations are required to find scale compromises in the temperament region.


Hi Tunewerk,

Beyond "...compromises...", I look forward to listening to your pure 12ths ET tuning.


Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Every single recording posted here of M3/6's, including your own which I took from your PTG educational video, were not completely progressive.

Moreover the tolerances of the PTG tuning exam are such that it is possible to score 100% without having progressive M3/M6.

Kees

I will record that if you wish, (did retune with "standard tuning" and stack of M3) there is always some small imbalance in the reconciliation of slow and fast beating intervals, but if the goal is to have progressive M3 or 10th, it is in now way impossible.

Yes, if you (or anyone else) would be so kind to record progressive M3/6 in the temperament range I would be grateful. I will believe it when I see it, and I think I'm not the only one.

Thanks,
Kees


Hi Kees, I think you (and those you are hosting in your mind) may well start a new Topic, kind of "I will believe it when I see it", so that here you will make less noise for those who have already seen "it".


Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Quote:
The CM3 sequence would have compared, right at the beginning,
F3-A3 = 6.7
A3-C#4 = 7.7
C#4-F4 = 10.9
F4-A4 = 12.9
It would have compared the beat rates without knowing their absolute values.

Although you point out quite correctly that they are progressive, I would submit that one could have picked out that...
1) The difference between F3-A3 and A3-C#4 is too small, while
2) The difference between A3-C#4 and C#4-F4 is too big.

The remedy would be to lower both F3 and F4.

Perhaps this is what Bill was referring to.


Exactly! As I point out in my own version of "Let the piano tell you", when you compare a series of 4 CM3's (not just three), if the top M3 (F4-A4) is too slow, then the bottom M3 (F3-A3) is too slow. You then lower both F3 & F4, then possibly also slightly adjust C#4 so that everything fits.

Works the same if the top M3 is too fast.

When Jim Coleman Sr. was reviewing what I had written about that, I now recall that he said he had written virtually the same thin sometime in the 1980's. However, when you posted what he had written in another thread, that was the first time I had ever seen it.

I certainly have not seen or read everything that Jim Coleman wrote but it does show that when something exists to be discovered, it will be. It was actually Viviano, someone who was trying to learn how to tune a temperament octave and who was trying to help me edit my material so that it would be clearly understandable who pointed out to me that what I was doing was treating the F3-F4 octave as a pair. If one F is moved, the other must be moved by the same amount. If that does not yield the correct result, then try again.

Usually, it only takes one, maybe two adjustments of both F's to find the correct balance but for a beginner, I can see how one may have to go back and forth a few times before getting it right.

I would also like to say that there is no reason why a person cannot use a traditional 4ths & 5ths sequence that is practiced and familiar and then use CM3 tests to sort out ("nitpick") small errors.

In the example that Jeff posted, if he had listened to the chain of CM3's from F3-A4 after having arrived at the results in the usual and practiced way, the small error would probably have been evident.

In the end, all 4ths & 5ths need to sound very much a like, none too pure, none "beating", all M3's and M6's progressive and all CM3's also having the proper but small, slower/faster relationship. When you have all of that, you have what would be an indisputable ET. It can exist on any piano, regardless of scale.


Hi Bill,

You wrote: ..."Exactly! As I point out in my own version of "Let the piano tell you", when you compare a series of 4 CM3's (not just three), if the top M3 (F4-A4) is too slow, then the bottom M3 (F3-A3) is too slow. You then lower both F3 & F4, then possibly also slightly adjust C#4 so that everything fits."...

IMO, the problem with that sequence is that three or 4 CM3's are not telling you how the M3's in between will be, those initial 4 M3's are too far away and anything can happen with the remaining M3's. It gets much easier when you can compare M3's that are closer, like A3-C#4, A#3-D4 and B3-D#4, and it is much easier (I would say) to evaluate the A3-E4 slow breathing (a very slow beat), or the A3-D4 1bps beat, than having to guess how those 4 CM3's compare to each other. Of course, this is only my opinion, which is based only on my own routines.

..."Works the same if the top M3 is too fast."...

IMO, it might work, but it is far more open to approximations.

..."When Jim Coleman Sr. was reviewing what I had written about that, I now recall that he said he had written virtually the same thin sometime in the 1980's. However, when you posted what he had written in another thread, that was the first time I had ever seen it. I certainly have not seen or read everything that Jim Coleman wrote but it does show that when something exists to be discovered, it will be. It was actually Viviano, someone who was trying to learn how to tune a temperament octave and who was trying to help me edit my material so that it would be clearly understandable who pointed out to me that what I was doing was treating the F3-F4 octave as a pair. If one F is moved, the other must be moved by the same amount. If that does not yield the correct result, then try again."...

I agree, good practice is to check any other related interval.

..."Usually, it only takes one, maybe two adjustments of both F's to find the correct balance but for a beginner, I can see how one may have to go back and forth a few times before getting it right."...

I would say that we need to be willing "to go back" as many times it is needed, and once we expand the first octave we get more and more checks, like 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths, which may suggest we... go back.

..."I would also like to say that there is no reason why a person cannot use a traditional 4ths & 5ths sequence that is practiced and familiar and then use CM3 tests to sort out ("nitpick") small errors."...

Yes, I am glad you are open to other methods.

..."In the example that Jeff posted, if he had listened to the chain of CM3's from F3-A4 after having arrived at the results in the usual and practiced way, the small error would probably have been evident."...

Hmmm... IMO, there were three*2 other issues there, perhaps method*knowledge, accuracy*skill and will*head.

..."In the end, all 4ths & 5ths need to sound very much a like, none too pure, none "beating", all M3's and M6's progressive and all CM3's also having the proper but small, slower/faster relationship. When you have all of that, you have what would be an indisputable ET. It can exist on any piano, regardless of scale."...

I agree on the last part of that sentence, "..It (edit: an indisputable ET) can exist on any piano, regardless of scale".

I do not agree with the first part, where you say "all 4ths & 5ths need to sound very much a like, none too pure, none "beating"... Let me know if you want to know more about how 4ths and 5ths need to sound, and it depends precisely on 4ths and 5ths, if they do not sound how they should, there is no way you can achieve "truly" and "smoothly" progressive RBI's (all across the keyboard).

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2188238 - 11/25/13 06:51 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Phil D]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Phil D
This thread is getting really interesting!

I recorded this, with a strip mute in. I was happy with the progression at the time, until I listened back to the recording. I know I can do better, but I'm emboldened to post it now smile

https://soundcloud.com/phil-dickson-1/piano-tuning-1920s-chappell

ugh... those 5ths are really uneven!

I can't download that file, just play it, so I can't analyze it.

Kees

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#2188240 - 11/25/13 06:53 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Hi Kees
[...off topic stuff cut...]
Hi Alfredo.

Kees

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#2188261 - 11/25/13 07:35 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1054
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Yes, if you (or anyone else) would be so kind to record progressive M3/6 in the temperament range I would be grateful. I will believe it when I see it, and I think I'm not the only one.

Thanks,
Kees

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Hi Kees, I think you (and those you are hosting in your mind) may well start a new Topic, kind of "I will believe it when I see it", so that here you will make less noise for those who have already seen "it".



Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Hi Kees
[...off topic stuff cut...]
Hi Alfredo.

Kees


Hi dear,

Yes, cut stuff and play digital if you like, but... how about starting a new Topic where you can analyze ad libitum and keep together all the material you get?
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (11/25/13 08:00 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#2188284 - 11/25/13 08:26 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Yes, if you (or anyone else) would be so kind to record progressive M3/6 in the temperament range I would be grateful. I will believe it when I see it, and I think I'm not the only one.

Thanks,
Kees

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Hi Kees, I think you (and those you are hosting in your mind) may well start a new Topic, kind of "I will believe it when I see it", so that here you will make less noise for those who have already seen "it".



Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Hi Kees
[...off topic stuff cut...]
Hi Alfredo.

Kees


Hi dear,

Yes, cut stuff and play digital if you like, but... how about starting a new Topic where you can analyze ad libitum and keep together all the material you get?
.

I'm probably wasting my time by responding, but since we have been considering progressive M3/6 as a possible standard for ET, don't you think determining if this standard is practical by examining if anyone can actually tune to this level of accuracy is on-topic in this thread?

Kees

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#2188339 - 11/25/13 11:06 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3036
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Quote:
It can exist, but this does not prove that it does exist. Every single recording posted here of M3/6's, including your own which I took from your PTG educational video, were not completely progressive.

Moreover the tolerances of the PTG tuning exam are such that it is possible to score 100% without having progressive M3/M6.

Kees


Kees, two things. That is the ET via Marpurg and from viewing Jason Kanter's graph, you would not expect perfect progressions, especially in the M6's. The main reason that video does not have better progressions than it does is that I forgot to execute the very last step: reconcile D#4 with the G#3 and A#3 below it.

It remains true, however that if the ET via Marpurg is perfectly executed, it will "pass" the PTG tuning exam. Several people I know of have done that. I am not allowed to talk about anyone's actual scores by name unless I have permission to do so but I do know of at least one person who passed the temperament portion of the exam with a perfect 100.

If I were to guess at what Jeff's temperament would have scored, it might be a 98 (only one "error" scored). But that is hypothetical because a Walter Console does not meet exam standards and there was no "Master Tuning" to compare it to. Nevertheless, a slight error such as is heard would probably score an electronic point.

The criterion for whether a scored point can be aurally verified is: Can the note which has a scored point be improved by either sharpening it or flattening it. If any aural checks (including CM3 checks) say that it can be, then the scored point is confirmed.

Let's all remember this: The tuning exam was set up so that only about 50% of tuners can pass it. After some years in use, the exam standards were tightened by adding multipliers to the pitch, temperament, midrange, unisons and stability portions of the exam. Today, it still remains true that only about half of first time attempts at the exam actually pass it.

This means that you don't have to be able to be perfect. No one has ever taken the exam and scored perfect 100's in all 8 categories. If I were to take the exam today or any day, I would not expect to get perfect scores in every category either.

So, one may hold up the PTG exam as being a model for ET and a standard to which one may aspire but the exam itself has tolerances that mean even if someone ever does get a perfect score in all 8 sections of the exam, the resultant tuning would still not be absolutely "perfect".

It is all just as hypothetical as BDB's nearly 20,000 posts are.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2188368 - 11/25/13 11:44 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 372
There is already a standard. It seems retarded to try to reinvent the wheel. Experienced tuners ALREADY know how to properly tune a piano. Just do it
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2188375 - 11/25/13 11:59 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Quote:
It can exist, but this does not prove that it does exist. Every single recording posted here of M3/6's, including your own which I took from your PTG educational video, were not completely progressive.

Moreover the tolerances of the PTG tuning exam are such that it is possible to score 100% without having progressive M3/M6.

Kees


Kees, two things. That is the ET via Marpurg and from viewing Jason Kanter's graph, you would not expect perfect progressions, especially in the M6's. The main reason that video does not have better progressions than it does is that I forgot to execute the very last step: reconcile D#4 with the G#3 and A#3 below it.

It remains true, however that if the ET via Marpurg is perfectly executed, it will "pass" the PTG tuning exam. Several people I know of have done that. I am not allowed to talk about anyone's actual scores by name unless I have permission to do so but I do know of at least one person who passed the temperament portion of the exam with a perfect 100.

If I were to guess at what Jeff's temperament would have scored, it might be a 98 (only one "error" scored). But that is hypothetical because a Walter Console does not meet exam standards and there was no "Master Tuning" to compare it to. Nevertheless, a slight error such as is heard would probably score an electronic point.

The criterion for whether a scored point can be aurally verified is: Can the note which has a scored point be improved by either sharpening it or flattening it. If any aural checks (including CM3 checks) say that it can be, then the scored point is confirmed.

Let's all remember this: The tuning exam was set up so that only about 50% of tuners can pass it. After some years in use, the exam standards were tightened by adding multipliers to the pitch, temperament, midrange, unisons and stability portions of the exam. Today, it still remains true that only about half of first time attempts at the exam actually pass it.

This means that you don't have to be able to be perfect. No one has ever taken the exam and scored perfect 100's in all 8 categories. If I were to take the exam today or any day, I would not expect to get perfect scores in every category either.

So, one may hold up the PTG exam as being a model for ET and a standard to which one may aspire but the exam itself has tolerances that mean even if someone ever does get a perfect score in all 8 sections of the exam, the resultant tuning would still not be absolutely "perfect".

It is all just as hypothetical as BDB's nearly 20,000 posts are.

All very true. Question remains if it is humanly possible to tune (aurally or with an ETD) fully progressive M3/6's or not, irrespective of the PTG exam standards.

It is a somewhat theoretical issue, at least to me, as I prefer an unequal temperament for the music I like anyways. But for ET aficionados it would be nice to know. After all theory and practice should agree in theory, and preferably also in practice.

Kees

Top
#2188376 - 11/26/13 12:01 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Phil D
This thread is getting really interesting!

I recorded this, with a strip mute in. I was happy with the progression at the time, until I listened back to the recording. I know I can do better, but I'm emboldened to post it now smile

https://soundcloud.com/phil-dickson-1/piano-tuning-1920s-chappell

ugh... those 5ths are really uneven!

I can't download that file, just play it, so I can't analyze it.

Kees

OK, I figured out a way to get the audio off that URL you provided. Here are the results:


M3

C#3F 5.3
DF# 6.0
D#G 6.5
EG# 6.6
FA 6.9
F#A# 6.7
GB 7.3
G#C 8.0
AC# 8.6
A#D 9.5
BD# 9.1
CE 10.7
C#F 10.8
DF# 11.6
D#G 11.6
EG# 9.2
F4A 10.9

M6

C#3A# 6.9
DB 7.0
D#C 6.4
EC# 7.0
FD 8.3
F#D# 8.3
GE 8.6
G#F 8.9
AF# 11.1
A#G 10.2
BG# 9.0
C4A 11.7

m3

C#3E 7.6
DF 7.6
D#F# 9.6
EG 9.5
FG# 10.7
F#A 12.3
GA# 12.7
G#B 11.5
AC 12.5
A#C# 14.1
BD 14.4
CD# 13.9
C#E 16.4
DF 18.2
D#F# 17.7
EG 20.8
FG# 23.5

Kees

Top
#2188392 - 11/26/13 12:37 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
M3

C#3F 5.3
DF# 6.0
D#G 6.5
EG# 6.6
FA 6.9
F#A# 6.7
GB 7.3
G#C 8.0
AC# 8.6
A#D 9.5
BD# 9.1
CE 10.7
C#F 10.8
DF# 11.6
D#G 11.6
EG# 9.2
F4A 10.9

Kees

A rapid perusal of this leads me to believe there must be some really bad octaves.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2188418 - 11/26/13 01:42 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: BDB]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
M3

C#3F 5.3
DF# 6.0
D#G 6.5
EG# 6.6
FA 6.9
F#A# 6.7
GB 7.3
G#C 8.0
AC# 8.6
A#D 9.5
BD# 9.1
CE 10.7
C#F 10.8
DF# 11.6
D#G 11.6
EG# 9.2
F4A 10.9

Kees

A rapid perusal of this leads me to believe there must be some really bad octaves.

You seem to be correct. Here's a mixdown of the two EG# M3's an octave apart:
http://persianney.com/misc/container2.html

Kees

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#2188426 - 11/26/13 02:12 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2331
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
DoelKees, may I ask.....how are you arriving at 1 decimal place analasis of beat rates?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2188437 - 11/26/13 02:56 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Phil D]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Phil D
This thread is getting really interesting!

I recorded this, with a strip mute in. I was happy with the progression at the time, until I listened back to the recording. I know I can do better, but I'm emboldened to post it now smile

https://soundcloud.com/phil-dickson-1/piano-tuning-1920s-chappell

ugh... those 5ths are really uneven!


Hi, thanks for participating.

Is the 4th your "preferred" or "most used" interval when building the temperament ?

Or did you try to get to the M3 by any mean and backtracking ?


Regards
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2188489 - 11/26/13 07:53 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

..... Question remains if it is humanly possible to tune (aurally or with an ETD) fully progressive M3/6's or not, irrespective of the PTG exam standards.

It is a somewhat theoretical issue, at least to me, as I prefer an unequal temperament for the music I like anyways. But for ET aficionados it would be nice to know. After all theory and practice should agree in theory, and preferably also in practice.

Kees


Kees:

You are doing a great service to us all with your analyses. THANK YOU.

Everyone involved with this Topic is probably getting something a little different out of it. I am getting a number of different new perspectives.

One I want to mention is how amazing it is to me that some tuners do not believe that most scaling breaks makes it impossible to have consistent octaves and fifths, and have progressive M3s. Maybe it depends the discernment of RBI progression that the tuner has...

Another that has been confirmed in my mind is that even if it is possible to tune trully progressive M3s & M6s, it isn't practical. Progressive CM3s, with exceptions, yes. Progressive M3s and M6s, no.

But what is the limiting factor? Discernment? Hammer technique? Piano physics? Mental, emotional, physical fatigue? Probably any or all of these in any given tuning session.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2188491 - 11/26/13 07:59 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 587
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

But what is the limiting factor? Discernment? Hammer technique? Piano physics? Mental, emotional, physical fatigue? Probably any or all of these in any given tuning session.


String leveling, hammer mating, false strings, crown/strike point shape, etc...
_________________________
Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2188492 - 11/26/13 08:01 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Mark Davis]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Mark Davis
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

But what is the limiting factor? Discernment? Hammer technique? Piano physics? Mental, emotional, physical fatigue? Probably any or all of these in any given tuning session.


String leveling, hammer mating, false strings, crown/strike point shape, etc...


I have to admit that when notes sound brighter, I tend to percieve the beatrate to be faster. I have to be careful.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2188500 - 11/26/13 08:19 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Mark Davis Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 587
Jeff, one thing that I know that you have often brought out here on PW is, the real world of piano tuning for the "Trench piano tuner" on the "Brute piano.

Though there is a standard that may be executed with fairly good precision on a high end piano, or on the PTG exam piano, this is not real world scenario for many of us.

So we need to view the standard in the light of differing circumstances, quality of piano and the over all condition of the piano in question.

Then have the standard in view, tune the piano as best as we can, and move on.

As you and others have said so often, there are other things to do apart from tuning on our customers pianos (if they will allow us).
_________________________
Mark Davis
PianoForte Technologies
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2188596 - 11/26/13 11:19 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
M3

C#3F 5.3
DF# 6.0
D#G 6.5
EG# 6.6
FA 6.9
F#A# 6.7
GB 7.3
G#C 8.0
AC# 8.6
A#D 9.5
BD# 9.1
CE 10.7
C#F 10.8
DF# 11.6
D#G 11.6
EG# 9.2
F4A 10.9

Kees

A rapid perusal of this leads me to believe there must be some really bad octaves.

You seem to be correct. Here's a mixdown of the two EG# M3's an octave apart:
http://persianney.com/misc/container2.html

Kees

Those are so far off that it makes me suspicious of the recording.

Others should have noticed the problem.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2188612 - 11/26/13 11:45 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: BDB]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
M3

C#3F 5.3
DF# 6.0
D#G 6.5
EG# 6.6
FA 6.9
F#A# 6.7
GB 7.3
G#C 8.0
AC# 8.6
A#D 9.5
BD# 9.1
CE 10.7
C#F 10.8
DF# 11.6
D#G 11.6
EG# 9.2
F4A 10.9

Kees

A rapid perusal of this leads me to believe there must be some really bad octaves.

You seem to be correct. Here's a mixdown of the two EG# M3's an octave apart:
http://persianney.com/misc/container2.html

Kees

Those are so far off that it makes me suspicious of the recording.

Others should have noticed the problem.


BDB:

Could you mention what you noticed? For evaulating octaves from beatrates I compared the m3s to M6s for the 6:3 octave. Were you looking at the M3s and octave apart for variations? I think it is interesting that, once again, the beatrates of the M3s less than double per octave.

Anyway, I don't think it is the recording. G#4 was recorded three different times as part of different intervals. Each time it shows to be low in pitch.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2188616 - 11/26/13 12:01 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
Yes, the beat rates should be very close to double per octave.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2188629 - 11/26/13 12:22 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: BDB]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1541
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: BDB

Those are so far off that it makes me suspicious of the recording.
Others should have noticed the problem.

What do you suspect of the recording? I'm not aware of any recording technique that changes frequency, except perhaps Edison's old cylinders. Or perhaps Phil was cycling while recording.

Kees

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#2188714 - 11/26/13 03:00 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1054
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Yes, if you (or anyone else) would be so kind to record progressive M3/6 in the temperament range I would be grateful. I will believe it when I see it, and I think I'm not the only one.

Thanks,
Kees

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso


Hi Kees, I think you (and those you are hosting in your mind) may well start a new Topic, kind of "I will believe it when I see it", so that here you will make less noise for those who have already seen "it".



Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Hi Kees
[...off topic stuff cut...]
Hi Alfredo.

Kees


Hi dear,

Yes, cut stuff and play digital if you like, but... how about starting a new Topic where you can analyze ad libitum and keep together all the material you get?
.

I'm probably wasting my time by responding, but since we have been considering progressive M3/6 as a possible standard for ET, don't you think determining if this standard is practical by examining if anyone can actually tune to this level of accuracy is on-topic in this thread?

Kees


Hi All.

Hi Kees,

You wrote: ..."I'm probably wasting my time by responding, but since we have been considering progressive M3/6 as a possible standard for ET, don't you think determining if this standard is practical by examining if anyone can actually tune to this level of accuracy is on-topic in this thread?"...

Well, my answer is yes and no. IMO "...examining if anyone can actually tune to that level of accuracy.." (here) may be misleading, due to the premises and perhaps the method.

As a survey or an inquiry, let's imagine two possibilities:

p1- Nobody here is able to provide progressive M3/6;

p2- Some do, some don't.

To make it short, (IMO) in both cases we would remain with a handful of flies, firstly because p1- would not include all tuners on earth, secondly because we do not happen to be able to share a practice that is (at once) adherent to a theoretical model, therefore I do/should not expect "theory (12 root of two) and practice" to agree.

And it sounds like you/we are talking about a "standard" that today cannot represent our actual tunings, in that it refers only to one octave (or little more) and leaves behind SBI's and larger intervals, like 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths. In this sense, the progressive M3/6 proposal appears to be anachronistic, and p2- meaningless.

On the other hand, I perfectly understand that you would like to "see" the so called ET(?) under those evidencies and circumstances, and I would like to make a point:

M3/6 in the temperament octave can be progressive (in my experience), but this - beyond what I wrote above - is the type of thing that perhaps most aural tuners (one way or another) would consider as being "academic"(?). If this is true, you might be asking for something in the wrong place. Hope this explains why I was talking about noise.

Please note, I do believe that your analysis can be very significant, in fact once we manage to elaborate on a reliable and practicable model, I think such a tool will make a big difference.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2188758 - 11/26/13 04:13 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Olek]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Phil D
This thread is getting really interesting!

I recorded this, with a strip mute in. I was happy with the progression at the time, until I listened back to the recording. I know I can do better, but I'm emboldened to post it now smile

https://soundcloud.com/phil-dickson-1/piano-tuning-1920s-chappell

ugh... those 5ths are really uneven!


Hi, thanks for participating.

Is the 4th your "preferred" or "most used" interval when building the temperament ?

Or did you try to get to the M3 by any mean and backtracking ?


Regards


I tune from a ladder of 3rds, C#3F3A3C#4F4A4, placing the 4ths and 5ths between each octave, F#3G#3A#3C4D4E4 then filling in D#, B and G from what's there. I refine each placement using the 3rds progression, and check with 6ths and m3rds.

That attempt obviously isn't very good, BDB is right about the octaves being bad - the initial ladder of 3rds is wrong, so there's no hope for that temperament! I did some corrections at the end of the tuning so I don't think I left that for a customer smile

I'll do another recording on Thursday. The link can now be downloaded if you want to.

What's the prize for the first pristine ET recording? Maybe we should turn it into something physical and give it to the BIPM in Paris! Or is ET an American Imperial standard?
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2188788 - 11/26/13 04:57 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
I keep checking other intervals as I tune octaves. That tends to make everything self-correcting.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2188812 - 11/26/13 05:31 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Phil D]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Phil D
This thread is getting really interesting!

I recorded this, with a strip mute in. I was happy with the progression at the time, until I listened back to the recording. I know I can do better, but I'm emboldened to post it now smile

https://soundcloud.com/phil-dickson-1/piano-tuning-1920s-chappell

ugh... those 5ths are really uneven!


Hi, thanks for participating.

Is the 4th your "preferred" or "most used" interval when building the temperament ?

Or did you try to get to the M3 by any mean and backtracking ?


Regards


I tune from a ladder of 3rds, C#3F3A3C#4F4A4, placing the 4ths and 5ths between each octave, F#3G#3A#3C4D4E4 then filling in D#, B and G from what's there. I refine each placement using the 3rds progression, and check with 6ths and m3rds.

That attempt obviously isn't very good, BDB is right about the octaves being bad - the initial ladder of 3rds is wrong, so there's no hope for that temperament! I did some corrections at the end of the tuning so I don't think I left that for a customer smile

I'll do another recording on Thursday. The link can now be downloaded if you want to.

What's the prize for the first pristine ET recording? Maybe we should turn it into something physical and give it to the BIPM in Paris! Or is ET an American Imperial standard?



Thank you, I was under the impression your 4th are more consistent than the rest. 5 the obviously are not, which is a trouble musically speaking.

I d suggest you use 5th and 4th to verify your first octave.

I do not like so much how it sound with the usual ladder on 3ds now I experimented Chas. It surprised me somehow..

Best regards.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2188822 - 11/26/13 05:54 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Kees:

Here is another if you are willing. smile

https://app.box.com/s/wlpvbnui0zlkqyti8n0m

This is a victorian Ludwig upright that has been restrung. The sound isn't so great because it was recorded from the next room. My dog had to get into the act, too. Break is A#2-B2. Temperment is a D3-A4 P12. First is the M3s, then M6s and then the M6-M17 test.

I don't think I got it. My stability wasn't quite there, I believe. I am going to go stack BBs and clamp them in a vise to relax, now. wink

I was remembering that if a P4 and P5 have a common note on top or bottom and they beat at the same speed, it is about a 1/2 cent error. That is twice as much allowed to ensure chromatic M3s and M6s. Just thought I would mention this in case someone thinks that SBIs aren't important.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2188867 - 11/26/13 06:52 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Kees:

Here is another if you are willing. smile

https://app.box.com/s/wlpvbnui0zlkqyti8n0m


I was remembering that if a P4 and P5 have a common note on top or bottom and they beat at the same speed, it is about a 1/2 cent error. That is twice as much allowed to ensure chromatic M3s and M6s. Just thought I would mention this in case someone thinks that SBIs aren't important.


Nice set of beats !


WHat strikes me is that tuners make so many efforts to obtain those progressive FBI, I wonder if the slow ones are not juste left aside because they try so hard, and forget how important they are.



Edited by Olek (11/26/13 06:58 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2188874 - 11/26/13 07:06 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Phil D]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Phil D
This thread is getting really interesting!

I recorded this, with a strip mute in. I was happy with the progression at the time, until I listened back to the recording. I know I can do better, but I'm emboldened to post it now smile

https://soundcloud.com/phil-dickson-1/piano-tuning-1920s-chappell

ugh... those 5ths are really uneven!


Hi, thanks for participating.

Is the 4th your "preferred" or "most used" interval when building the temperament ?

Or did you try to get to the M3 by any mean and backtracking ?


Regards


I tune from a ladder of 3rds, C#3F3A3C#4F4A4, placing the 4ths and 5ths between each octave, F#3G#3A#3C4D4E4 then filling in D#, B and G from what's there. I refine each placement using the 3rds progression, and check with 6ths and m3rds.

That attempt obviously isn't very good, BDB is right about the octaves being bad - the initial ladder of 3rds is wrong, so there's no hope for that temperament! I did some corrections at the end of the tuning so I don't think I left that for a customer smile

I'll do another recording on Thursday. The link can now be downloaded if you want to.

What's the prize for the first pristine ET recording? Maybe we should turn it into something physical and give it to the BIPM in Paris! Or is ET an American Imperial standard?



With the F A C# F sequence I learned , much 4th are tuned, little 5ths. That was the sense of my question.

The ladder of M3 have little or no influence on the amount of consonance obtained, that is what I discovered on the late.
(consonant intervals octaves, 12ths, 5ths etc)


Edited by Olek (11/26/13 07:08 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2188879 - 11/26/13 07:24 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Olek]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Phil D
This thread is getting really interesting!

I recorded this, with a strip mute in. I was happy with the progression at the time, until I listened back to the recording. I know I can do better, but I'm emboldened to post it now smile

https://soundcloud.com/phil-dickson-1/piano-tuning-1920s-chappell

ugh... those 5ths are really uneven!


Hi, thanks for participating.

Is the 4th your "preferred" or "most used" interval when building the temperament ?

Or did you try to get to the M3 by any mean and backtracking ?


Regards


I tune from a ladder of 3rds, C#3F3A3C#4F4A4, placing the 4ths and 5ths between each octave, F#3G#3A#3C4D4E4 then filling in D#, B and G from what's there. I refine each placement using the 3rds progression, and check with 6ths and m3rds.

That attempt obviously isn't very good, BDB is right about the octaves being bad - the initial ladder of 3rds is wrong, so there's no hope for that temperament! I did some corrections at the end of the tuning so I don't think I left that for a customer smile

I'll do another recording on Thursday. The link can now be downloaded if you want to.

What's the prize for the first pristine ET recording? Maybe we should turn it into something physical and give it to the BIPM in Paris! Or is ET an American Imperial standard?



With the F A C# F sequence I learned , much 4th are tuned, little 5ths. That was the sense of my question.

The ladder of M3 have little or no influence on the amount of consonance obtained, that is what I discovered on the late.
(consonant intervals octaves, 12ths, 5ths etc)


The thirds don't make a difference to the slow beating intervals, that's right. The idea of the sequence is to have three octaves set within which to place the fourths and fifths. I definitely need to concentrate on getting them more even.

How would I use 4ths and 5ths to verify the octaves? I usually use the M3M10 vs m3M6 test.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2188897 - 11/26/13 07:52 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
Yes that is what I did also.
By focusing on how 2 5ths and 2 4ths take their place in the first octave you are beginning with good slow beating intervals .

I now use a 5th that is slower in the bottom than the one up.
Traditionally that is the opposite the high 5th is more active than the low one. (as active as the 4th with common note, as said Upright)
I also listen directly to the octave without checking as I did, and the consistency is as good (the first octave is probably a little smaller despite the beginning of a roll at 2:1.)

That is a little different of "stretch", to me stretch is when the focus is on high partials with less attention to the strength at 2:1 , the octave can easily became a little inconsistent musically speaking then (even if a similar size is used chromatically).
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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