Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards 2 pt question: How long do DPs last? DP & finger fatigue?

1) I'm sure this topic has come up here in the past, but I'm never very successful with PW's search function, so please forgive me if I've missed something recent.

Do DPs start to "wear out" after a certain amount of time? If they do, how long? What happens when they start to wear out? I have a Yamaha Arius 160, I believe iit's 6 years old at this point. I play it pretty much daily. Although I haven't noticed any problems, I was wondering about the part of the keyboard that makes the sound when I play a key.

2) my second question is about DPs and dynamics and speed and fingers. I have been playing piano for 14 years, I had an acoustic for 9 years but had to give it up when we moved and I returned to grad school. I play some nicely maintained grands usually once or twice a week (one is at my lesson). One way that my playing has changed as I've improved is I play faster pieces, and I want more dynamic range that I get on acoustics but not quite on my DP. Recently I've been noticing that I sometimes feel finger/hand fatigue when playing the digital in a way I don't when playing an acoustic. Maybe it's because I practice longer on the digital, but I was wondering if I'm "pounding" the keys on the digital trying to get the responses I get from the acoustics. And I was also wondering if when I play something with a more challenging tempo that the DPs response is less "helpful" compared to the grands I play, and that's making me feel tired. (I often feel like its easier to play fast on the grands).

So I'm sorry to put two topics in one thread, but as I was thinking about this stuff, it occurred to me that rather than my experience being due to a change in my playing, maybe my piano is getting "old" and is less responsive. (Although when I write it out like that, I suspect the more likely answer is that my playing has changed!)

Anyway, I'd apprecite any comments, especially if someone else experiences something like this.

I used to have Arius YDP 161 and I had a problem with early finger fatigue too. I suspect that the keys have very high static weight (by my measurement more than 80g). Because the keys have rather short length to the fulcrum, it gets even worse if you often press a key closer to its centre.

In comparison, my current Kawai CA65 is somewhere around 50-60g and I can play much longer without fatigue.

Regarding "pounding" on the keys too much, have you tried increasing the sound volume?

You write that you feel that the piano feels less responsive. I don't think that's caused by its age - the velocity is measured as time difference between when two on/off pressure sensors are pressed by the key on its way down - as long as they work reliably, the responsivity should stay unchanged over time.

However, there is a great way how to improve responsivity - attach your DP to a computer and buy a software piano like Vintage D. These are not expensive and you receive much better responsivity and amazingly better sound.

DP keys do have problems after a few years, or less.

Just like a piano the felts can squash and harden, so the bottoming becomes harder or noisier.

Usually they loosen up as the grease used to bind the action is moved aside. This also creates more noise.

The rubber, graphite, copper circuit contacts, similar to those used in hand held remote controls, can wear or get dirty resulting in missing or stuck or intermittent notes.

You do hear of some plastic keys breaking, or the plastic to metal hammer interface breaking or the glue giving out.

Concerning fatigue. I find many DP's hard on the finger joints of the hands. I think some of this is due to lack of real escapement. The DP hammer is always pushing back, unlike a piano where it escapes before being caught again. Some do bottom out hard, the Roland's PHAIII always gave me sore hands. Another tip is to ensure the volume is up realistically loud, so no need to pound except for fff or more, but you do need then to learn to play tension free with delicate control of the dynamics - just like on an acoustic in fact.

The most important thing is to set the volume control on your DP at exactly the same level of volume as you'd get on your acoustic when playing at the same 'strength'. Otherwise, you'd unconsciously hit the keys harder when playing on your DP and cause fatigue or pain that way.

But you'd likely find that even after doing that, you can't get the same 'power' at ff (and probably not the same softness at pp either). That's because with all sampled DPs, the dynamic range is restricted to how much of the range of the original acoustic gets sampled, plus maybe some artificial electronic enhancement where the sampling stops - but it can start to sound unrealistic when it sounds like a volume control is just being pushed up when you hit harder. Whereas on real pianos - especially big grands -, you can go to town with pushing fff to extremes, if you have the technique and strength for it. The sound changes - it becomes brighter and harsher with more overtones, as well as louder.

You might just have to get used to the fact that your DP's dynamic and tonal range is restricted, compared to the acoustic grands.

Many DP users, of course, never push their DPs beyond their factory-set dynamic range, especially if they don't play advanced classical music, so they'll never feel that anything is missing.

1. I had my previous DP for 15 years or so. At some point it started having problems with the key sensors, but only one or two at a time. This was repairable (approx $100 including house call). Usually a year or two would pass before it needed another repair. By the time I replaced it, failures were more frequent (twice a year?), and some of the control buttons were flakey. I don't know if this represents the typical DP lifespan.


2. I don't know if it will help, but when I find myself hitting the keys too hard, I switch to harpsichord for a few minutes. That seems to help me lighten my touch. As others have mentioned, the volume setting plays a role. If set too low, you end up playing at the top of the dynamic range with no dynamic room left to grow to a satisfying FF. But if playing with headphones, too high a volume setting has dangers of hearing loss. I also wonder, if when playing with headphones, the perceived volume is less than the actual volume due to the poorer bass of headphones.

I believe this is exactly it. On APs the hammer is very geared up pre-launch to the strings, but after the launch the leverage is quite reduced, so when it bounces off the strings and hits the backcheck it isn't pounding back through the key to your finger.

Leverage ratio is fixed on a DP, so when the "hammer" bounces off the padding, any energy left over comes right back to your finger. I don't know, but I imagine this has injured lots of players.

Thanks for all the comments everyone.

I hadn't thought about the volume, but actually I bet that's a big part of it. I used to play exclusively without headphones, in other words through the speakers. When I play like that, I have the volume set fairly loudish. But recently I've been playing with headphones a lot more because I sometimes can't start practicing until 9:30pm, and I usually practice for more than an hour. I turn the volume down with the headphones because I don't want to destroy my hearing. I hadn't noticed if the fatigue thing happens more when I play with headphones or not, so I'll have to make a point to pay attention to that.

I suspect that it's really a combination of things, I am playing faster and more demanding music, and wanting to be more expressive, so that's one part, and then inevitable limits of a digital compared the very nice acousti pianos I sometimes play, and of course the headphone issue. So even if the piano hasn't changed due to age, my playing has changed and environmental issues (headphones) have changed. I will also try to make an effort not to "pound" when I'm playing (although, in my own defense, I don't feel like I'm pounding when I play an acousitic.)

Also, I began as a beginner on an acoustic, it was an upright, but a very nice upright. And I have always preferred the acoustic response.

I'm sure it would be a nice change in some ways, but I don't want to deal with hooking up a computer to my piano. my piano is in the living room, so there's no way to have a computer set up there permanently, and one of the biggest things that makes it possible for me to continue playing and practicing daily is that all I have to do is sit down and start playing. For people who use software pianos and really like them, this probably sounds just silly, but given my busy schedule, I can't really add any prep and take down time to my piano practice. Also, I don't want to spend any money on anything that is piano-related and digital, because I hope to be able to get an acoustic again in the next few years, and I'm treating this digital as a temporary situation.

Thanks again for all the comments, and if anyone has anything more to add, please do!

You won't damage your hearing by playing using your headphones set at the level equal to that on your grand: for mf, say, bearing in mind that you won't get the fff on your digital that you could on your grand - there will be a limit beyond which you can't go, which is easily reached by any pianist with sufficient technique.

There is a decibel chart you can look at (google decibel loudness comparison chart - I don't know how to post the link to it here). A piano fortissimo is 84 - 103 dB. The loudness level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss is 90 - 95 dB. Normal piano practice is just 60 - 70 dB. You don't say what kind of music you play, but jazz players tend to play at a fairly uniform mf most of the time, whereas classical pianists use a much wider range of dynamics. Even if you're practising a difficult passage of loud chords and octaves (and therefore repeating it ad infinitum) you're not going to keep playing it at a sustained ff - you'll injure yourself long before you damage your hearing.

I play my DP exclusively using headphones, and the volume control is set always to replicate that found on a small grand. I only altered its level twice - when I switched headphones, as they have different impedances and sensitivity. I've been playing on it for an average of three hours a day ever since I bought it three years ago. And my hearing is still as good as ever, though I don't hold back when playing (as opposed to practising), and my DP, being modelled rather than sampled, has a dynamic range pretty close to that of acoustic grands.

So, unless you play by banging ff almost continuously, you're not going to cause any damage to your hearing just by using headphones with volume control set at realistic levels.

Related to some of the posts above, I think real pianos have much less "upweight" (force back on return) compared to the initial resistance when striking a key, whereas on DPs, I think the two are generally basically the same, and I think that can contribute to more fatigue from playing a DP.

ShiroKuro, I have read your post, here:

2 pt question: How long do DPs last? DP & finger fatigue?


1) I'm sure this topic has come up here in the past, but I'm never very successful with PW's search function, so please forgive me if I've missed something recent.

Do DPs start to "wear out" after a certain amount of time? If they do, how long? What happens when they start to wear out? I have a Yamaha Arius 160, I believe iit's 6 years old at this point. I play it pretty much daily. Although I haven't noticed any problems, I was wondering about the part of the keyboard that makes the sound when I play a key.

2) my second question is about DPs and dynamics and speed and fingers. I have been playing piano for 14 years, I had an acoustic for 9 years but had to give it up when we moved and I returned to grad school. I play some nicely maintained grands usually once or twice a week (one is at my lesson). One way that my playing has changed as I've improved is I play faster pieces, and I want more dynamic range that I get on acoustics but not quite on my DP. Recently I've been noticing that I sometimes feel finger/hand fatigue when playing the digital in a way I don't when playing an acoustic. Maybe it's because I practice longer on the digital, but I was wondering if I'm "pounding" the keys on the digital trying to get the responses I get from the acoustics. And I was also wondering if when I play something with a more challenging tempo that the DPs response is less "helpful" compared to the grands I play, and that's making me feel tired. (I often feel like its easier to play fast on the grands).

So I'm sorry to put two topics in one thread, but as I was thinking about this stuff, it occurred to me that rather than my experience being due to a change in my playing, maybe my piano is getting "old" and is less responsive. (Although when I write it out like that, I suspect the more likely answer is that my playing has changed!)

Anyway, I'd apprecite any comments, especially if someone else experiences something like this.

_____

It is a great post.

When you say: Do DPs start to "wear out" after a certain amount of time? If they do, how long? What happens when they start to wear out? I have a Yamaha Arius 160, I believe iit's 6 years old at this point. I play it pretty much daily. Although I haven't noticed any problems, I was wondering about the part of the keyboard that makes the sound when I play a key.

I say: Everything wears out including the human body only when people wear out, they call it dying.

Seriously, though, yes, everything wears out, but what is important is - can they still be repaired - or not - when they wear out? A lot of things today are made to wear out fast so people will just buy a new one rather than try to fix it.

I have a Yamaha clavinova CLP50 that is 25 to 30 years old and still works like new. I have a Yamaha P95 that started making a noise when I press a key just this morning and I an not sure why it is doing that.


When you say: my second question is about DPs and dynamics and speed and fingers. I have been playing piano for 14 years, I had an acoustic for 9 years but had to give it up when we moved and I returned to grad school. I play some nicely maintained grands usually once or twice a week (one is at my lesson). One way that my playing has changed as I've improved is I play faster pieces, and I want more dynamic range that I get on acoustics but not quite on my DP. Recently I've been noticing that I sometimes feel finger/hand fatigue when playing the digital in a way I don't when playing an acoustic. Maybe it's because I practice longer on the digital, but I was wondering if I'm "pounding" the keys on the digital trying to get the responses I get from the acoustics. And I was also wondering if when I play something with a more challenging tempo that the DPs response is less "helpful" compared to the grands I play, and that's making me feel tired. (I often feel like its easier to play fast on the grands).

I say: First of all you know way, way, more about piano playing than I do, because I am a beginner piano player but what I know, is that digital piano are NOT remotely the same as ANY acoustic piano - EVER - because one is an electric computer generated sound and acoustic pianos are 88 plus strings that are hit by a hammer action when you strike the key of the piano - so there is no way possible for the two kinds of pianos be the same - or even okay - just that the acoustic is everything you could dream of and have - and a digital you can play anywhere anytime time because you can use headphones, two women can move it because it weighs less than an acoustic piano. If you have electricity, you can play a digital but if you don't have electricity, you can play an acoustic piano.

I LOVE my 2 digital pianos and I love my baby grand - like children - I love them both, but for different reasons and I would not trade any of them for all the money in the world!

About fingers - fingers are like legs and the rest of the body, it you run too fast, run too long, and you run everyday, too often, you can have fatigue or pain - so it doesn't matter whether you are playing the digital piano and playing fff or you are playing the acousitc piano playing fff - if you play anything too hard, too often, you will get tired and your fingers will get tired.

Well, digitals and acousitic pianos - being different - acoustics are as close to perfection as any piano ever was made - providing they are a well built piano - so they should be easier to play - easier to play fast - sound good.

You say: So I'm sorry to put two topics in one thread, but as I was thinking about this stuff, it occurred to me that rather than my experience being due to a change in my playing, maybe my piano is getting "old" and is less responsive. (Although when I write it out like that, I suspect the more likely answer is that my playing has changed!)

Anyway, I'd appreciate any comments, especially if someone else experiences something like this.

I say: Yes, your playing is changing all the time and my piano playing as a beginner is always changing all the time. My Yam baby grand is 10 years old - secondhand - in beautiful condition - so there are lots of things that make a difference, how the piano is played like the piano being played by a teenager who weighs 300 pounds - he may be playing rock music whereas in my case my baby grand was played by a small 10 year old Chinese girl and I don't think the 10 year old girl played rock music or tried to play the piano hard or damage the piano, but maybe she did!

So in the end, you and I, have to play whatever piano we have and we have to enjoy that piano because it is the only piano we can play on whether it is good, bad, old - it is all we have.

cheers,

3N26YY

Michael, you are very right! I would definitely prefer an acoustic, but the best piano you have is the one you have access to, and I'm very grateful that I have been able to have access to a piano continuously! Someday, I'll get an acoustic, but until then, it's me and YDP

Bennevis, I have to say, I can't imagine that the same decibels have the same impact on the ears whether you're listening through headphones or speakers. I would guess that the same decibel level through headphones will have more of a negative impact on the ears than speakers (or an acoustic instrument). It's been awhile since I've read about the science on headphones and decibel levels, so I'll have to take another look and see what the actual numbers are, as well as the more "subjective" markers (such as whether or not you can hear outside noises through the headphones, I use open ones btw not closed), and whether your ears ring afterwards or not etc.

Try releasing the button that says "harpsichord"

DP's seem to be able to last a good 15 years on average before significant issues develop. Some do better than others - I have boards with Fatar actions known for defects still going almost 20 years later, and I had a Yamaha YDP develop "sluggish key syndrome" after a year of very light use with the key cover down when not in use. The biggest problems people face are LOUD or dead notes, but usually this is a cleanliness issue rather than a mechanical one. All other wear is very gradual, like a car.