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#2158078 - 09/26/13 02:43 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6054
Loc: Rochester MN
rxd,

Wasn't that the instrument that John Phillip Sousa wrote his masterpiece opera Die Zauberalpenhorn?

whistle
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2158103 - 09/26/13 03:25 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rxd]
peekay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 184
Originally Posted By: rxd

And where on earth does anybody get the idea that Pythagorean is a "natural" temperament and what does that mean anyway?

Pythagorean and Just Intonation are musical tunings which correspond to naturally occurring harmonic series.

Originally Posted By: rxd

[...]That surely would be a readily apparent contradiction in terms. So is the idea that there are many forms of just intonation. Just is just.

Wow, no, I can't begin to tell you how wrong that statement is. But, in a way, it might explain why many in this thread have a hard time understanding why any a cappella choir will gravitate to Just Intonation.

Just Intonation is not one tuning or scale. Just Intonation is a system of tunings, all of which correspond to a harmonic series. That is to say, for a particular Just Intonation tuning, every note in that tuning correspond to the same harmonic series.

Mathematically, we can construct a particular Just Intonation tuning by using integer ratios of (small) prime multiples. Since there are many ways we can arrange ratios of these numbers, there are many ways we can construct Just Intonation tunings.

The Pythagorean tuning, for example, is a Just Intonation tuning where the largest prime (N) is limited to 3. So the N=3 ratios in the Pythagorean system are based on powers of 2 and 3.

Another way to construct a (different) Just Intonation tuning is to use primes up to 5 (so the N=5 ratios are powers of 2, 3 and 5). The Ptolemy's Sequence is one example of a N=5 Just Intonation scale (there are many others).

Of course we can construct Just Intonation tunings based on higher prime limits, e.g., M=7, M=11, M=13, etc. Additionally there are also many tunings not based on 12-note scales.

For singers to sing in harmony, sooner or later they will converge on a harmonic series (if not accompanied by a tempered instrument). This is why there is always a pull to Just Intonation, since by definition a collection of notes from a harmonic series forms a Just Intonation tuning.
_________________________
Working on RCM Grade 8

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#2158131 - 09/26/13 04:09 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1579
Loc: Chicagoland
I can see the reason for a strict standard of tuning for certain situations; those where multiple techs are rotated to take care of the same piano. It just seems that it would be easier on both the techs and the piano if the same targets were always used...

In fact, being in a large metro area, there are a few of us that follow each other as different performing groups hire the tuner at the same venue.

There is this one aural tech I follow that I can always tell it was him before me... You might think that I'm going to use an example of how far off from ET he tunes, but it is just the opposite. He must tune with near zero margin for error - just playing chromatic triads, the consistent busyness sticks out from the other ET techs that I follow. (I think the consistency is felt through the ratio of the major thirds beating to the minor thirds beating in a triad - no matter where on the keyboard, the ratio should be the same in ET - tricky to accomplish!)

Last time he followed up on me, he made a point to find me and say "hey, you left it in ET this time for me!" He knows I usually use a really mild WT, but it never is a cause for concern - our seasonal (sometimes weekly) fluctuations are far greater than any few cents difference in the temperament!

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2158179 - 09/26/13 06:24 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
All of our lives, our pitch reference has almost exclusively been a piano, ..., - primarily from a piano.

For a vocalist, I believe that is probably true. Introduction to singing is often in a choral tradition, accompanied by a fixed pitch, keyboard instrument.

But, instrumentalists are trained and 'grow up' without the influence of a fixed pitch instrument. Being accompanied by a piano is a very minor experience compared to being in a band or orchestra. The major influence affecting the concept of intonation is developed through the means of ensemble, rather than tempering intonation to a fixed pitch instrument.


My comment was in response to peekay's post regarding singers and just intonation. Sure, it's different with regards to instrumentalists.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2158257 - 09/26/13 08:41 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: peekay]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: peekay
Originally Posted By: rxd

And where on earth does anybody get the idea that Pythagorean is a "natural" temperament and what does that mean anyway?

Pythagorean and Just Intonation are musical tunings which correspond to naturally occurring harmonic series.

Originally Posted By: rxd

[...]That surely would be a readily apparent contradiction in terms. So is the idea that there are many forms of just intonation. Just is just.

Wow, no, I can't begin to tell you how wrong that statement is. But, in a way, it might explain why many in this thread have a hard time understanding why any a cappella choir will gravitate to Just Intonation.

Just Intonation is not one tuning or scale. Just Intonation is a system of tunings, all of which correspond to a harmonic series. That is to say, for a particular Just Intonation tuning, every note in that tuning correspond to the same harmonic series.

Mathematically, we can construct a particular Just Intonation tuning by using integer ratios of (small) prime multiples. Since there are many ways we can arrange ratios of these numbers, there are many ways we can construct Just Intonation tunings.

The Pythagorean tuning, for example, is a Just Intonation tuning where the largest prime (N) is limited to 3. So the N=3 ratios in the Pythagorean system are based on powers of 2 and 3.

Another way to construct a (different) Just Intonation tuning is to use primes up to 5 (so the N=5 ratios are powers of 2, 3 and 5). The Ptolemy's Sequence is one example of a N=5 Just Intonation scale (there are many others).

Of course we can construct Just Intonation tunings based on higher prime limits, e.g., M=7, M=11, M=13, etc. Additionally there are also many tunings not based on 12-note scales.

For singers to sing in harmony, sooner or later they will converge on a harmonic series (if not accompanied by a tempered instrument). This is why there is always a pull to Just Intonation, since by definition a collection of notes from a harmonic series forms a Just Intonation tuning.


Then why is it that they don't?
Have you listened closely to anything yet?
Is this your own work or what you understand from someone else's work?
There's a lot missing.

Try this;

Write a 3 part progression that goes from Cmajor directly to a chord of E major by means of 2 voices moving in opposite directions by a small minor second and the third voice staying still and then works back to C through a series of dominants. Does your hypothetical choir end up flat, sharp, or in tune? And by how much? Then work it out with the opening progression moving by large minor seconds. How do the results differ? Then do it all again in a minor key. (c# minor to A minor as the opening progression).

You can play with it more by using progressions of just thirds alternating with Pythagorean thirds (is a Pythagorean third a natural interval in and of itself? how would I construct one if I were to sing one?). The combinations are endless.

Then get it sung by real people. 10 seperate groups of 3 people with the random smattering of those with or without what is commonly known as perfect or absolute pitch. That should produce enough variety. What did they eventually gravitate to? Which of your theoretical findings did it agree with?

All fascinating stuff. Have fun with it.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2158322 - 09/26/13 11:18 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
peekay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 184
How absurd. I'm not about to hire world class singers, and strand them in a deserted island for a few weeks to demonstrate what is already known: a convergence to just intonation.

It's easy to be a denier, without zero evidence and only anecdotal observations.

Stating bizarre things like "just is just" doesn't make it right and only shows lack of knowledge.

However, there is ample scientific evidence saying otherwise. The following references came from the last paper, maybe you care to refute all of them?

As the saying goes: "Have fun with it". wink


Alldahl, Per-Gunnar. 2004. Intonation i kör-sång (Stockholm: Gehrmans Musikförlag)
Backus, John. 1969. The acoustical foundations of music (New York: W.W. Norton & Company Inc.)
Barbour, James Murray. 1951. Tuning and temperament: a historical survey (Mineola, NY: Dover Publications Inc.)

Bohrer, Jocelei Cirilo Soares. 2002. Intonational Strategies in Ensemble Singing (London: Ph.D. dissertation, City University)
Brown, Oren. 1996. Discover your voice (San Diego, CA: Singular publishing group)

Butler, David. 1992. The Musician’s Guide to Perception and Cognition (New York: Schirmer Books)

Covey-Crump, Rogers. 1992. ‘Vocal Consort Style and Tuning’ in Companion to Contemporary Musical Thought, II, ed. by J. Paynter and others (London and New York: Routledge Reference)

Devaney, Johanna. 2006. ‘A methodology for the study and modeling of choral intonation practices’, Conference proceeding of the 2006 International Conference on Music Perception and Cognition (Alma Mater Studiorum University of Bologna)
Devaney, Johanna and Daniel P. W. Ellis. 2008. ‘An Empirical Approach to Studying Intonation Tendencies in Polyphonic Vocal Performances’ in Journal of interdisciplinary music studies, 2/1&2
Duffin, Ross W.. 2007. How equal temperament ruined harmony (and why you should care) (New York: W.W. Norton & Co. Inc.)
Goebl, Werner and Caroline Palmer. 2009. ‘Synchronization of timing and motion among performing musicians’ in Music Perception, 26/5, (CA: University of California Press), pp. 427-38

Hagerman B. and J. Sundberg. 1980. ‘Fundamental frequency adjustment in barbershop singing’ in Speech Transmission Laboratory Quarterly Progress and Status Report (STL-QPSR 21-1/1980), pp. 28-42
Helmholtz, Herman L. F.. 1954. On the Sensations of tone as a physiological basis for the theory of music, 2nd edition of the 4th German ed. of 1877 (New York: Dover Publications Inc.)
Larson, Steve. 2004. ‘Musical Forces and Melodic Expectations: Comparing Computer Models and Experimental Results’ in Music Perception, 21/4 (CA: University of California Press), pp. 457-99
Lerdahl, Fred. 2001. Tonal Pitch Space (New York: Oxford University Press)

Lerdahl, F. and C. L. Krumhansl. 2007. ‘Modelling tonal tension’ in Music Perception, 24/4 (CA: University of California Press), pp. 329-66
Loosen, Franz. 1995. ‘The Effect of Musical Experience on the Conception of Accurate Tuning’ in Music Perception, 12/3 (CA: University of California Press), pp. 291-306
Mandelbaum, Joel. 1974. ‘Review: Toward the Expansion of Our Concepts of Intonation’ in Perspectives of New Music, 13/1 (Seattle, WA: University of Washington), pp. 216-26
MacClintock, Carol. 1979. Readings in the history of music in performance (Bloomington and London: Indiana university press)
Morley, Thomas. 1597. A plain & easy introduction to practical music, ed. by R. Alec Harman (New York: W. W. Norton Company)
Norden, Norris Lindsay. 1936. ‘A new theory of Untempered Music’ in The Musical Quarterly, XXII, pp. 217-36

Plomp, Reinier. 1976. Aspects of Tone Sensation (London: Academic Press)

Tosi, Pier Francesco. 1747. Observations on the Florid Song; or, Sentiments on the Ancient and Modern Singers, translated by Mr. Galliard (London: J. Wilcox)
Schön, Donald. 1987. Educating the reflective practitioner (San-Francisco, CA: Jossey-Bass)
Seashore, Carl E.. 1938. Psychology of Music (New York: Dover Publications Inc.)

Sundberg, Johan. 2001. The Science of the singing voice (Stockholm: Proprius förlag)

Vurma, A. and J. Ross. 2006. ‘Production and perception of musical intervals’ in Music Perception, 23/4 (CA: University of California Press) pp. 331-44
_________________________
Working on RCM Grade 8

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#2158361 - 09/27/13 01:25 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Here' my argument for why ET is the logical standard for tuning. Using the analogy of a target, consider the following:
We have 12 targets to represent the 12 notes of our temperament.
-Imagine each tuned note represents an arrow on its target.
-For the sake of this argument let's assume that if a note is on the target it will be basically unnoticeable to a client. Perhaps if they are a connoisseur they may recognize the tuning as not being ET, but there will be no wolfs.
-If we tune a strict equal temperament the arrows will all be in the bulls eye area of the target.

Here's the problem with the well tunings: Some of those arrows will be closer to the edges of the target. Humidity change and use will cause some of those arrows to drift. Once they drift off the target they become noticeable to the client as being out of tune.

With ET the notes will stay on target for longer. With changes in weather, the tuning will change, but it will sort of morph into some sort of well-tuning before it becomes noticeably out.

In other words with ET you get some of both worlds - the balanced, symmetrical sound of ET, which naturally evolves into a WT before deteriorating into just plain out of tune.

With UT, you will never experience the ET sound, and with humidity change the tuning will become noticeably off sooner.

As a professional tuner, one of my main concerns is stability. Since ET is arguable more stable than UT, it is a more logical choice for the standard tuning.


Edited by rysowers (09/27/13 01:27 AM)
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2158369 - 09/27/13 02:04 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Peekay,
The whole world says so is not an answer.
The OP asked If there should be a standard.
The standard is currently ET
Why?
The whole world says so.
Many of us here do not accept that as an answer. Particularly those of us who listen intently.

I don't think it absurd to ask you for your own personal listening experience. To rely on the opinion of others is living vicariously, don't you think?

The reference to a desert island is your invention. Reduction ad absurdam is, among other cheap arguing techniques, often exposed in this forum for what it is. Getting a bunch of singers together locally should not be difficult for someone of your apparent experience and worldliness nor should the mathematics be beyond you. The exercise I gave you was based on something that occurred on a broadcast some years ago that has intrigued me for many years.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2158376 - 09/27/13 02:17 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rysowers]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Here' my argument for why ET is the logical standard for tuning. Using the analogy of a target, consider the following:
We have 12 targets to represent the 12 notes of our temperament.
-Imagine each tuned note represents an arrow on its target.
-For the sake of this argument let's assume that if a note is on the target it will be basically unnoticeable to a client. Perhaps if they are a connoisseur they may recognize the tuning as not being ET, but there will be no wolfs.
-If we tune a strict equal temperament the arrows will all be in the bulls eye area of the target.

Here's the problem with the well tunings: Some of those arrows will be closer to the edges of the target. Humidity change and use will cause some of those arrows to drift. Once they drift off the target they become noticeable to the client as being out of tune.

With ET the notes will stay on target for longer. With changes in weather, the tuning will change, but it will sort of morph into some sort of well-tuning before it becomes noticeably out.

In other words with ET you get some of both worlds - the balanced, symmetrical sound of ET, which naturally evolves into a WT before deteriorating into just plain out of tune.

With UT, you will never experience the ET sound, and with humidity change the tuning will become noticeably off sooner.

As a professional tuner, one of my main concerns is stability. Since ET is arguable more stable than UT, it is a more logical choice for the standard tuning.

Ryan, I totally agree.
However, one of the points of WT is that the harmony becomes closer to acoustically in tune as the home key is approached. That WT's become further from the commonly accepted ideals of melodic intonation as the home keys are approached is being conveniently ignored here for the time being.
The seemingly random nature of ET going out of tune would make it a mere UT.

I agree that the finer the tuning is of any temperament, the more almost constant attention to keep it there.

_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2158377 - 09/27/13 02:18 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rxd]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Peekay, I'm afraid the mathematics of this is quite beyond me.

When it comes to setting a standard for tuning a piano, are you saying that ET is unsuitable because it is not a musical tuning which corresponds to a naturally occurring harmonic series?

Are there any such series that could be used as a practical basis for piano tunings?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2158803 - 09/27/13 08:51 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Hmm... regarding Ryan's post, my logic tells me that it should be that way. The wider M3's should make it prone to disaster, in case the humidity changes by chance happens to widen it even further.

But my personal experience is quite different, my UT tunings stay acceptable longer than my ET's during the challenging humidity sways. I can't explain this. Maybe they are pulling themselves back towards the ET that they have grown accustomed to earlier? In that case, I will start encouraging ET tunings, then I can come in and do the personal painting grin

Regarding choirs, solo singers, string quartets, orchestras and so on, they intonate to the harmony, of course. If a piano is included, then that's the given reference point, which other musicians succeed to a varying degree in intonating to.

If there is no fixed pitch, all the intervals will be intonated from a musical point of view, not from our compromise (=temperament). There will be 3rds that are wider and narrower than ET, and there will be some ET 3rds, too. They will actually be all over the place.

As Isaac says, there is definitely a tendency to brighten (=widen) major 3rds if the harmony calls for it, especially on dominants and secondary dominants, in order to make the half step up to the tonic as small as possible. On the other hand, it's quite normal to use a considerably narrower major 3rd (approaching just) on the tonic chord ending a cadence, for example.

rxd -> I like your forgotten perfect pitch at A=457! At the pace we are moving up in the rest of Europe (england is still largely 440, isn't it), soon you will be right on target smile
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2158841 - 09/27/13 11:50 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: pppat]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: pppat
Hmm... regarding Ryan's post, my logic tells me that it should be that way. The wider M3's should make it prone to disaster, in case the humidity changes by chance happens to widen it even further.

But my personal experience is quite different, my UT tunings stay acceptable longer than my ET's during the challenging humidity sways. I can't explain this. Maybe they are pulling themselves back towards the ET that they have grown accustomed to earlier? In that case, I will start encouraging ET tunings, then I can come in and do the personal painting grin

Regarding choirs, solo singers, string quartets, orchestras and so on, they intonate to the harmony, of course. If a piano is included, then that's the given reference point, which other musicians succeed to a varying degree in intonating to.

If there is no fixed pitch, all the intervals will be intonated from a musical point of view, not from our compromise (=temperament). There will be 3rds that are wider and narrower than ET, and there will be some ET 3rds, too. They will actually be all over the place.

As Isaac says, there is definitely a tendency to brighten (=widen) major 3rds if the harmony calls for it, especially on dominants and secondary dominants, in order to make the half step up to the tonic as small as possible. On the other hand, it's quite normal to use a considerably narrower major 3rd (approaching just) on the tonic chord ending a cadence, for example.

rxd -> I like your forgotten perfect pitch at A=457! At the pace we are moving up in the rest of Europe (england is still largely 440, isn't it), soon you will be right on target smile


If anything, the real burning issue of the day is still pitch. it hasn't been about temperament for many generations. It is a real issue here. The International Proms series uses 3 x 9' pianos in the Royal Albert Hall that are kept at a nominal 440 with the usual slight upward variance for practical purposes, and another 3 at 442-3. With the expense of moving them in and out of off site storage every few days for visiting orchestras, this will easily double the cost of supplying pianos over the season. That is only the main venue, there are many others.

When British orchestras tour, there is a sentence in the contract that is more of a reminder of the pitch difference. Orchestral musicians here are far more practical in this matter, most of them having a very active and varied freelance life outside the orchestra.

455-6-7 was an accepted concert pitch here and in parts of America, certainly NY, until 1895. The original proms were funded by an impresario/singer and his Harley St. Throat doctor on condition they used 439 at 65 degrees F. The way had been prepared by the new philharmonic changing a few years before. The record shows that the musicians readily accepted it.
457 persisted in all levels of the British brass band tradition until the mid 1960's. That change was accompanied by much rancour but the major manufacturers of instruments simply ceased making them in two different pitches.

I mention all this in order to put this temperamental (sic) argument into some sort of perspective.

The vocal intonation issue. I used to have much experience of opera both in rehearsal and performance. I entertained the possibility that the resonances of the theatre may have been an influence because I noticed differences in singers intonation between rehearsals in an empty theatre and a full one. The difficulties in hearing the orchestra from the stage are well known.

The choir director on the international recordings and broadcasts of christmas music in the British cathedral tradition was known for his exageration of melodic intonation to the relatively inexperienced choirboys, His lay clerks used to sing an upward scale, jokingly, that went so wildly sharp on the first 3 notes that they had to go down a semitone for the 4th degree of the scale. Judging by his sterling recordings and broadcasts, his teaching method worked. I have had the pleasure of singing in the same tradition under the direction of his successor. All this also probably has much to do with cathedral acoustics.

There was much consternation that I have no direct experience of when organ builders started inventing their own temperaments, some of them are far to extreme for modern practical use. There is an otherwise fine organ in the hall that I am usually given to deliver my discussions on tuning that I use in F# for a couple of excrutiating measures and then play a sequence from Bach that goes through the keys in order to demonstrate how it gets more in tune as the mother key is approached.

I totally agree, Pat, the complexities of flexible pitch intonation, accompanied and unaccompanied cannot be reduced to any formula.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2158849 - 09/28/13 12:20 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Rxd, do you know Andrew Sinclair, perchance?
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2158877 - 09/28/13 01:43 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Rxd, do you know Andrew Sinclair, perchance?



Yes. I assume you mean the opera director/producer but for those who know him, there could only ever be one Andrew. He's the quintessential opera director that central casting would send.
Our paths used to converge often at the Dartington international opera, mainly, but I haven't seen him since that ceased to exist. I can still picture him now.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2158887 - 09/28/13 02:04 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rxd]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Rxd, do you know Andrew Sinclair, perchance?



Yes. I assume you mean the opera director/producer but for those who know him, there could only ever be one Andrew. He's the quintessential opera director that central casting would send.
Our paths used to converge often at the Dartington international opera, mainly, but I haven't seen him since that ceased to exist. I can still picture him now.


He's directed several operas I've been in here in San Diego. Yes, absolutely, there can only ever be one Andrew! laugh My first show with him was when we did the Covent Garden production of Lohengrin in 2000.



Me as a Teutonic knight...

He and I stay in touch on Facebook, when he's not here directing.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2158910 - 09/28/13 04:28 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6338
Loc: France
yesterday I tuned a vertical piano that have been delivered in june.

on the whole instrument I had to really turn 4 or 5 tuning pins (foot moved)

On the others I was under the impression I was working in fine tuning mode of a radio reciver or similar micrometric fine knob.

that was possible because it is easy for me to hear if a note is in the mood with others or no (base primarly on octaves but octaves serve to detection, other intervals confirm , with eventually 5th tuned directly)

I could not do that on an UT unless I where trained to recognize the level of distance from tempering of each interval.

In ET, the "map" of the tuning is easy to build.

Not an argument but my tunings are so stable that customers do not call me, only on recent pianos I experiment pitch corrections.

The context of course is moderate playing. Working for heavy handed and for intense playing mean something else but even in schools our work can be made easier a lot when stability is envisaged not only for unison but for the whole structure.

Some time ago I noticed as some (rare) old and experienced colleagues where obtaining very good tuning in schools, while the opposite is more the norm usually, and school pianos are really often approximate.

I had a good firm pin setting, did not had trouble in concerts with that, and did simply not imagine it could be made firmer.
I know today how that can be attained. goes better with ET. (sorry for the OT)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2158942 - 09/28/13 07:19 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Rxd, do you know Andrew Sinclair, perchance?



Yes. I assume you mean the opera director/producer but for those who know him, there could only ever be one Andrew. He's the quintessential opera director that central casting would send.
Our paths used to converge often at the Dartington international opera, mainly, but I haven't seen him since that ceased to exist. I can still picture him now.


He's directed several operas I've been in here in San Diego. Yes, absolutely, there can only ever be one Andrew! laugh My first show with him was when we did the Covent Garden production of Lohengrin in 2000.



Me as a Teutonic knight...

He and I stay in touch on Facebook, when he's not here directing.



All you need is one of Marty's zauberalpenhorns. (I knew there'd be a tie-in sooner or later)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2158971 - 09/28/13 09:12 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6054
Loc: Rochester MN
Didn't the Sandy Eggo Opera mount a production of The Magic Tuba?
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2158986 - 09/28/13 09:34 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rxd]
pppat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1195
Loc: Jakobstad, Finland
Originally Posted By: rxd


All you need is one of Marty's zauberalpenhorns. (I knew there'd be a tie-in sooner or later)


grin
_________________________
Patrick Wingren, RPT

Senior Lecturer (jazz piano, composition, music theory, conducting) @ Novia University of Applied Sciences, Jakobstad, Finland
- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.

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#2159022 - 09/28/13 10:59 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6338
Loc: France
Is not the thing he hold in left hand a sort of tuba?

OK may be just the pic is unclear,
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2159026 - 09/28/13 11:03 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6054
Loc: Rochester MN
Isaac,

Think of Mozart and Sousa at the same time and you will understand.

It's a joke!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159041 - 09/28/13 11:44 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1298
Loc: Conway, AR USA

Die Zauberflöte mit Sousaphon. Marking my calendar.
_________________________
Bob W.
Piano technician, retired
Conway, AR

Piano Technic Blog

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#2159091 - 09/28/13 02:07 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
If you knew Sousa like I know Sousa
Oh. Oh. Oh what a gal.

Praps even more obscure.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159112 - 09/28/13 02:53 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Didn't the Sandy Eggo Opera mount a production of The Magic Tuba?


Oh yes, several times.

I am NOT posting the photo of me in costume for that one...





Edited by OperaTenor (09/28/13 02:53 PM)
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
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#2159114 - 09/28/13 02:54 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: bkw58]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: bkw58

Die Zauberflöte mit Sousaphon. Marking my calendar.


Papageno's aria, accompanied by sousaphone...

Oy...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2159139 - 09/28/13 03:24 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6054
Loc: Rochester MN
Tee-Hee-Hee - I was in the audience.

Here's the basso tubaralis soloist:



And here's the chorus finale:

_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159277 - 09/28/13 06:49 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
In WW1 they used huge ear trumpets just like that to listen for enemy aircraft before radar. Is that what he's using that Tuba for?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159282 - 09/28/13 06:54 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6054
Loc: Rochester MN
rxd - you must be hooked on Qi also!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159312 - 09/28/13 07:18 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
rxd - you must be hooked on Qi also!


Yes. Is it on PBS? Those stations kept me in touch all the time I was living over there. There was a station here broadcasting "Prairie home Companion" but I can't seem to find it any more. That was always a reminder of Sunday afternoons in America either driving or sitting in the garden listening to the radio.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159319 - 09/28/13 07:28 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6054
Loc: Rochester MN
Well, actually Saturday afternoons for PHC. Lake Woebegone is fairly close to me.

Qi is found on YouTube and quickly posted after it airs on BBC. I'm enjoying the K series, as always.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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