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#2188930 - 11/26/13 08:53 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Can you be more precise, using note names to describe the exact intervals you are talking about? As usual, I think I get the gist of what you are trying to tell me, but it's impossible to be sure because you're so vague with your terminology.

eg. for A3A4, the A3D4 fourth should have slightly more of a beat than the A3E4 fifth, whilst at the same time the D4A4 fifth should have slightly less of a beat than the E4A4 fifth. This doesn't really help though. But I remember what you are describing from the CHAS instructions - D4A4 should be a tiny bit purer than A3E4, whilst A3D4 should beat a tiny bit faster than E4A4.

This is way off topic, especially introducing something from CHAS. I do apologise, I'm sure alfredo will jump all over this!
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2188933 - 11/26/13 08:57 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Olek]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Kees:

Here is another if you are willing. smile

https://app.box.com/s/wlpvbnui0zlkqyti8n0m


I was remembering that if a P4 and P5 have a common note on top or bottom and they beat at the same speed, it is about a 1/2 cent error. That is twice as much allowed to ensure chromatic M3s and M6s. Just thought I would mention this in case someone thinks that SBIs aren't important.


Nice set of beats !


WHat strikes me is that tuners make so many efforts to obtain those progressive FBI, I wonder if the slow ones are not juste left aside because they try so hard, and forget how important they are.



Thank you, but the jury is still out on how progressive they are.

The difference in cents between an RBI beating as it should and beating as fast as the next one chromatically is about 1 cent. But the difference between an SBI beating as it should and as fast as the next one higher is only about 1/7 cent. This is because the SBIs are 7 times as just as the RBIs (2 cents vs. 14 cents.) Contiguous SBIs have about a 1/2 cent difference.

Related to this is when a 4th and a 5th have a common top or bottom note. There should be a difference in the beatrates. If not, there is about a 1/2 cent error. And maybe the piano will not cooperate in being tuned this fine, but it can give an indication about what is going on with the RBIs.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2188942 - 11/26/13 09:46 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1707
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Kees:

Here is another if you are willing. smile

https://app.box.com/s/wlpvbnui0zlkqyti8n0m

This is a victorian Ludwig upright that has been restrung. The sound isn't so great because it was recorded from the next room. My dog had to get into the act, too. Break is A#2-B2. Temperment is a D3-A4 P12. First is the M3s, then M6s and then the M6-M17 test.

I don't think I got it. My stability wasn't quite there, I believe. I am going to go stack BBs and clamp them in a vise to relax, now. wink

I was remembering that if a P4 and P5 have a common note on top or bottom and they beat at the same speed, it is about a 1/2 cent error. That is twice as much allowed to ensure chromatic M3s and M6s. Just thought I would mention this in case someone thinks that SBIs aren't important.


M6 3.4
M17 3.6

M3

D3F# 5.7
D#G 5.4
EG# 6.9
FA 6.7
F#A# 8.1
GB 9.3
G#C 9.0
AC# 8.6
A#D 9.5
BD# 9.1
CE 10.6
C#F 11.9
DF# 10.4
D#G 10.4
EG# ?
F4A woof

M6

D3B 7.8
D#C 7.3
EC# 7.8
FD 7.8
F#D# 9.2
GE 10.3
G#F 10.4
AF# ?
A#G 9.2
BG# 10.8
C4A 12.3

For some intervals the beats are very faint, while for others they are crystal clear, even when your dog joins in, see example below (G#F-AF#). Maybe it is possible to tune them progressively on a high quality concert grand.


Kees
PS Note how precise your dog is on pitch!


Edited by DoelKees (11/26/13 09:48 PM)

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#2188955 - 11/26/13 10:39 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3196
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I don't know where this thread has been going lately but I just got an e-mail tonight after a very long day taking care of all the demand for piano service right before Thanksgiving. Last week, I had a young man who lives in a town about 40 miles away come to the house in his neighborhood where I was working. The owner of the house and piano was gracious enough to allow the young man named Seth to observe me tuning.

Seth had purchased the cheap correspondence course we all know about but whose name will not be mentioned for obvious reasons. It is the one that still provides a cheap tuning hammer, a C Fork and a 4ths & 5ths sequence for temperament but no RBI checks. Nobody but nobody who ever reads that material can ever produce anything near to what might pass for ET! I had been a victim of it myself, so I know how it goes.

I had seen so many people try to take the tuning exam and come up with such wacky results that 10 years ago, I decided to try to do something about it. It had to start with the CM3's, no question in my mind about that! What I wrote was not directed at people who had actually learned to tune an acceptable temperament using 4ths & 5ths, mind you, it was directed at people who had tried repeatedly and failed badly.

In 2006, Jim Coleman, Sr. had seen what I had written and recommended me as the tuning tutor at the PTG convention. I took on as many students as I could fit in, more than were scheduled and even during some night sessions. For most of the students, the CM3's were a new concept.

After the initial CM3's, one can find the next note to be tuned by remembering the phrase, "Up a 3rd, up a 3rd, down a 5th". I know there are some people who like to use 4ths. The sequence I advocate, however provides at least one check at each new note tuned and many more quickly become available.

When a problem does arise, it is not a matter of "backing up" through the sequence but going back to previously tuned notes and adjusting the tempering until the problem at hand is resolved. Simply "backing up" may only create more cumulative error.

So, anyway, I got this note from Seth tonight and here is what he said:

Quote:
Mr. Bremmer, I had almost given up on aural tuning and am amazed at how well this system works for me. Every time I set the temperament with my strobe tuner, further tweaking was always necessary and I felt like a slave to the machine. Furthermore, I once thought it may be impossible for me to take the PTG exam as counting beats seemed confusing and my results always discordant. Though I am still a humble layman, I have gained a new confidence that eventually I will master this in order to join the guild. Thank you for your insight and thank you for letting me audit your skill the other day.
Happy thanksgiving to you sir.

Seth B...


Seth apparently took it to heart what I told him which was not to count beats but to compare them. There is a big difference! The piano itself will indeed tell you when you have it right. Many beginners say they can't "hear" beats but I have never found one for whom that was actually true. They can hear them as well as any experienced tuner. They just need to have the right information about what to do with them.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2189081 - 11/27/13 07:38 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Thanks, Kees:

OK, I now know that I am not capable of tuning chromatic M3s and M6s. Even correcting B3, it is still not quite there. B3 must have crept up. I remember checking the FD/GB inside outside test.

But I notice with correcting B3 the CM3s are progressive and the inferred cm3s are also progressive. By inferred cm3s I mean the M6s a m3 apart would be progressive. G4 is a little low, too. I see this as partly a stability and partly a discernment issue, not a sequence problem. I think I can reliably discern RBI beatrates two, but not one semitone apart.

So how accurate IS Pal's (Paladin) pitch? Someone will wonder so I will mention he is 3/4 beagle 1/4 blue tick, red and white with ticking, 12 years old, still hunts like a pup, and then pays for it that night being stiff and sore.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2189082 - 11/27/13 07:46 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
I don't know where this thread has been going lately but I just got an e-mail tonight after a very long day taking care of all the demand for piano service right before Thanksgiving. Last week, .....



Gosh, I hope this Topic doesn't go down the anecdote trail. I think we could get a pretty good answer to the question of beatrate discernment and tuning accuracy with more audio samples.

I think the relationship between the various intervals will be part of this, but no one sequence has claim to using these better than another, as long as they all are used.

It always has bothered me, Bill, that you are such an adherent to CM3s and then dismiss the M6/M3 outside/inside test. I doubt that you use or teach the use of all available tests.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2189100 - 11/27/13 08:32 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3196
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Quote:
It always has bothered me, Bill, that you are such an adherent to CM3s and then dismiss the M6/M3 outside/inside test. I doubt that you use or teach the use of all available tests.


I don't dismiss the value of the inside 3rd/outside 6th test at all. After each of the students I taught in 2006, Jim Coleman, Sr. would come in to test the temperament and that was the first test he used and often found no errors at all or a slight one in some cases. The same error could be confirmed in any number of other ways: CM3's of course, chromatic M3's or m3's, a 4th too pure and a corresponding wobbly 5th or vice-versa, etc.

You cannot use the inside 3rd/outside 6th test until you have some inside 3rds and outside 6ths to test! It is therefore most valuable as a final check rather than one which can be used early on or to check progress while constructing the temperament.

If you construct a temperament using only a 4ths & 5ths sequence, how many notes do you have to tune until you finally have an inside 3rd and outside 6th to listen to? Suppose that test confirmed apparent equality but both intervals were either too fast or too slow to fit the rest of the scheme. Then, what did it prove? Suppose it confirms inequality. Then which notes to you move to correct it?

As for anecdotal evidence, if one or two people took the time to write to me and tell me how well the material I had taught them worked for them while no others ever did or all the rest said it didn't work for them so they tried something else and had better success, that would be anecdotal.

If on the other hand, I get such immediate and unsolicited feedback from so many people, often those who just had found my material on my website and took the time and effort to write to me to tell me that they had finally found a method that made sense and actually worked, it appears to me to be a definite trend.

Many such people have gone on to take and pass the PTG tuning exam. There has never been anyone who told me that my material didn't work for them but they found the solution in a book that was written 100 years ago that had all the information they needed. If that happened, it certainly would be anecdotal.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2189132 - 11/27/13 10:07 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
anecdote (plural anecdotes)

1. A short account of an incident, often humorous.
2. An account which supports an argument, but which is not supported by scientific or statistical analysis.
3. A previously untold secret account of an incident.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2189134 - 11/27/13 10:16 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Bill:

This is a quote from a post you made:

"I also never depended on the "inside M3, outside M6" test because theoretically, these are not truly equal beating but only quasi equal beating."

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1482971/My%20tuning%20exam%20experience.html
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2189142 - 11/27/13 10:31 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3877
Loc: Rockford, IL
Jeff, I may have missed something, but, "never depended" and "don't dismiss" are very different in meaning, and not at all mutually exclusive.

I'm not trying to fan flames, here. In fact, I'm hoping for... gentle answers that turn away wrath. smile

--Andy
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2189150 - 11/27/13 10:48 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Phil D]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1060
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Can you be more precise, using note names to describe the exact intervals you are talking about? As usual, I think I get the gist of what you are trying to tell me, but it's impossible to be sure because you're so vague with your terminology.

eg. for A3A4, the A3D4 fourth should have slightly more of a beat than the A3E4 fifth, whilst at the same time the D4A4 fifth should have slightly less of a beat than the E4A4 fifth. This doesn't really help though. But I remember what you are describing from the CHAS instructions - D4A4 should be a tiny bit purer than A3E4, whilst A3D4 should beat a tiny bit faster than E4A4.

This is way off topic, especially introducing something from CHAS. I do apologise, I'm sure alfredo will jump all over this!


Yes, :-) I do not think this is the right place to talk about sequences, methods and/or checks.

Please, Phil, refer to the "...Pre-par-a(s)tory..." thread, there I can write more. Here I will correct one passage only:

When you say..."...whilst A3D4 should beat a tiny bit faster than E4A4...", it is the other way round, A3-D4 beats slower (close to 1bps)* than E4-A4 (close to 3.5bps)*. This is fundamental, as well as the relation between the first five intervals, i.e. two 5ths (overlapped), two 4ths and the A3-A4 octave.

* = tuning mid-strings.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2189245 - 11/27/13 02:13 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1707
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
So how accurate IS Pal's (Paladin) pitch? Someone will wonder so I will mention he is 3/4 beagle 1/4 blue tick, red and white with ticking, 12 years old, still hunts like a pup, and then pays for it that night being stiff and sore.

I'll be happy to analyze more recordings of your dog. Perhaps dog assisted tuning is the way to ultimate perfection. After all compared to a dog's hearing we are practically deaf.

Kees

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#2189256 - 11/27/13 02:38 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
So how accurate IS Pal's (Paladin) pitch? Someone will wonder so I will mention he is 3/4 beagle 1/4 blue tick, red and white with ticking, 12 years old, still hunts like a pup, and then pays for it that night being stiff and sore.

I'll be happy to analyze more recordings of your dog. Perhaps dog assisted tuning is the way to ultimate perfection. After all compared to a dog's hearing we are practically deaf.

Kees


I have always heard fainter noises than my dog. But that is amplitude, not frequency... But what he understands best is musical emotion. He knows when I figure out how and what emotion to put into a piece. THEN he starts singing along. And when I tell him that is enough, he quiets down.

Well, they train dogs to use their sense of smell. Why not their hearing?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2189262 - 11/27/13 02:54 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3196
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Well Jeff besides the fact that that the inside 3rd outside 6th test is technically quasi equal beating, the same four pairs of intervals beat equally (or apparently so) in the EBVT III. So, I guess that make it a "standard" temperament if that is so important. The same four pairs of intervals could beat equally in Reverse Well too. So, no, I don't depend on that test because it would only be redundant to other tests performed before it.

You did not answer my question: When do you use it? How many notes do you have to speculate upon the right amount of tempering before you even have one pair of intervals to listen to? Even if they are equal beating, how do you know they are not too fast or too slow at that point with respect to how the whole temperament should work out? When I get the G3-B3 M3 and the F3-D4 M6 tuned in the EBVT, those pairs are equal beating. If I tuned all of those intervals too fast they might still be equal beating. So of what value is that test in constructing a temperament? I never saw any at all.

How many times does it take for people to write to me and tell me that the material I wrote has helped them before it becomes "scientific"? How many times have you seen anyone who is learning piano tuning say that they found all the information they needed to know in the Braide-White book and went on to pass the PTG tuning exam with what they learned from that book alone?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2189289 - 11/27/13 04:16 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2365
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Well Jeff besides the fact that that the inside 3rd outside 6th test is technically quasi equal beating, the same four pairs of intervals beat equally (or apparently so) in the EBVT III. So, I guess that make it a "standard" temperament if that is so important. The same four pairs of intervals could beat equally in Reverse Well too. So, no, I don't depend on that test because it would only be redundant to other tests performed before it.

You did not answer my question: When do you use it? How many notes do you have to speculate upon the right amount of tempering before you even have one pair of intervals to listen to? Even if they are equal beating, how do you know they are not too fast or too slow at that point with respect to how the whole temperament should work out? When I get the G3-B3 M3 and the F3-D4 M6 tuned in the EBVT, those pairs are equal beating. If I tuned all of those intervals too fast they might still be equal beating. So of what value is that test in constructing a temperament? I never saw any at all.

How many times does it take for people to write to me and tell me that the material I wrote has helped them before it becomes "scientific"? How many times have you seen anyone who is learning piano tuning say that they found all the information they needed to know in the Braide-White book and went on to pass the PTG tuning exam with what they learned from that book alone?


Bill, could you please elaborate on what you eactly mean by the terms, "quasi" and "apparantly" when reffering to how intervals beat. I was not aware that beating intervals could have another beat rate in an different dimension outside of this one we are hearing them in. Is it possible that you meant to state that its not necessarily important to the quality of the temperament if they are a little off the theoretical ideals, meaning there are more important intervals your looking at instead?
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2189327 - 11/27/13 05:42 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: UnrightTooner]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
So how accurate IS Pal's (Paladin) pitch? Someone will wonder so I will mention he is 3/4 beagle 1/4 blue tick, red and white with ticking, 12 years old, still hunts like a pup, and then pays for it that night being stiff and sore.

I'll be happy to analyze more recordings of your dog. Perhaps dog assisted tuning is the way to ultimate perfection. After all compared to a dog's hearing we are practically deaf.

Kees


I have always heard fainter noises than my dog. But that is amplitude, not frequency... But what he understands best is musical emotion. He knows when I figure out how and what emotion to put into a piece. THEN he starts singing along. And when I tell him that is enough, he quiets down.

Well, they train dogs to use their sense of smell. Why not their hearing?


If dogs had their sense of smell really trained, they would take showers more often ; )

Pfeww, that Braid White man was really the bad guy, I picture him with a hidden tuning lever hidden in his boot, ready to give you a kick with it wink

Sorry for the OT, it is just to keep the manifold pressure positive...


Edited by Olek (11/27/13 05:46 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2189348 - 11/27/13 06:51 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Sorry, Bill, I thought you were asking a rhetorical question.

If you were asking earnest questions, I would answer but in another Topic. Presuming that I speculate does not belong in an earnest question.

To borrow a term from the V.P. your claim that the inside outside test works for UT is malarkey.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2189455 - 11/27/13 11:53 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
A Standard exists. Embrace it. Love it
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2189484 - 11/28/13 02:09 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Gary Fowler]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1938
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
A Standard exists.

Where, as an object or in writing?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2189486 - 11/28/13 02:15 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Gary Fowler]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1060
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
A Standard exists. Embrace it. Love it


Do you mean the ET... M39? laugh

Hi Ian, what are you doing so early.. :-)


Edited by alfredo capurso (11/28/13 02:20 AM)
_________________________
alfredo

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#2189492 - 11/28/13 02:40 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1938
Loc: Suffolk, England
Alfredo, I am writing to the French, but that is another story and not about ET!

Did you know the standard metre was once held in Paris as the distance between two marks on an alloy of platinum and iridium?

Paraphrasing (a note about the history of the metre), none of the standards changed the temperament, but merely allowed it to be duplicated more precisely.

When it comes to temperament, maybe there is an advantage in moving the marks a bit?


Edited by Withindale (11/28/13 07:31 AM)
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2189493 - 11/28/13 02:41 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
E.T. (TM) reissued year xxx. All rights reserved.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2189522 - 11/28/13 06:56 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4919
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Could we define the ET standard as each M6 audibly beating the same as the M3 two semitones higher? Wouldn't all the M3s and M6s then also be progressive?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2189574 - 11/28/13 10:10 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Gary Fowler]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 780
In the context of this discussion, a 'standard' means a 'model in comparative evaluations' (OED). Since each piano exhibits a unique inharmonicity, and even if you ignore that the inharmonicity varies slightly due to the tension change as the pitch of a note changes, the only 'model' that can be used 'in comparative evaluations' is that unique piano. The true aural tuner will find the 'standard' temperament for that unique piano.

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#2189607 - 11/28/13 11:30 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1938
Loc: Suffolk, England
Yes that's right, Prout. As I understand it, the standard for the PTG tuning exam is a particular piano tuned by experts.

But the International Standards Organisation would look for something of more general applicability. They say a standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose.

I have no doubt it would be possible to write such a document but whether everyone would agree with its contents is quite another matter.
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Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2189621 - 11/28/13 11:54 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1707
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Could we define the ET standard as each M6 audibly beating the same as the M3 two semitones higher? Wouldn't all the M3s and M6s then also be progressive?

Objections: It is a subjective definition ("audibly beating the same"). iM3-oM6 are not exactly equal beating, it's like defining pi as 22/7.

I like the original definition better: progressive M3/6. The fact that nobody can tune it does not discredit the definition IMO.

Kees

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#2189673 - 11/28/13 01:45 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Withindale]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 780
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Yes that's right, Prout. As I understand it, the standard for the PTG tuning exam is a particular piano tuned by experts.

But the International Standards Organisation would look for something of more general applicability. They say a standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose.

I have no doubt it would be possible to write such a document but whether everyone would agree with its contents is quite another matter.


Good point, and gets to the heart of the matter here. All standards require an accepted measurement that includes an accepted error tolerance. The metre is precisely defined using time as the measurement vehicle, and the accuracy of the measurement of time limits the accuracy of the length of the metre.
If everyone would accept a given tolerance for error in a tuning, then a standard would exist.

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#2189675 - 11/28/13 01:54 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Yes that's right, Prout. As I understand it, the standard for the PTG tuning exam is a particular piano tuned by experts.

But the International Standards Organisation would look for something of more general applicability. They say a standard is a document that provides requirements, specifications, guidelines or characteristics that can be used consistently to ensure that materials, products, processes and services are fit for their purpose.

I have no doubt it would be possible to write such a document but whether everyone would agree with its contents is quite another matter.


Hello Yann, about the meter definition, I have seen a documentary, on how difficult it was to define the exact length of one meter.

It took not months, but years since 1792 to 1796 for 2 geometer to measure the exact distance required to compute the original "metre etalon" one should measure from 2 French towns, Dunkerke to Rodez, the other from Barcelona, in Spain , to Rodez. Where they where supposed to meet.

Imagine the 2 men measuring parcel after parcel, taking notes, to get the distance of 9.5 degrees of an arc situated between those 2 towns. (that are at sea level)

Of course there was war between France an Spain at that time, so a man taking measurements was easily mistaken for a spy...

Quite a journey :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre


Then, finally , ET : http://www.deezer.com/track/12492219


Enjoy !



Edited by Olek (11/28/13 03:29 PM)
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#2189682 - 11/28/13 02:09 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21433
Loc: Oakland
I am not certain what standard one would use to define the pitch number of a note on a piano. I do not think that it can be defined to any arbitrary accuracy. One can probably tune equal temperament on a piano to within the accuracy that the pitch can be defined, and no other temperament, nor just intonation, can do any better than that on a piano.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2189686 - 11/28/13 02:27 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7457
Loc: France
I guess ET is yet defined, you find it on digital organs for instance.

Now the way it is implemented on pianos is a different story.

I understand that was included in the OT.

As there is a different ET for each pianon I cannot see what the standard would be. even a formula should address acoustical points, as the pitch of a single note is not clearly defined when in the ear of the listener.

A youngster will hear a different pitch than an adult , and possibly after some age we hear the pitch lower.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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