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#2189980 - 11/29/13 07:50 AM Tuning A4
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Do you tune it against a tone or just by directly measuring it?

And why do you prefer your method over the other?
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#2190080 - 11/29/13 12:25 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Do you tune it against a tone or just by directly measuring it?
Directly measuring it with an ETD is probably the most common method. Orthodox aural tuners insisting on the ancient tuning fork shouldn't just ping the fork and make A4 beatless as that is not accurate enough and use interferometry against the 5th partial of F2 or the 7th of B1.
Originally Posted By: Hakki
And why do you prefer your method over the other?
Aurally my method (to pass the PTG test in case I ever want to) is to use two tuning forks, one at 444Hz and one at 436Hz and tune A4 equal beating (at 4bps) to both forks. I prefer that because it's easier.

Kees

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#2190108 - 11/29/13 01:28 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: DoelKees]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 860
Loc: Seattle
I measure it with my laser guided digital metric tape measure with false beat offset calibration, custom stretch scale compensation, simultaneous back scale harmonic tuning, floating aliquot pitch meter, 657 temperment reference template including reverse well and Quantz/Handel Enharmonic Baroque VI temperament.

(Must be suffering from turkey overdosing)
_________________________
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Pipe Organ Builder
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Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2190127 - 11/29/13 02:50 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
What, you are still working with that antiquated stuff????
Maybe you are just too much of a Luddite to embrace the neutron beam, carbon nano-tube technology for setting A4...
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2190166 - 11/29/13 05:13 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 525
Loc: USA
I set A4 with two hair dryers and a weed wacker.
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Tuner-Technician



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#2190167 - 11/29/13 05:17 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21924
Loc: Oakland
I set A4 between G#4 and Bb4.
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#2190171 - 11/29/13 05:22 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.
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#2190181 - 11/29/13 05:38 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
pyropaul Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 194
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question. How does it matter to you, so long as A4 is accurately at the pitch you require (most likely 440Hz in North America).

For what it's worth, I tuned an old console that had been in storage for 8 years last weekend and set it using my brain's internal pitch reference. When I tested it against a real 440Hz reference, it was bang on the money. Luck? Probably, but very satisfying nevertheless.

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#2190185 - 11/29/13 05:45 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: pyropaul]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question.


Yet, it is still scaring enough that you can't provide a real answer.
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#2190189 - 11/29/13 05:52 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
pyropaul Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 194
Loc: Montreal
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question.


Yet, it is still scaring enough that you can't provide a real answer.


I told you how I did it - I just used my sense of where it should be and then found that I was correct. Otherwise I would have either used a fork (which I didn't have to hand) or Tunelab on my laptop which was not running at the time. Later, when I booted it up, it was right on the money.


Edited by pyropaul (11/29/13 05:52 PM)

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#2190196 - 11/29/13 05:57 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: pyropaul]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


It's a pointless question.


Yet, it is still scaring enough that you can't provide a real answer.


I told you how I did it - I just used my sense of where it should be and then found that I was correct. Otherwise I would have either used a fork (which I didn't have to hand) or Tunelab on my laptop which was not running at the time. Later, when I booted it up, it was right on the money.


Yeah, but the question is about your preferred method, and why you prefer that method.
Still you didn't answer that.
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#2190199 - 11/29/13 06:03 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Here we go again.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2190203 - 11/29/13 06:12 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Maine
Not me! I'm not going there. 'No sir! 'Give away my trade secrets? Not on your life! Get your own neutron beam thingie like Jurgen uses and struggle with that. I'll be light years ahead of you and laughing all the way.

'Sorry, Jurgen. You set me up. wink
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2190209 - 11/29/13 06:20 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Here we go again.


Not quite.

We are rather "stuck".
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#2190215 - 11/29/13 06:30 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hakki,

In case you haven't figured it out, very few people are taking you seriously because of your history on the forums.

I PMed you about piano tuning and why you were interested, and you made it clear that you were not interested in learning piano tuning (after a few more cryptic PM's) and that you are a staunch advocate of electronic tuning devices.

You even said ETD's "have outgrown aural tuners in every practical way.", which I'm sorry to tell you, says more about your current understanding of piano tuning than you are aware.

And BTW, I posted some pretty specific questions to you about the limitations of ETD's, which you neglected to answer.

Now all your cryptic questions about aural tuning techniques makes sense to me (and others now) as it seems you are setting traps to try and make aural tuners look stupid. Sorry, that's just the way it looks to me.

But, I'm always ready to be corrected.

Let's keep it friendly.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2190224 - 11/29/13 07:03 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Mark, thank you for being outspoken.

You know why I am here?

Yes, you are correct I don't have any plans to learn how to tune. That is both unpractical and risky.

OTOH, you are also correct that your assessment needs corrections.

Contrary to what you have perceived, I am both interested in aural and ETD tuning.

In fact, I sought for an aural tuner to retune my piano after it was experimentally tuned with the Ultratune software.

Unfortunately, the tuner whom I expected to tune my piano aurally insisted to tune with Tunelab to my dismay. Well, as I said earlier, he was a senior person and I did not want to argue with him.

I still want my piano to be tuned aurally. Unfortunately none of the available tuners here tune aurally.

There is one tuner, who has tuned my brother's piano aurally 10 years ago. But he has moved to another city since then. Even then, I am not sure whether he is still tuning aurally after 10 years.

As you might have guessed, since the purchase of my dream grand piano in 2005, I could not get a solid, stable, nice sounding tuning yet.

So, in a way I am here to commiserate with.


_________________________
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#2190230 - 11/29/13 07:23 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Hakki

Here's a diversion for you. The BBC broadcast it this week. Pianists show up around 18.30.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2190233 - 11/29/13 07:28 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
BTW, why I asked this question?

I still have my hopes that I can persuade one of the tuners here to tune aurally.

Also, with all my courage I will try to present them the translations of both the Steinway temperament and the contiguous thirds temperament (from Bill Bremmer's article).

Since the Steinway temperament seems more prone to cumulative errors, I will suggest the tuner to tune with the contiguous thirds method.

I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2190237 - 11/29/13 07:35 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Withindale]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Hakki

Here's a diversion for you. The BBC broadcast it this week. Pianists show up around 18.30.


We had played that with my brother with an amateur orchestra.
It was even broadcast on the national TV, with explanations narrated for the kids.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#2190273 - 11/29/13 09:00 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Allemande left with the old left hand, honey turn right with a right and left grand.................I have NO idea why I just thought of that now...must be the lack of turkey today......


Edited by Grandpianoman (11/29/13 09:05 PM)

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#2190284 - 11/29/13 09:34 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Gerry Johnston Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 04/12/13
Posts: 119
Loc: Haverhill, MA
Originally Posted By: Hakki
BTW, why I asked this question?

I still have my hopes that I can persuade one of the tuners here to tune aurally.

Also, with all my courage I will try to present them the translations of both the Steinway temperament and the contiguous thirds temperament (from Bill Bremmer's article).

Since the Steinway temperament seems more prone to cumulative errors, I will suggest the tuner to tune with the contiguous thirds method.

I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.


Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.
_________________________
Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com

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#2190299 - 11/29/13 10:12 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 594
Loc: CO, USA
You can also compare your A4 with the tone here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_dial_tone.ogg

Though it also as F4 mixed in (two tones for the price of one! lucky day)

Best wishes-


Edited by phacke (11/29/13 10:13 PM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin
F. Chopin, Prelude 28 (15)

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#2190301 - 11/29/13 10:23 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Gerry Johnston]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Gerry Johnston


Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.


That post nailed it. Don't EVER try to instruct a professional tuner how to tune your piano! 'Period. No matter how much you think you know, it won't be enough, and you'll loose your tuner. In those circumstances, I'd probably beat Gerry out the door.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2190307 - 11/29/13 10:34 PM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Gerry Johnston]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 525
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Gerry Johnston

Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.



That is one of those 'nail on the head' posts.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



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#2190359 - 11/30/13 01:35 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Gerry, of course I am not that arrogant to say the tuner which temperament to use. That is why I am here. I thought of referencing the pros here. So that it would be a suggestion from this group of tuners to them.
_________________________
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#2190364 - 11/30/13 01:55 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Gerry Johnston]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gerry Johnston
Originally Posted By: Hakki
BTW, why I asked this question?

I still have my hopes that I can persuade one of the tuners here to tune aurally.

Also, with all my courage I will try to present them the translations of both the Steinway temperament and the contiguous thirds temperament (from Bill Bremmer's article).

Since the Steinway temperament seems more prone to cumulative errors, I will suggest the tuner to tune with the contiguous thirds method.

I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.


Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.



Eh, well, yes, some sort of, but is the tuner qualified to know which temperament sequence to use to please some kind of customer? I mean not sure at all on that.

The relation "output vs tuning scheme" is not something many tuner have ideas about.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2190366 - 11/30/13 02:01 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Jbyron]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Jbyron
Originally Posted By: Gerry Johnston

Hakki -
Given your posts on this forum I'm not surprised that you are having difficulty finding a tuner. If a customer was so arrogant/foolish as give me instructions as to the best way to set a temperament I'd be out the door in a heartbeat. Experience teaches that some customers are just way too difficult to deal with. Either learn how to tune yourself or hire a professional and LEAVE HIM/HER alone - no instructions, no B.S., don't tell a pro. what YOU think is the best temperament sequence. You are not qualified to have an opinion on this. A paying customer is always qualified to judge the results - NEVER the process.



That is one of those 'nail on the head' posts.


I do not necessarily disagree with Gerry in principle. In virtually all cases, the client will not be qualified to instruct concerning the best temperament sequence et al., much less ask for it's implementation on his piano. But in business or practice the wiser course is to be patient and at least hear him out.

It is axiomatic. If we wish to succeed in business: a) The client is always right; b) in the event we believe the client is wrong, see a).

The consumer has the right or prerogative to request a preferred temperament or temperamental sequence, et al.

In response, the tech can say:

1. "You are not qualified to have an opinion on this."

This is a negative put down. An offended client can do far more harm to our business than we can do to them. They have relatives, friends, acquaintances - many with itching ears - and far more than we might imagine. In the final analysis, we may win the battle, but lose the war.

2. "I am sorry. I cannot do what you ask, but I will try and help you to find someone who can."

If declining the tuning is for personal ethical reasons, it is best not say so, as it implies the client is being seen as unethical in his request. Bad PR.

3. "Ok, let's give it a try and see how you like it."
Such, in effect, tells the client that we are more interested in his needs. It's a win-win. Along with 2., it's great PR that can pay dividends via recommendations in the years to come.

All of this is in my view, of course. It's a free country. All are at liberty to do whatsoever they wish.



Edited by bkw58 (11/30/13 02:02 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
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#2190382 - 11/30/13 03:10 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I have no problem the customer watching me, also, but it is more correct to to be asked first.

Could be disturbing, I understand that. Discussing temperament sequences with a customer, is probably useless. Unless he is harpsichord player, he do not have the basics.

Still I think different sequences gives different outputs so it could be an eventual concern or inquiry. I just doubt the customer can have knowledge of some practical value on the subject.

I had opinions from customers on "standard tuning" vs tuning schemes in "pure 5ths" (as that one's are used by some tuners) .


Some tuners need more quietness to tune, that is understandeable, due to the type of work where high concentration is mandatory.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2190385 - 11/30/13 03:35 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2778
Bob, Isaac, thank you. Wish you were tuners in my town.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2190394 - 11/30/13 04:13 AM Re: Tuning A4 [Re: Hakki]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Hakki, I may have missed it, but what is your profession/vocation?

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Do you tune it against a tone or just by directly measuring it?

And why do you prefer your method over the other?


There are many ways to skin a cat.

You are obviously well aware of the various methods that tuners use to set A4, so why ask such a questions, as, "why do you prefer your method over the other?"

Originally Posted By: Hakki
Sorry, I hadn't thought it would be such a scaring question.


The problem is that you already know the answer/s and you have proven that you have the uncanny ability to pick everything apart ad infinitum.

Originally Posted By: Hakki


I understand that, the PTG exam requires the tuning of A4 within 3 cents against a tone.
But these tuners in my town are accustomed to using their ETDs for setting the A4.
So, I thought it would be appropriate to skip the aural tuning of A4 for an aural tuning using the contiguous thirds method.

But I am not sure.
Maybe there is a reason as to why the PTG is still requiring it.
Hence my question about the tuning of A4.

So, please everybody, don't seek for any concealed thoughts behind my questions.


If the ETD has been calibrated to a good/reliable pitch source, such as NIST, then there should be no problem using an ETD to tune A4, and it maybe faster and easier.

If your tuner had to set A4 using whatever method, and let's say that he landed up being out by 3 cents, what would the problem be for you?




Edited by Mark Davis (11/30/13 04:22 AM)
Edit Reason: a
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Piano Tuner & Technician

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Kawai vs. Yamaha: what to choose
by SeeSharp
12/21/14 02:19 PM
Disklavier Pro Alternatives? C5X Value for money?
by bryan77
12/21/14 01:15 PM
piano sound is the result of more than just the hammer speed
by Keith D Kerman
12/21/14 01:05 PM
piano sound is the result of more than just the hammer speed
by Keith D Kerman
12/21/14 01:05 PM
country style piano
by seniormoment
12/21/14 12:42 PM
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