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#2190535 - 11/30/13 12:15 PM What should i learn next?
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
I am about to complete learning how to play Fur Elise.

Since i am not familiar with the grading systems i do not know which pieces are there for me to pick similiar to Fur Elise. By similarity i mean how hard the piece is.
I have mendelssohn's boat song op 30 in my head already BUT i do not like to focus only on one piece at a time so im thinking learning 3 at once. Could you perhaps give some advice on about it?

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#2190546 - 11/30/13 12:33 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Morodiene Online   content
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Did you play all of Fur Elise, or only the A section? Were you able to play accurately up to tempo? Also, what have you played previously, or are these two pieces the only 2 you've done? With just two pieces and no idea how they sound and what you did, it's hard to suggest what you should do next.
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#2190554 - 11/30/13 01:02 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Posts: 87
First of all i havent started learning Boat Song from Mendel. I will start learning them after Fur Elise. I am able to play the second section of Fur Elise at only a level "just learned". I wont leave this pieve of course after i start learning others. But i should keep my self occupied with other things.

I have to more pieces which i can play they are H in New England and Infra 3 by Max Richter. I have problem with my technique on Infra 3 so on 240 bpm my arm starts to ache but i can play the piece nonetheless.

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#2190558 - 11/30/13 01:14 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Morodiene Online   content
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I don't know the other pieces you mentioned, so I looked them up on youtube. Infra 3 gets nowhere near as fast as 240 bpm. Are you counting 16th notes instead of beats? If your hand aches, then you're playing way too fast for your capabilities. It should never hurt, ache, or even get fatigued while playing. Period. When it does it means:
1) This is too hard for you
2) You need to work out your technical issue through good practicing techniques
3) Both of the above.

I have a feeling you will be very challenged by Mendelssohn at this stage. The Richter pieces are quite simple/repetitive, and Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words require a lot of interplay in the hands, finger independence, and singing melody line that I'm not sure you'd be "ready" for given what you've worked on so far.

I highly recommend that you find a good teacher that can get you where you want to be in the most efficient way possible so that you can play whatever you desire. Learning to walk by running first isn't how people usually succeed at piano.

If you can't get a teacher, then consider going through a method book designed for adults to learn. This will give you the basics, but it won't prevent bad habits that are inevitable from self-teaching. At least you will be going in a pedagogically sound fashion and developing skills necessary to play these pieces.
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#2190629 - 11/30/13 05:15 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Polyphonist Offline
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I am about to complete learning how to play Fur Elise.

Since i am not familiar with the grading systems i do not know which pieces are there for me to pick similiar to Fur Elise. By similarity i mean how hard the piece is.
I have mendelssohn's boat song op 30 in my head already BUT i do not like to focus only on one piece at a time so im thinking learning 3 at once. Could you perhaps give some advice on about it?

Have you consulted your teacher about this?
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#2190637 - 11/30/13 05:35 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
I do not have a teacher. After a day or two i will be able to atleast record first and second section of Für Elise so that might give you a general idea.

Considering what Morodiene says i might consult to a book. Sure but which one? Bad habits are bad indeed. And on the case of Infra 3 which gives me aching, i made a thread about but was unable to get a proper way to fix my issue so i'm not trying hard on that. I understand how crucial technique is but i just don't have the TIME

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#2190640 - 11/30/13 05:39 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
And my little research says that Für Elise And Op. 30 No. 6 by Mendel are the same grades. That was the reason i chose it actually. If only i had a list where i can pick Für Elise level pieces frown

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#2190655 - 11/30/13 06:22 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I understand how crucial technique is but i just don't have the TIME
If you have time to learn pieces then you have time to learn to play them well. Technique is how you do something, so you should be learning technique right along side learning the music, making it easy to play. So however long you have to practice that day, technical work should be a part of it.

Quote:
And my little research says that Für Elise And Op. 30 No. 6 by Mendel are the same grades. That was the reason i chose it actually. If only i had a list where i can pick Für Elise level pieces frown
My point is that I'm not sure you're at that level yet. Of course, you can play pieces you love. But I suspect that you are not being patient enough with yourself and setting yourself up for failure and frustration.
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#2190676 - 11/30/13 06:49 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I do not have a teacher.

Well, that's the first issue.
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#2190693 - 11/30/13 07:29 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
dmd Offline
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Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1846
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I understand how crucial technique is but i just don't have the TIME


One thing you will find out about learning to play piano is that it takes TIME. There is no way around that.

If you try to go too fast, you end up getting nowhere.

Oh, you might learn to play something just by playing it over and over and over and over and over and over ...

But, that begins to get very tedious after a while and usually you end up just quitting.

You have to ... as they say ... pay your dues !!

There is a certain set of skills you need to master before you can really make much progress.

The best way to acquire those skills is with a teacher. If that is not possible, then you have to try it on your own. That usually means getting a piano method book and going through it page by page, very carefully.

The sooner you accept the fact that hurrying will not work, the sooner you can get started actually learning to play.

Good Luck
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#2190749 - 11/30/13 10:23 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
earlofmar Offline
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Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I am about to complete learning how to play Fur Elise.



I read one of the more advanced players here describe how Fur Elise for them is never learned and is still striving to perfect it.

That being said and the lack of detail as to other works you have learned, I can only infer Fur Elise is the hardest piece you have learned to date. Whether Fur Elise is level 4 or 5 (or higher) is irrelevant. Does this mean you are comfortable in all the other lower grades and worked through them achieving a high level of proficiency? If you have take a look here

If you have not then do not fool yourself playing hard pieces above your current grade will advance your piano playing faster. There are no short cuts!
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#2190750 - 11/30/13 10:30 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
earlofmar Offline
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Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I have problem with my technique on Infra 3 so on 240 bpm my arm starts to ache but i can play the piece nonetheless.


It vexes me to hear people write this like it is not important. If you are feeling pain or ache then something is wrong. If you do nothing you can end up injured, at best you may have to stop piano and recover, or at worst stop piano all together.
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#2190751 - 11/30/13 10:32 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: earlofmar]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7598
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: earlofmar
Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I have problem with my technique on Infra 3 so on 240 bpm my arm starts to ache but i can play the piece nonetheless.


It vexes me to hear people write this like it is not important. If you are feeling pain or ache then something is wrong. If you do nothing you can end up injured, at best you may have to stop piano and recover, or at worst stop piano all together.


No, that's not even the worst that can happen.
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#2190764 - 11/30/13 10:57 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: Polyphonist]
earlofmar Offline
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Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1582
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: earlofmar
Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I have problem with my technique on Infra 3 so on 240 bpm my arm starts to ache but i can play the piece nonetheless.


It vexes me to hear people write this like it is not important. If you are feeling pain or ache then something is wrong. If you do nothing you can end up injured, at best you may have to stop piano and recover, or at worst stop piano all together.


No, that's not even the worst that can happen.


You are of course correct, injuries can be complicated and may need a high level of medical intervention. A sobering thought: 1 in every 400 patients receiving a knee replacement die within 30 day of the operation.
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#2190838 - 12/01/13 07:10 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
First of all i really am not trying to go on a fast pace. The reason i learned Fur Elise is ony because it was the only piece I had in mind when i started my learning. So it's just come as a natural.

Secondly, when i meant completing how to play Fur Elise i only meant i can see the end from the very start while being able to press the notes. Of course i wasn't going to fool myself i give the piece the value it deserves. Since my sickness getting the worst of me my record of it will be delayed three to four days. I'm hoping that would give you some general idea.

About, Infra 3 and me getting pain in my arm... Since thread of mine here didn't find me a way to overcome it, i stopped practicing it basically. It's just that i love the piece so much i can't help it. I might have a compulsive disorder at that -loving listening and discovering some repetite works. Anyway...

Last of all there is this huge thread in here Piano World about Alfred's book. Im guessing it is what you call a method book? Either way what would you suggest for a method book? Another friend of mine mentioned a hannon or honnon. I cant exactly remember now. Are those important too?

And lastly, thank you so very much to all of you.

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#2190849 - 12/01/13 07:58 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: kaanguner


Last of all there is this huge thread in here Piano World about Alfred's book. Im guessing it is what you call a method book? Either way what would you suggest for a method book? Another friend of mine mentioned a hannon or honnon. I cant exactly remember now. Are those important too?

And lastly, thank you so very much to all of you.

Hanon is not a method book, and I would not recommend it for you. Many people on this forum like the Alfred All-In-One book (which is a method book). It's not my favorite for adults because it tends to get students accustomed to right hand melody, left hand accompaniment in chords, start chords way too soon, and lots and lot of hand positions. However, no method book is perfect, either, and there are lots of people here who can help you through it, so it's not a terrible choice all things considered.

I personally prefer Hal Leonard's Adult Method, or my favorite, Francis Clark's Keyboard for the Adult Beginner. I'm not even sure it's in print anymore, but a wonderful book for a student who loves classical music. It assumes you know some basics of note reading, however.
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#2190857 - 12/01/13 08:41 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Bamburg Offline
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Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 82
You should get a teacher.


If you think you should be playing pieces as complicated as Fur Elise and you go out and buy Alfred's 1 you probably won't use it. My piano beginning was similar in that I started with something that just wasn't beginner material and when I got a good teacher she put me back in Alfred's 1. I hated every song in it, but with her guidance I was able to get through it all of it in just under 3 months. We skipped a few songs as she knew other, more enjoyable pieces, which taught the skills presented in a better way. She also gave me quite a few pointers that aren't anywhere in the book on how to make the pieces actually sound like music.

Anyway, I can't imagine learning without my teacher at this stage. There's just so much you can't get out of a book.

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#2190861 - 12/01/13 08:46 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: Bamburg]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Bamburg
You should get a teacher.


If you think you should be playing pieces as complicated as Fur Elise and you go out and buy Alfred's 1 you probably won't use it. My piano beginning was similar in that I started with something that just wasn't beginner material and when I got a good teacher she put me back in Alfred's 1. I hated every song in it, but with her guidance I was able to get through it all of it in just under 3 months. We skipped a few songs as she knew other, more enjoyable pieces, which taught the skills presented in a better way. She also gave me quite a few pointers that aren't anywhere in the book on how to make the pieces actually sound like music.

Anyway, I can't imagine learning without my teacher at this stage. There's just so much you can't get out of a book.
I wonder how much of "hating every song in it" is because of the simplicity that hurts one's pride, and how much is because the music is sub-par. There is some great beginner music, but every method book as quite a few "clunkers" out there. Not everything can be fun and enjoyable in the same manner, though. As someone else pointed out, they are means to an end, and they are there for a reason. There is often a skill you learn from doing a piece, and to just do ones you like from the onset will rob you of the necessary skills you need later.
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#2190868 - 12/01/13 09:04 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Bamburg Offline
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I don't think it was the simplicity, just my own personal musical tastes. I'm sure you can't make a method book that everyone is going to like. That's part of why I suggest a teacher, mine will play through a few alternatives and I'll find one I like.

Also, hating every song in it might be a bit of an overstatement, but if I never have to play blow the man down again it will still be too soon!

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#2190871 - 12/01/13 09:13 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: Bamburg]
Morodiene Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Bamburg
I don't think it was the simplicity, just my own personal musical tastes. I'm sure you can't make a method book that everyone is going to like. That's part of why I suggest a teacher, mine will play through a few alternatives and I'll find one I like.

Also, hating every song in it might be a bit of an overstatement, but if I never have to play blow the man down again it will still be too soon!
LOL! I like to give my students music that they enjoy from supplementary materials so that they can have something to reinforce what they've already learn, and sometimes challenge themselves in other ways for a piece they really love. It makes the drudgery of some of the lesser-liked method book pieces a little more tolerable.
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#2191327 - 12/02/13 10:07 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
IanW Offline
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Posts: 52
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You could have a look at the Piano Syllabus website ( here) and search for stuff around grade 5 (which is where Fur Elise is at). If you like Mendelssohn there's 3 of his pieces listed at that grade.
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#2191401 - 12/02/13 12:05 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
I have just finished second section. Since i think it is tolerable to listen to i decided to share. And should i perhaps record the other two pieces too? Seems like it won't be a reference to you since you say they are so easy.

http://youtu.be/8Z5VhJE6VoI


Edited by kaanguner (12/02/13 12:08 PM)

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#2191404 - 12/02/13 12:11 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: IanW]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
Originally Posted By: IanW
You could have a look at the Piano Syllabus website ( here) and search for stuff around grade 5 (which is where Fur Elise is at). If you like Mendelssohn there's 3 of his pieces listed at that grade.


Thing is the other pieces i have learned so far are too easy and i wasn't at the time i created the thread finished playing Für Elise we had no way of knowing if i can play at those grades. I'm ok from starting from 3, i think.

And i have large room to grow i think. Since i have just finished learning it. I can experiment on it to make it musical. Should i perhaps work 1 week more and then record since it can't be a reference whether i can play at this grade or not?

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#2191426 - 12/02/13 12:37 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Morodiene Online   content
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Although I can't see your hands, I'm inferring from your posts and the recording that you have some tension issues that are making your notes uneven. I think Fur Elise is perhaps too difficult a piece for you at this moment, and it may be a good idea to let it sit while you work on some easier pieces within your grasp.

Have you done any of the Anna Magdalena Bach notebook pieces? There are many wonderful pieces in there to enjoy that would help you technically as you focus on playing without added tension. The problem is usually going too fast too soon. Even the greatest pianists do very slow practicing.

Beethoven and his teacher, Haydn, both wrote some entertaining pieces that are about the same level as AMB notebook. I recommend that you go through one of the method books previously mentioned, and then supplementing with working on some of these easier pieces. That way while you are learning what you need, you can still be playing enjoyable stuff.
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#2191482 - 12/02/13 02:53 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Posts: 87
Actually i dont feel any tension from Fur Elise. Right now im kinda sloppy with it but i think that is tolerable since i have just learned it. But putting that aside im planning to through Alfred's or another method book while learning pieces from grade 3.

And Morodiene i dont know the pieces you reccomend. Perhaps i should do them first? I was planning little prelude from bach and some other from schuherz or schuberz another little nice fast piece.

Really im in no hurry just was trying to find my level of playing so according to that i would find the next pieces that i was going to learn. Minus the method book i really dont want to learn a grade 2 piece. Grade 3, im fine with. And ill start Alfred, i yu guys dont have another book for me...

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#2191731 - 12/03/13 03:50 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
Bobpickle Offline

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Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1383
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Originally Posted By: kaanguner
I understand how crucial technique is but i just don't have the TIME


It takes approximately 10,000 hours with efficient practice habits and effective instruction to acquire a masterful piano technique. The average beginner who has never received instruction or studied proper technique practices with a rate of efficiency of approximately 5-10% (likely far less) that of a well-taught pianist. This means that if said beginner will ever acquire a masterful technique, it will take some 10-20 times longer (between 100,000 to 200,000 hours) than someone with proper (efficient) habits. In other words, for a self-taught beginner, at least 90,000 hours will be wasted when compared with someone studying under the instruction of a competent teacher.

Assuming your time was worth the United States' federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour, that 90,000 hours is worth a gross $652,500. Assuming the average piano teacher's fee was $50/hour, you could purchase 10,000 hours of personalized instruction during which you could practice with a near-100% efficiency for $500,000. This means that if your time is worth the federal minimum wage of the United States (are you capable of standing behind a grill and flipping burgers), then by purchasing - and only practicing during - private lessons, you actually gain $152,500.

Obviously this is a stupid estimation of expense as most practicing is done at home alone and the most most students receive instruction is twice-weekly for one hour apiece, meaning your expenses will be far less and your income minus instruction fees far greater.


But then again, this only applies if your goal is to be able to take any music and be able to play it masterfully (i.e. acquire a virtuoso piano technique). If mediocre playing is the goal, then ignore the free money and keep playing however you want grin.

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#2194465 - 12/08/13 11:23 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: Morodiene]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Although I can't see your hands, I'm inferring from your posts and the recording that you have some tension issues that are making your notes uneven. I think Fur Elise is perhaps too difficult a piece for you at this moment, and it may be a good idea to let it sit while you work on some easier pieces within your grasp.

Have you done any of the Anna Magdalena Bach notebook pieces? There are many wonderful pieces in there to enjoy that would help you technically as you focus on playing without added tension. The problem is usually going too fast too soon. Even the greatest pianists do very slow practicing.

Beethoven and his teacher, Haydn, both wrote some entertaining pieces that are about the same level as AMB notebook. I recommend that you go through one of the method books previously mentioned, and then supplementing with working on some of these easier pieces. That way while you are learning what you need, you can still be playing enjoyable stuff.


http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=HK6h...ark&f=false

Is this the book you refer to?
I decided to start learning through a method book. This if not Alfred's.
I care for two thing. Which one has more classical repertoire and at the end of the whick book i will be more advanced?

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#2199210 - 12/17/13 03:40 PM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
Whatever i started learning Alfred. I have one more question now. When i do all three or them which grade i will be in?

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#2199512 - 12/18/13 03:30 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
sinophilia Offline

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Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 984
Loc: Italy
There are a few difficult ("ambitious") pieces at the end of Alfred 3, but according to my experience, at the end of the series you will barely be able to start grade 2 pieces. There is a bit of everything in these books, lots of great theory, chords, 16ths and 32nds, ornaments, a little bit of two-part writing, etc., and from the second half of book 2 things get challenging, but if you are into classical repertoire I suggest you supplement Alfred from the very beginning with First Lessons in Bach, Czerny and Burgmuller studies and similar materials.
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#2199534 - 12/18/13 05:18 AM Re: What should i learn next? [Re: kaanguner]
kaanguner Offline
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Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 87
To be frank i'm kind of underwhelmed by what you said, if it is the fact obviously, since i believe i can play Fur Elise which suppose to be higher tier of level 4. I admit i lack theory but to study all those pages just to learn theory and not to gain anything technically is disappointing. If someone else bothers to give an example of his i would very much like it. Although im not sure about 4 i certainly am confortable playing pieces at 3.

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