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Sorry, your point was so subtle that I had to reread your post several times before I finally "saw" it.

I once thought it was that simple, but it's not. When I took my first ever lessons (different instrument) I kept in mind what you just said, Morodiene, because I am a teacher myself. I assumed that what I was told had a purpose, so I followed instructions to the letter. There were things that did not work no matter how long I tried them, and I felt effects that I did not tell my teacher about. Several years in, I talked to that teacher for the first time, and gave feedback about such things. It turned out that it was needed and wanted. This was a good teacher btw. As an adult who had done music as an amateur, I was more complex, with more unknowns about me.

Teacher hat: The things we is for a purpose, and we assume that by doing them, we reach that purpose. So for example, you sing in order for the student to feel the musical line, or even to pre-hear what the notes sound like - the result you want is that the student will be able to play musically. Or the result you want is that the student will start feeling those black dots as music, and play them as music. But for anything that you do, can you tell (esp. for each student) if it is having that outcome? Or will you assume that it has that outcome, so you always do it? I know you will go by observation - is feedback by the student also welcome? If the student says "I can't concentrate when you sing." do you want to know that and deal with it?

Adult students are uncharged territory. I will give one example:

A young child is learning to use his body, and everything is new to him. He has to learn to press the keys, to play one note after the other, it's all fresh sound and sensation. All this internalizes. When he gets to stuff that is music, that training of body and senses are in him, and he uses them. If he is asked to aim for the musical at the appropriate time, when he is ready for it, then he will draw on that training.

The adult seems to know a lot and is able to understand a lot of concepts: those who have done music in some manner are in the biggest danger of that. But of all age groups they are the most likely to be disconnected physically and in the senses. What are the NEEDS of this adult? What if, for example, this adult needs to learn to coordinate his body to the notes? What if the act of pressing and releasing one note after the other takes every ounce of concentration? Is the student that you teach (anyone, any student) where you think they are?

What I'm wondering, Peter, is whether some dialogue and exploration are in order - or maybe some kind of observation. She mentioned concentration. What is she doing as she is playing? Is she "concentrating fiercely" (tensely)? Can she press / find the notes with ease (both physical and reading ability)? Does she know how to prepare a piece at home - to break it down to work on it in stages? Is she missing abilities which actually do make your singing overwhelming? Is it the way she focuses her attention while playing for you that is causing a problem? And of course she also needs to know that what you do as a teacher is for a purpose.

Student hat: I had to learn not to be completely silent. And what degree of independence do you want from your student? Even here the lines are blurred, because for young children it evolves naturally.

I am an adult student who returned to piano almost 3 years ago. My teacher sings quite frequently during lessons to help find a note and more often for help with phrasing. He also plays along at times too. I have no problem with him singing. The only problem is when he wants me to sing. I can't sing and I refuse to sing in front of anyone. He keeps trying and I will try singing at home to work on phrasing. As someone else said, he says singing makes you naturally take breaths so it can help make your playing more musical. I don't know if this is something new or if I just never had teachers who asked their students to sing. Even when I was in college, my piano teachers did not ever ask me to sing. My granddaughter who is 8 just started taking lessons from him and he has her sing almost everything she plays. However she can sing and loves to sing. I have been a teacher in the past but also would not think of telling my teacher what to do. I may ask questions but I am always respectful.

Morodiene, we may be more on the same page than it appears. You also teach singing, and I know that you are a very serious and careful teacher, and have advanced training in this area as a singer. I know that for singing, you want the mechanics to go right first - how to breathe, how to produce a note without straining. And if a student aims too early to be musical, they won't develop the physical reflexes which have to be there to support it. Am I correct in that?

I see the same thing for musical instruments. I also see that for those who have played piano (taught) since childhood, it seems so natural - the musical side is so fused into the physical. If you feel crescendo, your body does the right motions to produce crescendo. Piano, above all, is so "easy" for producing a sound. But might the same thing apply as in singing?

There is an important factor here. You had piano lessons before, so the physical (technical) training is there. When your present teacher sings to you, those reflexes are formed. How is it for a beginner who has never played piano before?

I know I sing more with some students than with others, but I'll start paying more attention to when and why. Clearly my student wasn't setting out to rebuke me: she was just trying to concentrate on playing her piece for me, and my singing was in the way and throwing her off.

This didn't seem the time for a talk on the benefits of singing. Besides, I was too startled.

It's a balance, because she also has to learn how to work with a teacher, and what you do. If this is her first time having lessons, it's all new to her. Including maybe what she thinks you expect of her.

This has made me think. One vivid memory that's come back is that the teacher of my first instrument always said "psss" if counting came up and there was a rest: 1, 2, 3 and psss, 1...." I'd concentrate on my playing and was barely aware of it. But years later I taught theory to someone, and being self-taught she had "discounted" rests in a sense. A rest is when you don't play so it's "nothing". But is is in fact a something - it is a space in time when you don't play. And what did I do? I found myself making an audio where I was saying "1, 2, 3, psss". It is a subliminal thing that I had internalized. This "psss" was "Here is something - silence is something that you insert." Our choirmaster would say "off" - "1, 2, 3, off, 1" Same thing. He didn't discuss it with us - he just did it.

Hi Peter,

If your student was really concentrating hard to play the correct notes and use her fingers properly, then your singing really could have been distracting since it is interfering with the aural feedback she is used to.

I think you need to ask yourself why you felt the need to sing. Since this is an external factor that you are imposing in your student, she might get the idea better if you explain why you were singing. Then get her to sing the part without playing, for example to shape the phrase. Perhaps she can try to emulate this on the piano, but making an effort to draw a singing line from the piano, or whatever your purpose of singing was to begin with. This makes singing internal to her and less distracting for her. Who knows, she might even get the idea faster this way.

Anne

I get distracted by all kinds of stuff all the time; siren on the street, noise from the next room, a roll of thunder. What is a distraction really--a shift of attention or a change in focus. When my teacher does something that "is distracting," I believe that what he is doing is directing me to some aspect of my playing that could benefit from a bit more of my attention.

To me it's a good thing.

Morodiene, thank you for your thought provoking comments. Well no, it's unlikely the beginner student will know what's for the best more so than the teacher, but they will know what they like and don't like. I can't speak for Peter K Mose's student, but I do know I'd prefer to develop more slowly (or whatever would be the result of not hearing the teacher singing) with a teacher who listened to what I thought. I would, however, be open to discussion if the teacher felt it was important to have the singing, but ultimately as it would be my lesson and my learning I would have to be satisfied with it. I hope that doesn't make me an awful customer, I like to think of myself as a really nice piano student, but I would respectfully ask a teacher to stop doing something I didn't like.

Re. My teacher humming: It happens so very rarely (I'm quite conscientious about learning things), so I can't imagine it's doing all that much for my aural development. There seems little point in telling her not to hum when it's so infrequent and would just seem unnecessarily peevish. As I said, if it was more often I would say so. If she then said there was some good reason for it then I'd be perfectly happy to concede. 

A rest is a very important nothing, and I insist on silence for the full time period. That isn't easy with my groups; singers tend to be lazy with cutoffs, and my bell ringers have to take a positive action (damping) to terminate the note. My last visual image seemed to work. I called their attention to the fact that a quarter rest symbol looks very much like a dead seagull, and required them to observe a moment of silence in honor of the deceased.

(for the seagull. )

Very interesting discussion so far!

I'm recommending letting this beginner student some sense of being able to influence her learning environment. As others point out, adults arrive at the bench with established ideas of control. Sometimes there are battle scars. So not listening to students when something bothers them initially may inadvertently damage the trust that has to be built in order to create a really excellent learning forum.

Besides, she also sings in a choir, as I do. To be a good choir singer requires listening hard to the voices around you. When all you want to do in the beginning is get your fingers to turn the little black dots into sounds, being distracted by someone singing in the background would not be helpful initially. Later of course, yes, as I am sure she will make the connection herself that singing is the root of musicality.

My two bits.

Forstergirl