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#2193036 - 12/05/13 04:17 PM Wrists, Hold em up
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 405
PROTIP:

I'm slowly learning my SOUND is much better and I feel more confident when I almost let my hands HANG. its interesting.
_________________________
"Doesn't practicing on the piano suck?!?!"
"The joy is in the practicing. It's like relationships. Yeah, orgasms are awesome, but you can't make love to someone who you have no relationship with!"

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#2193077 - 12/05/13 05:29 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Before you say "Pro Tip", you should specify whether you are, in fact, a pro.


Pro Tip: the playing mechanism works best when it's aligned properly. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2193084 - 12/05/13 05:42 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 405
hahaha im most definitely NOT a pro

moreso internet slang for "Helpful hint" laugh
_________________________
"Doesn't practicing on the piano suck?!?!"
"The joy is in the practicing. It's like relationships. Yeah, orgasms are awesome, but you can't make love to someone who you have no relationship with!"

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#2193094 - 12/05/13 06:00 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
No worries, I kinda figured that. grin

If you're interested, there are a whole slew of helpful threads on technique, relaxation, etc. You can run a search and find a plethora.. might help you get to that next step even faster. smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2193131 - 12/05/13 07:05 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
Bamburg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 67
If I had a dollar for every time my teacher got on to me about my wrists being too low I think she'd be paying me for lessons.

It definitely helps with making my sound more fluid and even though, so I suppose she's on to something!

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#2193139 - 12/05/13 07:19 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11578
Loc: Canada
.


Edited by keystring (12/05/13 08:21 PM)

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#2193147 - 12/05/13 07:32 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Derulux]
malkin Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
Originally Posted By: Derulux
...
If you're interested, there are a whole slew of helpful threads on technique, relaxation, etc. You can run a search and find a plethora.. might help you get to that next step even faster. smile


It's hard for me incorporate any of this stuff into my actual playing. I can read about it, believe in it, understand that it is a good idea, wish for it, and visualize it, but I don't really see any manifestation of it when I play.
_________________________
A good student is one who makes the teacher feel like a good teacher.

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#2193155 - 12/05/13 07:50 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 405
You need to be diligent and correct yourself OFTEN. Eventually, its habit and natural.

Also, slow down. You need to practice and understand what its like to play comfortably. If you can't play it slow, you can't play it fast. I can't stress this enough.


Edited by Sweet06 (12/05/13 07:56 PM)
_________________________
"Doesn't practicing on the piano suck?!?!"
"The joy is in the practicing. It's like relationships. Yeah, orgasms are awesome, but you can't make love to someone who you have no relationship with!"

Top
#2193170 - 12/05/13 08:56 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: malkin]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: malkin
Originally Posted By: Derulux
...
If you're interested, there are a whole slew of helpful threads on technique, relaxation, etc. You can run a search and find a plethora.. might help you get to that next step even faster. smile


It's hard for me incorporate any of this stuff into my actual playing. I can read about it, believe in it, understand that it is a good idea, wish for it, and visualize it, but I don't really see any manifestation of it when I play.

It's tough to hit the pavement with the wheels spinning. Do you practice it diligently, or do it once/twice and then see if it fits in your playing? (I fell into the latter category for years. grin )
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2193665 - 12/06/13 08:23 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 405
remember, ANYTHINGS do-able. You just have to put in the work to obtain what you want.
_________________________
"Doesn't practicing on the piano suck?!?!"
"The joy is in the practicing. It's like relationships. Yeah, orgasms are awesome, but you can't make love to someone who you have no relationship with!"

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#2193708 - 12/06/13 10:57 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 945
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
I'm always amazed at how I have to learn this over and over and over again. The wrists will sink slightly when I'm not aware. It's very hard to monitor everything about your own playing--which makes it wonderful to have an observant teacher. What a difference when you do it right, though!

I have to believe that each time I relearn this, the feeling of the right height will get a little more ingrained.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2193730 - 12/07/13 12:06 AM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Bamburg]
musdan Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 1163
My teacher is always asking me to lower my wrists - and they somehow do get a little to high. I wonder if there's middle road, neither to high or to low. smile

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#2193848 - 12/07/13 08:40 AM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: musdan]
SwissMS Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/11
Posts: 694
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: musdan
My teacher is always asking me to lower my wrists - and they somehow do get a little to high. I wonder if there's middle road, neither to high or to low. smile


I have had this problem too. My teacher has worked with me to have a very flexible wrist, dropping and rising with the choreography of the movement of the music. It is never fixed, high or low. I don't think that it is wrong for the wrist to ocasionally be below the level of the keys, and occasionally above the level. It should never be fixed, or held. It depends what you are doing. For me the average high is such that the heel of my hand just brushes the keys.
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#2193858 - 12/07/13 09:12 AM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: SwissMS]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11578
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
My teacher has worked with me to have a very flexible wrist, dropping and rising with the choreography of the movement of the music. It is never fixed, high or low.

When I read the title "hold em up", followed by the discovery that a low wrist (i.e. not holding them up) cause improvement, this was my thought. No, it is not that a low wrist makes improvement. It is that "holding up" the wrist, or any fixed position requiring effort, takes away from your playing. So if you have released some of the tension that comes from holding up your wrist, and gotten into more movement and relaxing into the keys, this would improve your playing.

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#2193867 - 12/07/13 09:30 AM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: SwissMS]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: SwissMS
My teacher has worked with me to have a very flexible wrist, dropping and rising with the choreography of the movement of the music. It is never fixed, high or low. I don't think that it is wrong for the wrist to ocasionally be below the level of the keys, and occasionally above the level. It should never be fixed, or held. It depends what you are doing. For me the average high is such that the heel of my hand just brushes the keys.
100% agree.

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#2193873 - 12/07/13 09:38 AM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 945
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Well, it's sort of like Goldilocks' porridge, has to be just right--neither too high nor too low, moving just as needed.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2193895 - 12/07/13 10:38 AM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
I think Swiss's statement stands fine as it is. The reasons for moving are musical - 'as needed' comes across as rather parsimonious. In many parts of the world they only have one word for both music and dance.

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#2193922 - 12/07/13 11:45 AM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: musdan]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: musdan
My teacher is always asking me to lower my wrists - and they somehow do get a little to high. I wonder if there's middle road, neither to high or to low. smile


There is. The most important aspect of the wrist is that it is aligned with the hand/arm. Flexible/supple, yes; but aligned.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2193986 - 12/07/13 01:50 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Derulux]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11578
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: musdan
My teacher is always asking me to lower my wrists - and they somehow do get a little to high. I wonder if there's middle road, neither to high or to low. smile


There is. The most important aspect of the wrist is that it is aligned with the hand/arm. Flexible/supple, yes; but aligned.

But if you try too hard to be aligned, then you end up being stiff. Also, what are the factors of that alignment. For example, if you sit too close then there isn't enough room, and something will bend. If you try to force the alignment, you get tension, so you have to get at the cause. The same for a high or low wrist (in general) - what is the height of your bench? Etc.

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#2194003 - 12/07/13 02:18 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 945
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Alignment doesn't take effort, it's what happens when the wrist and arm are in their most natural, neutral position. It takes tension to move things out of alignment.

In that sense I agree with those who don't like the word "hold" in relation to wrist height, as it's true you don't want to hold anything, just allow the wrist to move freely and naturally (and thus correctly).

As I understand it, it's side-to-side misalignment of the wrist that is most potentially harmful.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

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#2194007 - 12/07/13 02:30 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: jdw]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: jdw
Alignment doesn't take effort, it's what happens when the wrist and arm are in their most natural, neutral position. It takes tension to move things out of alignment.
No. Relax the biceps and the wrist sinks - simple as that.

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#2194010 - 12/07/13 02:37 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
jdw Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/04/11
Posts: 945
Loc: Philadelphia, PA
Surely if you relax the biceps the whole forearm will drop, not the wrist alone.
_________________________
1989 Baldwin R
Currently working on:
Grieg, Papillon
Mozart, K 330
Brahms, Op. 118 no. 2

Top
#2194019 - 12/07/13 02:55 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
Bluoh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 421
Loc: Canada
Perhaps this is a matter of wording? Make sure the wrists aren't contorted to weird angles, relaxed, and you'll get a good sound.

Everyone probably has a different interpretation of "hanging" hands. smile

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#2194027 - 12/07/13 03:08 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: jdw]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: jdw
Surely if you relax the biceps the whole forearm will drop, not the wrist alone.
If the elbow is held forward (Pectoralis major, and anterior fibers of the deltoid) the fingers and palm will rest on the keys.

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#2194081 - 12/07/13 04:21 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: keystring]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: musdan
My teacher is always asking me to lower my wrists - and they somehow do get a little to high. I wonder if there's middle road, neither to high or to low. smile


There is. The most important aspect of the wrist is that it is aligned with the hand/arm. Flexible/supple, yes; but aligned.

But if you try too hard to be aligned, then you end up being stiff. Also, what are the factors of that alignment. For example, if you sit too close then there isn't enough room, and something will bend. If you try to force the alignment, you get tension, so you have to get at the cause. The same for a high or low wrist (in general) - what is the height of your bench? Etc.

Exactly right. If you are out of alignment, for whatever reason, the tension you feel is your body trying to realign so it can perform the given task. The harder the task, the greater proper alignment plays a roll, and the more you feel that tension when you are out of alignment.

The factors that cause you to be out of alignment should be sequentially addressed, and most, eliminated. If you're sitting too close, you shouldn't be. If you're sitting too high or low, you shouldn't be. If you have to force the alignment, then there's something dynamically wrong causing the problem. You have to identify it and get rid of it.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#2194084 - 12/07/13 04:24 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: chopin_r_us]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11578
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
Originally Posted By: jdw
Surely if you relax the biceps the whole forearm will drop, not the wrist alone.
If the elbow is held forward (Pectoralis major, and anterior fibers of the deltoid) the fingers and palm will rest on the keys.

Nothing should be held.
That said, any instruction of physical things on the Internet can be dangerous. Even if it is perfectly correct, how it is taken can be different than how it is meant.

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#2194086 - 12/07/13 04:27 PM Re: Wrists, Hold em up [Re: Sweet06]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Well, you can hang your upper arms by your side, but very few do.

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