Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2193037 - 12/05/13 04:18 PM Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano
phrygian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 223
HI there-

I'm interested in an Ibach 7ft Richard Strauss grand in Mahwah, NJ and am in need of a good PTG tech who specializes in European pianos to give it an unbiased evaluation for me. Mahwah is just on the border of NJ/NY and is about:
17 miles from Hackensack
30 miles from Newark
30 miles from Yonkers
33 miles from Manhattan

If you are able, or know someone who is, please send me a message

many thanks!

Top
(ad PTG 568) Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
Grand Action Regulation in 37 Steps
#2193065 - 12/05/13 05:00 PM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phrygian]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7894
Loc: France
How old is that piano ?

the soundboard is no problem on thjose, but action can be heavy due to mediocre lining or exposition to high moisture.

(Flemming action, with Petrof style keyboard, a little less easy to level due to a short key frame)

Hammers artistically glued, with a finely decided strike line (can look strange at first but it is really done for tonal reasons).

Those can be very good instruments with a specific deep and warm tone in basses, very classical treble, German style.. If the tone please you and the wear is not excessive you could go for it.

For what I could say about those.


If the action is Renner that is of course better, but I suppose it will be only after 1991 +-

Good luck

PS Flemming actions need some simple upgrades, to secure better the rails (hammer/whippen) originally the bolts tend to crush the wood (may be only on some versions)creating geometry changes. Any good restorer or a tech that is used to action work and concert prep on European style pianos, will know how to handle this.



Edited by Olek (12/05/13 05:03 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2193156 - 12/05/13 07:52 PM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phrygian]
phrygian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 223
HI Olek-

It is a 1986 - it does have Renner action I believe.
I tried it yesterday- nice action.

Top
#2200776 - 12/21/13 01:44 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phrygian]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 549
Loc: CO, USA
Hi, Phrygian
Are you still around? I was wondering how this ended up.

Best wishes-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Händel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

Top
#2207825 - 01/04/14 12:41 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phacke]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 549
Loc: CO, USA
Greetings,

I was in the area and thought I would pay a visit to Prime Piano where this Ibach sits for sale. Certainly, Mr. Phrygian's comments got me quite curious. Mr. Stephen Russo, RPT, a very nice man, was in his shop at the time, which exists just behind the piano show room. Mr. Russo said he specializes in action repair and rebuild (not complete piano rebuilds). Here is a picture, pensively looking at the piano (he is usually smiling).



I have to say the Ibach was a very good sounding and playing instrument, better than the Steinway B and D sitting nearby (though the D had some action issue that clouded my judgment) He said he took the Ibach when a nearby piano dealer closed shop, so it was never owned. It has been sitting for sale in one place or another for around 20 y or more. The soundboard has some evidence of compression ridges where individual boards meet. The cheek blocks also had some long cracking of the black polyester finish.


(compression ridges are barely visible in the plate casting hole just to the left of the round maker's symbol in the plate)



Mr. Mario Igrec writes in his book:
...pressure ridges... wood fibers on
the surface of the board have been pushed out of their
normal position. The crushing of wood cells reduces the
compression and lowers the board’s stiffness, which lowers
the board’s wave impedance, increases its resonances,
and reduces sustain. After the board is exposed to climate
swings year after year, cracks appear, indicating further
loss of compression in the board.

So the questions are:
1) What does Mr. Igrec mean above, increases its resonances? We noticed that the bass of this piano, while sounding very good (deep, well balanced over the scale), was comparatively less rich, less singing, not as broad in the harmonics, than some other pianos I have tried (Bösendorfer comes to mind), but still quite good, I think.

2) What are the risks in buying a piano with some obvious compression ridges, indicative of some possible humidity excursion to the high side somewhere in its life? and, is there any follow up examination recommended to better ascertain such risk?

Begging the favor of any comments or thoughts...

Best regards-


Edited by phacke (01/04/14 12:50 AM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Händel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

Top
#2207832 - 01/04/14 01:15 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phrygian]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21664
Loc: Oakland
I do not know what Mr. Igrec means, but I think his conclusions are merely his opinion, and do not have any scientific basis.

My opinion is that pianos can have ridges or cracks, and they make no significant difference to how the piano sounds, particularly since there is no measurement or even agreement on what may constitute a significant difference to how a piano sounds.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2207890 - 01/04/14 05:47 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phrygian]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1956
Loc: Suffolk, England
I believe the geometry of a soundboard largely determines its modes and resonances.

Impedance, defined as the the ratio of force applied to the board to the velocity of the board, has been been measured in studies like this (see Fig 2). You'll see this can vary by a factor of 10 from one note or partial to another. It's not obvious to me how those slight ridges at the joins would make any significant difference but I stand to be corrected with an explanation from the soundboard experts here.

Standing around for 20 years attracting atmospheric particles may have affected the higher partials of the lower notes. If a feather duster can bring up the notes in a concert grand after a few months, some attention to the strings and their bearing/termination points could have a greater effect on an older instrument.

Is it certain that compression caused the ridges?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2208267 - 01/04/14 06:34 PM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phrygian]
phrygian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 223
I would like to publicly thank Phacke for visiting the shop and posting those photos and offering his help here. I did try the piano last month and it sounded very nice and beautiful, especially in the treble, but being that this is my first potential grand piano purchase, and even with all the experience I've had trying various pianos and reading Larry Fine's book, I still don't know exactly what to listen for when testing out a piano. So this is helpful. I second Phacke's opinion of Steve Russo- a very nice guy who wasn't "salesy" at all, just happy to show me the piano and answer any questions. He also spent a good part of the day voicing the piano to my preferences before I showed up to his shop.

My concerns are exactly the same - the compression ridges & the prominent bass / tenor range- a bit dominating at times. Thank you Ian and DBD for your comments as well. Ian, to answer your question- Steve did say they were "compression ridges", so I'm assuming that's what caused them? Unless that's just a loose term that's used that doesn't necessarily mean caused by compression?

Since I'd be using this piano for recording, just trying to figure out how it would fare given a whole bunch of new variables- like the prominent tenor range EQ it seems to have... Perhaps the right microphones and preamp combination can help level the EQ's out in recording?

Also concerned since it is a 1986- and how soon would I need to start replacing parts, i.e. how would it fare in 10, 15, 20 years? And would those compression ridges cause me great problems over time...

I've been advised by one reputable tech of European pianos in the Los Angeles area to "just get a Yamaha C7"- he knows I want to record, & that I don't have a huge budget- so I do understand where he's coming from, BUT as much as I try to like it, I just don't think I'm a Yamaha guy.

I will of course have a tech go and examine the piano if I move forward- I am renting a 7 ft Young Chang right now just to get the feel of having a grand piano in my room.

Top
#2208460 - 01/05/14 02:39 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: Withindale]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 549
Loc: CO, USA
Originally Posted By: Withindale
I believe the geometry of a soundboard largely determines its modes and resonances.

Impedance, defined as the the ratio of force applied to the board to the velocity of the board, has been been measured in studies like this (see Fig 2). You'll see this can vary by a factor of 10 from one note or partial to another. It's not obvious to me how those slight ridges at the joins would make any significant difference but I stand to be corrected with an explanation from the soundboard experts here.

Standing around for 20 years attracting atmospheric particles may have affected the higher partials of the lower notes. If a feather duster can bring up the notes in a concert grand after a few months, some attention to the strings and their bearing/termination points could have a greater effect on an older instrument.

Is it certain that compression caused the ridges?


Thanks for the reference, Mr. Russell. There is indeed quite a bit of variability in the impedance over the frequency range.

What else is on the menu of possibilities of things that cause ridges like that, other than an excessive humidity excursion?

I too believe I have noticed the effects that your wrote about here some time ago whereby cleaning the strings and/or duplex bars has an audible effect.

Best regards-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Händel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

Top
#2208467 - 01/05/14 03:04 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: BDB]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 549
Loc: CO, USA
Originally Posted By: BDB
I do not know what Mr. Igrec means, but I think his conclusions are merely his opinion, and do not have any scientific basis.

My opinion is that pianos can have ridges or cracks, and they make no significant difference to how the piano sounds, particularly since there is no measurement or even agreement on what may constitute a significant difference to how a piano sounds.


Thanks for your feedback, BDB.

I thought about it some more and I think I figured out what Mr. Igrec means by "The crushing of wood cells reduces the compression and lowers the board’s stiffness, which lowers the board’s wave impedance, increases its resonances,
and reduces sustain."

In a weakened board that is less stiff due to cell failure in the wood, the energy from the string transfers quickly and easily, then the piano will sound loud (lots of energy transferring to the more compliant board, lots of resonances) BUT, the strings will run out of energy quickly and there will be very little sustain.

It seems to me if there is compressive failure--crushing of the cells in the wood, it should be of no importance because the good wood is tightly pressed to this region with good continuity. On the other hand, if humidity goes way down, the crushed area could open up to form discontinuities, a different topic.

Best regards-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Händel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

Top
#2208506 - 01/05/14 06:18 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phacke]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1956
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: phacke
What else is on the menu of possibilities of things that cause ridges like that, other than an excessive humidity excursion?

My question was shorthand for what caused the ridges.

Were they due to humidity causing damage to the whole of the soundboard? Alternatively, were they due to some variations in the boards that resulted in localised deformation at the edges developing over time when exposed to normal atmospheric fluctuations after manufacture?

You mention compression ridges but in the passage you quote Igrec refers to pressure ridges that displace wood fibres and says the crushing of the wood cells reduces the compression, presumably of the board. I have seen photographs of such ridges in the middle of sounboard planks.

In other words does Igrec's description apply to this piano and, even so echoing BDB's point, does it matter?

The most important thing is the sound.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2208582 - 01/05/14 11:18 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phrygian]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21664
Loc: Oakland
Wood is a complex material. It is not uniform. If wood is dried and then planed, and then allow to rehydrate, an area of wood which absorbs more water than the surrounding wood will swell up more, causing a ridge. There is no additional stress which caused that ridge. I am not claiming that has happened in any particular situation, but that is an example of how there can be a ridge without undue compression.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2209103 - 01/06/14 02:39 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: Withindale]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 549
Loc: CO, USA
Thank you for your comments, Mr. Russell.
Originally Posted By: Withindale


In other words does Igrec's description apply to this piano?


I think the evidence of the damaged wood fibers at the board edges could be the first stage in the book text that I quoted above.

Originally Posted By: Withindale

...and, even so echoing BDB's point, does it matter?
The most important thing is the sound.


I think it is a valid question -- it could matter.
- Establishing that some pressure ridges have no detrimental effect on the sound reassures the buyer, and it would indicate potential of optimization of the concerns about the sound discussed above by other means (string change, for example), unencumbered by any potential limitation originating from the damage. BDB's opinion of course was that it does not have a detrimental effect.

- The above voiced concern about the durability and life of the soundboard.

- Effect on price, to buy and potentially to resell.

Best wishes-


Edited by phacke (01/06/14 02:53 AM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Händel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

Top
#2209131 - 01/06/14 04:42 AM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phacke]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1956
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: phacke
I think the evidence of the damaged wood fibers at the board edges could be the first stage in the book text that I quoted above.

I had hardwood floor boards in mind when writing my previous post but forgot about the oak ones on our landing. They have been down for 50 years and when I ran my fingers over them yesterday the joins were remarkably smooth. When I searched for them I found minor differences in height in one or two places.

Roughly what proportion of the total length of the joins in the soundboard has ridges?

Why would the soundboard change much in future if kept in a stable environment?

I agree on the price issue.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2209493 - 01/06/14 03:49 PM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: Withindale]
phacke Online   content

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 549
Loc: CO, USA
Hi again, Mr. Russell.

>Roughly what proportion of the total length of the joins in the soundboard has ridges?

I think the OP is in a better position than me to answer on this, so I defer.

>Why would the soundboard change much in future if kept in a stable environment?

Per the discussion above, I would hazard to guess that it would not change much with the luxury of a stable and favorable environment.

Thanks again-


Edited by phacke (01/06/14 11:59 PM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
G. F. Händel: Suite in G minor (HWV 452)
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

Top
#2209554 - 01/06/14 04:38 PM Re: Need indie tech in NE New Jersey for Eval. of Euro piano [Re: phacke]
phrygian Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 223
Originally Posted By: phacke

- Effect on price, to buy and potentially to resell.

Best wishes-


This is one of the problems- I've been told by numerous sources that this particular brand of piano would be very hard to re-sell later down the road, at least for any reasonable kind of price, because it's not a well-known brand here in the U.S. Or at least it would take a long time to re-sell...

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Uneven piano keys
by shah
10/23/14 08:57 AM
Forster vs August Forster
by eazydyonizy
10/23/14 03:43 AM
Grigory Sokolov releases album
by wimpiano
10/23/14 03:11 AM
Lindblad Steinway rebuilt pianos
by brahms
10/23/14 02:54 AM
Got the VPC1! Hooked up the Ivory! Played Brahms.
by TwoSnowflakes
10/23/14 02:13 AM
Who's Online
140 registered (accordeur, ajames, Alexander Borro, Allard, Almaviva, 36 invisible), 1515 Guests and 13 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76623 Members
42 Forums
158439 Topics
2326767 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission