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So how are things going? I haven't started practising yet, but I always play through the whole piece and mark parts that I know will require more attention with a big circle and a comment with my crayon. Later on I will work on these spots more thorough.
I always play the whole piece before practising a certain part. I usually decide on the spot which part that is.


Although it is good to listen to other pianists, but I wouldn't just stick to one IMO. Maybe you end up copying him (Krystian Zimerman in this case) instead of creating your own interpretation.
This is just my opinion.

This is dangerous for me. In my youth I was a faster learner but even now I can pick up a wrong note/fingering very quickly and find it difficult to overcome. For pieces I'm going to learn I tend to just read through a section, without playing, and investigate slowly, one hand at a time.
I agree several pianists is better than one but copying has good and bad sides. True, it may stifle our own creativity, particularly with that particular piece, but it may also serve to improve technique if a virtuoso can bring out a phrase just so and you really have to work to match it. We all have our own uniqueness and copying tends towards the things that appeal most to us but seldom leads us down one path. It is still a valid learning tool in many of the arts. I still long for the day I can copy Rubinstein or Pogorelich and sound like them.

A few questions:

-Which fingers for the trill in bar 25?

-Anyone have suggestions for the RH fingering in order to maintain legato in:

bar 27, (the climb up from B natural, C, D and Eb—I run out of fingers on the D))
bar 28 (the Eb to the D legato)—just slide finger 5 off to the D?
bar 29 (G#, A, Bb, C)—run out of fingers on the Bb)
bar 30 (upper C to Bb)

Or it is ok to just rely on the pedal in these places for legato?

M25 trill: 1-2 (1-4 might be workable)
M27: use 4 on Eb
M28: yes, 5-5
M29: 3 on Bb, 5 on C
M30: 5 on C, 4 on Bb

You shouldn't need pedal to maintain the legato here.

Lolatu, great news about the stand for your piano! You definitely can’t have wobbles while trying to learn the ballade!

Chopinoholic, I think to start I will try to learn up to bar 65. I haven’t yet really practiced 36-43, though I started a bit of that tonight. I’d like to try to memorize that over the next week.

I frequently go over the little notes in bar 33. They still need a lot of work. I’m not sure how to time the LH with those.

I need to work on the notes and then the build up of bar 24 into the trill and beyond.

I’ve also started working through bars 44-65, especially the trapeze part. However, I’m still working on playing it through at a slow tempo.

Thanks Richard for these fingering suggestions! Very helpful!

One more question, for the first trapeze part of the piece, starting on M48, for the LH, how are people playing it? Mainly what fingers do you use to hit the D in the last quarter beat of that bar? Do you use 3, or do you use finger 5 and quickly switch off to 1 so that 5 is free to hit the G at the beginning of the next bar?

Next sections....

BARS 36-44: THEME 1 AT DOUBLE SPEED

neuralfirings, can you explain how this is theme one at double speed? I’m not sure I understand.

Bars 36-39: I’ve only just started practicing this section. It starts piano.

Bars 40-43: this section is marked agitato. It starts forte. Beats 2 and 5 have the emphasis (whereas they were not marked in bars 36 to 39). I have a note that says the LH comes out on beats 3 and 6.

This section builds up and leads into the crazy trapeze part in bars 48 to 53.

Well that’s a sparse analysis. Maybe I’ll have more thoughts after I practice it.



TRANSITION/MODULATION: BARS 45-66

This section marks the transition between Theme 1 in G minor (Bars 8 to 32) and Theme II in Eb Major (Bars 67-81). It is marked “sempre piu mosso” which means always moving or with more motion. 44-48 seem to follow one pattern, and then there is a switch through bars 48 to 53. In the latter bars there is an accent on the LH chords in each measure. There is an octave change in the LH in M50, and in the RH in M51. It looks like the entire RH from 48-53 is under one phrase so much be played smoothly. This is an interesting trapeze section for the RH, which I believe PiA also noted.

M48 is marked forte. But then what happens in bars 52-55?

M56-65 is very beautiful and reminds me of stormy, treacherous waves in the ocean slowing down and coming to a calm. My score is marked crescendo on the way up of each RH run and diminuendo on the way down. I have a note to make the LH chords in 56/57, 60/61 and 64/65 prominent. But this whole section also comes to a calm by the end with a riten. by M66 and then the first pp of the piece in M68.

There is a calando above M63 which means dying away or gradually decreasing in tone and speed. And then smorz. above M64 which is short for “smorzando” and means to gradually slow down and soften the notes until nothing is heard. A diminuendo that fades slow and is often accompanied by a very gradual ritardando. http://piano.about.com/od/termsrelatingtodynamics/g/GL_smorz.htm

re: double speed, I don't really know what I saw originally. I think I heard or read it as double speed, and it made sense at the time.

Good luck on the trapeze section (http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=48&end=49). It's a doozy. I'm still working on it and I suspect will be for a while before it is up to tempo.

As for fingering, I basically follow the Mikuli editions fingering (the one on Notable Scores). I find that better suits the fingering to the shape of the left hand phrasing. Maybe others have better suggestions?

re: bars 52-55, if we're going with your stormy visuals.. then maybe this is like the tornado taking shape? It winds up faster and tighter and more and more tense, then the winds hit in the next section.

My LH fingering for M48 onwards is 5-3-2-1 for the chord then 1-3-5-3-1, chord, 1-3-5. The second half starts on 5 with 4-3-2-1 for the chord then repeats the first pattern.

I see M36-67 as a bridge passage in two parts, the first increases to M48 (at which the più mosso should have reached maximum mosso), the second decreases to M67 in three stages from M48-52, M52-56, and M56-67, this last being the soothing hand, rising and falling gently against the comforting gestures of the LH, calming the vexations of the hero at the fate of, perhaps, his beloved country. M56 should presage the dim. and rit. culminating in the calm of 67, out of which will emerge, perhaps, the sentimental reflections of childhood in that country.

The figure in M36 closes with a tied note whereas in the agitato it closes with a rest. I may have misinterpreted your LH "comes out" in beats 3 and 6 but I would prefer "comes off" with a soft staccato. Without this softening and abrupt finish the agitato loses its effect, I think, and the final LH notes would rise rather than fall.

How is everyone doing with the Ballade?

Thanks neuralfirings and richard. I’ve memorized up to bar 65, but I'm still trying to get 36-43 –that is, to get my fingers to remember which notes to hold down and which to lift up. (because these things are different in 36-39 compared to 40-43). Thanks for pointing out the tied note versus the rest Richard. I'd missed that in all the other details and now have to add that in to this section of practice!

There is *lots* to practice and work on in these first three pages. Do you think it is best to pause here and work in more detail, or continue on to get the next section memorized? (68-93). I have not really practiced this next section at all yet. Once I memorize a section, then I can really start to work on the musical aspects. The memorization is tough though and takes me significant time. Though I’ve learned up to bar 65, my memory is still slow to fire in many places. That’s the kind of thing that it seems only repetition over time helps. (Unless someone else knows another approach for this problem?) I want to focus on the first 3 pages, but also know that the memorizing of the next part will be a lot of work and wonder if I should get started on it.

I won't be going back to this piece until around April, Valencia, when the Tchaikovsky is out of the way.

I would allow the new material to settle in before going further. If you don't do this, there's a higher chance that weaknesses in the passage will be left unattended as you focus more on the newer areas. I tend to get each learned passage to a point where it no longer needs daily repetition and I can keep it simmering on Saturdays and Sundays before going on to the next one.

If your memory is slow to fire in places keep the sections short enough that it isn't a problem. You don't want to memorise the pauses. I wouldn't have all 65 bars as one section for some considerable time.

My feeling is that the hard work ahead will be easier if the current section is no longer draining your reserves but only you and your journal can verify if that's the best way forward for you.

Learning this piece is going to be an adventure. My instinct is to learn all the sections as individual passages and put them together when they're all done and you can run one onto the other without dropping the tempo.

Thanks Richard. I took your advice and am staying with the first 65 bars for awhile. I was worried about trying to get to bar 106 which you mentioned was probably where you would start in April after the Tchaikovsky recital. But I don’t know if I can make it to there by that time. However I could always start there at that time and just leave 66-105 until later.

For bars 1-65, there are many things for me to work on. M36-43 are proving challenging to play fluently.

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=36&end=43

Though just playing things over and over is not the best way to practice, I don’t know how else to drill in a section like this.

I’m still trying to get 24 to 32 fluent, and to keep the melody in the RH sounding strong throughout, especially in the places where fingers 4 and 5 of the RH are responsible for the melody. My playing is weak in those places.

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=24&end=32

The little notes in bar 33 are coming but still not near fast and light enough, and I stumble sometimes.

The tempo of 48-52 is of course still slow and I need to work on accuracy with the octave transition.

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=48&end=52

And then the arpeggios from 56 to 65 need to be faster and lighter.

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=56&end=65


I know this is something that could take time over months of practice, not just days or weeks, but even so like to feel a little more solid in these sections before I take on the next part of the piece.

So, lots to focus on in these first three pages. I am really enjoying my work on this piece so far. Frustration will come though…it always does….haha.:)

The other part I’ve looked at is the scherzando, because my memory gives me trouble when I can’t see a pattern or connection with the notes. So, I’ve been focusing on:

M130-137
http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=130&end=137

M146-149
http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=146&end=149

M150-153

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=150&end=153

These sections are very tricky memory-wise for me, and so I’m getting them going now so that I have several months for them to sink into my brain before I actually really practice that particular section.

How is everyone else doing with their practicing?

Yep, that's what I'll be doing!

It's among the worst. Drilling doesn't allow the brain to sort out the mess while you sleep. The technique in M36-39 is the same except the last figure in M39. So just do M39 two or three times carefully each day until it's easy. Then do it once each day and M38 two or three times. Keep going until you've got back to M36. If you work forwards it's easy to go too far and reach the straw that breaks the camel's back. You can more easily stop when you reach familiar territory instead of ploughing on trying to extend ever further.

Repeat for M43 to M40, once through each bar you know and three times through the one you're adding.

Two phrases of two and half bars and two of two bars. Work each phrase and the first note of the next two or three times each. Let sleep do the rest. Play the melody notes normally with a bit of wrist assistance and keep the arm weight on those notes while you play all the other notes whisper quiet without any arm weight.

Have you established the finger groups? Work each group on its own a couple of times, plus the first note of the next. Again, it's best to work backwards. Speed will come when your fingers know where to go or you can play each group while you're thinking about the next so don't think about speed until then. Rhythms might be good here.

The other passages are the same kind of work, needing speed AND accuracy AND memorising. You might find it difficult doing this amount of memorising each day. When the other passages are memorised and you just need to build speed then memorise these other bits. Use a little time for memorising work, then use some for memorised passages that need accuracy. Then spend a little time on accurate passages that need a bit more speed. The end result should come much faster this way.

Took me months ( about 3 ) to get the Coda up to speed and memorized. than after working on a couple of more sections I decided to suspend the work because I was getting a little too fed up and I stopped enjoying the music.
I had to confess that I don't really love Chopin music, but I do strongly appreciate the leap in technique that his music facilitate.

that to say... if you can finish the coda, you can complete the ballade. not the other way around... and considering you'll get there quite "tired" it's better to start from the end and work it backwards in sections, so, while performing, the anxiety of encountering progressively difficult sections will be defeated by the fact that you have played it for a longer time... otherwise, IMHO, would be very frustrating to get to the last 3 pages after 6 month of works and have to spend another 3 months for 3 short ( actually, 1 and 1/5 ) hard page.

I'll pick up the ballade later on, I want to work on the Scherzo in b flat minor first. :-)

Thanks Richard. What do you mean by finger groups for the little notes in bar 33? This week I tried to practice starting from the high G: 54321, then 23, then 54321, then 23123, then 54321. I can play it slowly but I know if I go faster I will make mistakes and end up derailed.

Working backwards through the phrases is hard! I tried that a little this week but should practice more of it. 36-43 is getting into my fingers slowly but it will be some time yet.

As for getting the melody to ring out through bars 26-30, I almost injured my RH hand this week trying to play it so I need to relax and be more careful. Maybe I will practice the RH with the proper fingering but without the bottom notes until I have the melody solid.

Ataru074, thanks for sharing your experiences with the coda! That you could play the coda at tempo within 3 mo is pretty amazing to me! I don't expect to ever be able to play it at tempo. I agree that it is a tough section to be left with at the end of all the other practicing. That's why I like to start tackling the hardest parts of a piece early on so that I can practice them alongside the rest of the piece. I've practiced some of the coda a little (no serious practicing yet...just getting a sense of what is to come). Of course the tempo aspect will be very challenging and I don't actually expect to get it. But so far I am not afraid of the notes of that section, *except* the scales, which I am terrible at generally (as in, I am terrible at all scales). At this point I am more afraid of the middle of the piece. But this might change when I get to the coda and have to try to learn it well. Well actually, maybe the scales in the coda are scaring me quite a bit too. The two ascending ones, and then prior to that, the chromatic up and then the descent...:\

The groups are how you divide the passage for practising. They may either be rhythmic groups or they make be groups between changes of hand position.

You have noted:
54321
23
54321
23123
54321

I have the measure broken up as three groups of four and three groups of six to coordinate the LH better and I'd also practise alternately as six groups of two and six groups of three to try and manage the speed change more reliably.

I use different fingering (I can't use yours fast enough) but my groups are:
(1)4321
5341
5432
123543
131212
354321

Thinking hard, not playing hard so it makes concentration easier and thus you learn faster. Plus, you can't get bored if you're concentrating!

Gasp! What are you doing that risks injuring your RH???

Play the melody gently with arm weight. No accompaniment. When you're ready brush the other RH fingers against the keys but don't play them. Then add soft LH. Then play the other RH fingers but keep concentrating on soft melody and eke it out gently from the shoulder.

Get the fingers to work properly. The speed will come when they know themselves what's wanted of them, so to speak.

If you don't practise them then maybe you could start. If you do practise then maybe you could stop and instead practise pieces with scale passages in them e.g. Bach - Invention No. 4, Mozart - K. 545 or Schubert - Scherzo No. 2 in D flat. I don't do scales as much as I used to but I work my socks off trying to get the second half of Mozart's Allegro smooth and even.

Thanks for this helpful reply Richard. For some reason I thought I'd responded to you but I guess that was only in my head! Sorry about that!

How is everyone coming along with the Ballade? Anyone still working on it? Or about to start?

I'm working away at it and am having a lot of fun. There are many aspects of the first three pages to bar 65 that will need time and continued practice. 52 to 65 are especially tricky for me. http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=52&end=65

That said, those octaves from 106 to 123 will need lots of work so I'm thinking to at least start on those and get them going. Was thinking to leave the transition section that comes right before it until later.

http://www.notablescores.com/pieces/1?start=106&end=106

I can't count the number of times I've hit 'Preview Reply', proofread the post and, satisfied it was OK, moved on without hitting 'Submit'.

How well have you got 48/49 - the first four groups of three before the pattern repeats? I think this is key to the whole passage to M55.

My method of sorting this passage out is to work this basic pattern as four groups of three, then as four groups of four including the first (double) note of the next group, then two groups of six (the two inner groups, Bb+F#-A-D, with the octave descent cycled a few times and the outer groups, C+G-Bb-D, with the turn upwards cycled a few times) and finally as one group of twelve notes cycled a few times.

Each group of three would have to be played really fast a few times. It's only playing fast that the mechanics can be understood and the movement minimised. As the number of notes increase so the speed must come down and the final group of twelve will be quite slow by comparison but will increase over time toward the initial group-of-three burst speed.

The tricky bit here, for me, is the change from white-black-white in the outer groups to black-white-black for the inner groups. My middle finger wants to hit Ab instead of A natural. Getting the angle of the hand just right fixes it for me.

I wouldn't plan on extending to M55 or adding the LH until this basic operation was fast and fluent with just RH.
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As I mentioned earlier, my current plan is to start on the Presto in a couple of weeks (April 20). I'll see you there!

Started!

Last night I started practicing the ballade. I'm planning to start with M122-M206.
Beginning really slow to give most attention to the fingering, Which is in my opinion extremely important to put the notes in the 'muscle memory'. This will help increasing the speed in the (hopefully) near future.

I'm really excited. I try and give progress comments every now and then.

How is it going with you guys?

Hmm?

Starting next week at M208-216!

What prep. work have you done, Paul?

This is one of the last pieces my teacher gave me before I relocated back in '84. We went through it sequentially to around M105 and I had a few cursory attempts at it since then but nothing serious. (I played it once from sight when drink got the better of me in my youth in front a suitably and equally inebriated audience at an after-play-party following a successful amateur dramatic performance!)

Valencia stirred my current passion for it and in the intervening years I've memorised the piece in my head and analysed it a good deal. I have some ideas about how I want it to sound.

There are various ways of dividing this up into manageable sections and we've examined some earlier in the thread but none of my mine would be as large as M122-206.

Do you have a more detailed plan and would you care to share it?

Hi Richard,


Weird sentence, I agree...


That's some progression! Have you gone through everything up to this?



I know the piece pretty well. The prep work includes basically the same you guys have already done here. Divide the piece up in sections and identify technical difficulties before hand.



The plan is, learn the notes and the fingering. Usually when beginning a piece, I start at the beginning, but in this case I want to start with the part before the coda. Once I'm able to play this part at about two thirds of the pace, I'm going for the coda.

Every now and then I will go through the whole piece.

I have respect for you guys working the way you do, but that's not how I practice. I first want to play a large chunk, and picking out the hard parts as I go along.
Reading the notes has never been a major issue for me. Memorizing though, has been difficult always. Usually when I play a piece from the top of my head I rely on muscle memory mostly.