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#2195784 - 12/10/13 09:06 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Many intervals exhibit anomalous behaviour. All aural tuners who use all the test intervals in the whole piano must have noticed them, particularly how single octave size and double octave size change places on several notes in and around the top octave, even in the best pianos..
This is maybe the most readily apparent of them, at least it's the first one I ever noticed as an ardent student of all this. It's only about 30 years ago that I started to choose the single octave to tune to instead of the double octave when the alternatives were too noisy in the smaller intervals. That was the time I started working in more recording studios and spending more time listening to playbacks with other musicians than tuning. (1 hour tuning/3hours listening).

Bass strings exhibit even more random exchanges but that's to be expected even in the largest pianos. Far too random to try to marshal them into some sort of order.

ETD's never pick up on them or pick up on the wrong ones.

A wizened old tuner once told me, don't listen too hard, you'll go crazy. Maybe that's what's happnin'.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196421 - 12/12/13 05:21 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi,

Posted in the "Sample" thread:

Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Does the pianist not have at least something to say about it? It's not like he's poking around on an old Underwood. He takes the best that the tuner can provide with what he has to work with and creates his desire with very specific skills at his finger tips.


I must confess to not listening again, I started to but refused to pick through all the talking but the pianist can do much more than we think.

The sustain varies very subtly from note to note in all pianos. A stage piano doesn't always get the maintenance it should and equality of sustain suffers.
while there are ways of poking through the strings with a long needle to obtain more sustain from the hammer, tuning on the day of a big production like this rarely allows for any refinement.

I have to sincerely question isaacs experience of this kind of work. He claims to know but his comments show a distinct lack of understanding. There's more of self promotion in his nit picking criticism. I would expect sympathy with the situation from a real fellow professional. He sounds to me like a really talented amateur who hangs around the profession and then totally falls apart when the real job has to be done. I've known quite a few.


rxd,

I think that only a boor would direct those words to a technician as Isaac, and I do not see how that style can help to describe our work. I think you ought to apologize.
.


I quite agree and understand fully where you're coming from and the emotional content carried over from other threads. - an all too common occurrence.
Since you raised the issue again, It took a few words in order to address an ongoing problem. A totally unfounded, unnecessary and pretentious criticism of a compressed recording couldn't go unchallenged at the same level.

Am I to assume that you agree with isaacs original "criticism" when he himself posted later an admission that he really couldn't tell the difference between what was the piano and what was the tuning and then delete that post a few hours later?

I suggest you read the complete thread. It's all there and doesn't need the deleted parts to be indefensible.

Constructive criticism-Yes.
Self serving, Ill considered boorish and unfounded carping,- a resounding No.


rxd, when you mention "..the emotional content carried over from other threads..", do you mean this thread? Or is it the "How long should it take?", where you wrote:

Originally Posted By: rxd
[/quote]
........ and I think about art.

Best regards, a.c.
.

In all branches of the arts, phrases like this have long been regarded, rightly or wrongly as the last refuge of a charlatan.

I have read some of your work as presented here and experimented with some of it.

You have just another opinion. It is a different twist on an old problem that has been pondered and discussed by generations of fine mainstream tuners who have had to tune the old designs of smaller grands produced by some of the finest makers. Your solution still doesn't address the basic problems.

When I pondered whether or not to dine with you, one of the issues I considered was whether I would be spending a bright convivial evening with a fellow professional or would I be taken hostage by an intense and over enthusiastic amateur. Most people have relationships. Some take others hostage and think it is a relationship.

I asked you directly of your professional experience and you gave me a brief dismissive and evasive answer. I also answered fully to some of your direct technical and artistic questions of me. Your replies to my answers betrayed that you hadn't the feintest idea what I was talking about. It's all in the archives here.

Now you resort to an attempt to insult us all and in the name of art no less.
Ooooooo get you!!.

Let yourself out when you've finished tuning and switch off the lights. We're going to bed.


What I am saying, rxd, is that your insinuations do not help, and in the Sample thread I was not concerned about me, but Isaac.

Sure, I cannot say I am happy to read that I would be a charlatan, or an amateur, or one that would try to take you hostage, or... crazy, as you last wrote in this thread.

Let me suggest: take it easy, be respectful and filter your thoughts and fantasies three times before you post.

About theoretical and practical/technical contents... later on.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2196424 - 12/12/13 06:00 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Sorry, everyone, I appear to have picked up another self obsessed stalker in the above post who, not content with insulting us all and being censured for it, has chosen to mix up the content of two different threads for their own ends.

I apologise to you all for any inconvenience or confusion this has caused.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196425 - 12/12/13 06:27 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
IMO, there is little to be sorry about, when we try to be clearer.

You confirm your attitude again, rxd. BTW, do you have a name and surname?
_________________________
alfredo

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#2196428 - 12/12/13 06:50 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
I have read the threads about CHAS, and I must admit I don't get it, even if I have a solid mathematical background.

Can someone explain it to me in plain terms? Or at least in mathematically unambiguous terms?

Would it be possible to tune CHAS with TuneLab?


Hi pinkfloydhomer,

Unfortunately I do not know what the user can do with TL, and I am not familiar with recent ETD's; I guess Robert Scott may say, perhaps it is worth a PM?

As for the Chas maths, which is the point you do not get?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2196430 - 12/12/13 07:11 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
IMO, there is little to be sorry about, when we try to be clearer.

You confirm your attitude again, rxd. BTW, do you have a name and surname?


No he does not have a real name. He is a robot from a Boy Scout project that went horribly wrong. rxd is just a model number.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2196441 - 12/12/13 07:46 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: rxd]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 394
Loc: Boston, MA
Oh no, he found it..

This thread, even though already resolved, is about to become extremely confusing. And long.

Originally Posted By: Alfredo
Let me suggest: take it easy, be respectful and filter your thoughts and fantasies three times before you post.


This is great advice that you should follow yourself, Alfredo.

Originally Posted By: Alfredo
About theoretical and practical/technical contents... later on.


It always is later on, even if unsolicited. And when you do explain, you never do really explain.

Yes, I think it is clear to everyone that CHAS is more about your own personal show than presenting something of worth.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

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#2196450 - 12/12/13 08:40 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Xd is the original model designation but it all went horribly wrong.
Started to exhibit human traits and developed attitude problems so the R prefix stands for "rebuilt". Now the attitudes are just right.

Some in the piano profession in a few parts of the world know exactly who I am. Some even know who I used to be, still fewer know what I used to be.

Nobody knows why.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196452 - 12/12/13 08:45 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: rxd]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Xd is the original model designation but it all went horribly wrong.
Started to exhibit human traits and developed attitude problems so the R prefix stands for "rebuilt". Now the attitudes are just right.

Some in the piano profession in a few parts of the world know exactly who I am. Some even know who I used to be. still fewer know what I used to be.


And NOBODY, oops, nobody knows what you will become! (Or are you becoming?... naaah)
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2196454 - 12/12/13 08:48 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
I am becoming very becoming.

Thanks for a good belly laugh, Jeff

Oh, the original Xd couldn't laugh at itself.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2196460 - 12/12/13 09:05 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Bernhard Stopper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/08
Posts: 204
Loc: Germany
-
_________________________
Bernhard Stopper
www.piano-stopper.de

Salieri: "Mediocrities everywhere, now and to come: I absolve you all! Amen! Amen! Amen!"
(Amadeus, the movie)

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#2196465 - 12/12/13 09:11 AM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Not meaning to be rude, Mr Stopper, but without any knowledge of your own ideas beyond scraps and vague desriptions and the odd video, your ideas are no better communicated than alfredo's, IMO, and both seem to be wrapped very much in self-promotion (although you do actually have a product to sell, which is fine). You just have the good sense not to try and promote it heavily to the members of this board.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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#2196553 - 12/12/13 01:10 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: alfredo capurso]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 156
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi pinkfloydhomer,

Unfortunately I do not know what the user can do with TL, and I am not familiar with recent ETD's; I guess Robert Scott may say, perhaps it is worth a PM?

As for the Chas maths, which is the point you do not get?

Regards, a.c.
.


Hi Alfredo, thanks for answering.

What I don't/didn't get about CHAS is/was ... everything smile

I understand the tonal system, I understand various unequal temperaments, I understand equal temperament, I understand the ditonic and the syntonic comma, I understand inharmonicity, I understand what a 6:3 octave is or what a 3:1 twelfth is, I understand what beats are, I understand what equal beating is, I understand what fast and slow beating intervals are, I understand a lot of music theory and I understand the idea behind most aural tuning schemes that I encounter. They all seem to take all of the above into account.

But I didn't understand CHAS since it wasn't precisely described in the threads about it on this forum.

I guess I understand now that CHAS is about equal beating 12ths and 15ths and about a slightly larger semitone ratio than the 12th root of 2? Or is there more to it?

This must be even before we take inharmonicity into account. Taking IH into account, semitone ratio is always greater than the 12th root of 2 on a real piano with positive IH, even if it is tuned in equal temperament. So I guess on a real piano tuned in CHAS, the semitone ratio becomes even greater than the theoretical CHAS semitone because of IH.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2196572 - 12/12/13 02:30 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi pinkfloydhomer,

Unfortunately I do not know what the user can do with TL, and I am not familiar with recent ETD's; I guess Robert Scott may say, perhaps it is worth a PM?

As for the Chas maths, which is the point you do not get?

Regards, a.c.
.


Hi Alfredo, thanks for answering.

What I don't/didn't get about CHAS is/was ... everything smile

I understand the tonal system, I understand various unequal temperaments, I understand equal temperament, I understand the ditonic and the syntonic comma, I understand inharmonicity, I understand what a 6:3 octave is or what a 3:1 twelfth is, I understand what beats are, I understand what equal beating is, I understand what fast and slow beating intervals are, I understand a lot of music theory and I understand the idea behind most aural tuning schemes that I encounter. They all seem to take all of the above into account.

But I didn't understand CHAS since it wasn't precisely described in the threads about it on this forum.

I guess I understand now that CHAS is about equal beating 12ths and 15ths and about a slightly larger semitone ratio than the 12th root of 2? Or is there more to it?

This must be even before we take inharmonicity into account. Taking IH into account, semitone ratio is always greater than the 12th root of 2 on a real piano with positive IH, even if it is tuned in equal temperament. So I guess on a real piano tuned in CHAS, the semitone ratio becomes even greater than the theoretical CHAS semitone because of IH.


Hi pinkfloydhomer,

It is as you say, Chas semitone ratio is slightly larger than the 12th root of 2.

Also the rest is correct: "This must be even before we take inharmonicity into account. Taking IH into account, semitone ratio is always greater than the 12th root of 2 on a real piano with positive IH, even if it is tuned in equal temperament. So I guess on a real piano tuned in CHAS, the semitone ratio becomes even greater than the theoretical CHAS semitone because of IH."

In Chas equation (3-delta)^(1/19)= (4+s*delta)^(1/24)

12ths and 15ths deviate from 3:1 and 4:1 depending on the parameter "s";

for s=1 12ths and 15ths deviate by the same (delta) amount.

That's all.

Cheers, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2196629 - 12/12/13 04:47 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: alfredo capurso]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 156
Okay then, but can you explain to me in short, precise terms why the CHAS semitone ratio is desirable and better than other suggestions (most notable 12th root of 2), and also why equal beating 12ths and 15ths are better than other approaches?

Why isn't CHAS just one more random way to tune? Why is it special? What sets it apart? It must have some kind of fundamental idea binding it together. And idea that it must be possible to express in short and precise terms to an educated audience. An executive summary.
_________________________
Amateur pianist working on: Bach. And amateur tuning, regulation and servicing of my own piano.
Piano: Frustrating and cheap Dongbei Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

Top
#2196640 - 12/12/13 05:09 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
I have read the threads about CHAS, and I must admit I don't get it, even if I have a solid mathematical background.

Can someone explain it to me in plain terms? Or at least in mathematically unambiguous terms?

Would it be possible to tune CHAS with TuneLab?

Going back to your original question, PFH, this thread and the one about Stopper's temperament have shown that it's not possible to tune CHAS with Tunelab.

CHAS is a heuristic method of tuning rather than a deterministic one with offsets you can feed into an ETD.

Alfredo has set out the method in some detail (see this English translation) and explained that he allows for "variable stretch" in his tunings (see his post in the Stopper thread yesterday).

As I see it, you will never know in advance what the values of his "s" variables will be. To achieve the beat rate progression curves he is looking for stretch may swing between pure octaves and pure twelfths; conceivably more I suppose.

No doubt you are familiar with those Railsback diagrams with smooth curves approximating inharmonicity and jagged lines showing actual tunings. A Railsback curve represents a mathematical model which is a figment of the imagination. The jagged line is reality.

Don't get me wrong, I am a great believer in mathematical models. They can do a lot, but I know their limitations.

You will never get CHAS from Alfredo's equations, nor will anyone else. It's the tunings that matter.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2196643 - 12/12/13 05:23 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 394
Loc: Boston, MA
This it does not have.

It does not have this because CHAS is a retroactive arithmetical explanation for subjective, qualitative field experience that has led a lot of tuners to believe tuning near the 12th works best on the modern piano.

It works backwards, not forwards. It provides a gum-and-tape explanation for complex interactions. As a result of this, it cannot be used as a model to work forward or predict anything physical in terms of real pianos.

Not only that, but the mathematical model is insufficient and incorrect. It does not model what Alfredo claims it does. I've modelled this in MatLab some time ago.

The positive role this model could have is giving new tuners a more quantitative view for the goal of tuning. Used in general conceptual terms, it could be helpful.

Originally Posted By: Withindale
CHAS is a heuristic method of tuning rather than a deterministic one with offsets you can feed into an ETD.

Alfredo has set out the method in some detail (see this English translation) and explained that he allows for "variable stretch" in his tunings (see his post in the Stopper thread yesterday).

As I see it, you will never know in advance what the values of his "s" variables will be. To achieve the beat rate progression curves he is looking for stretch may swing between pure octaves and pure twelfths; conceivably more I suppose.

No doubt you are familiar with those Railsback diagrams with smooth curves approximating inharmonicity and jagged lines showing actual tunings. A Railsback curve represents a mathematical model which is a figment of the imagination. The jagged line is reality.

Don't get me wrong, I am a great believer in mathematical models. They can do a lot, but I know their limitations.

You will never get CHAS from Alfredo's equations, nor will anyone else. It's the tunings that matter.


+1


Edited by Tunewerk (12/12/13 05:33 PM)
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

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#2197209 - 12/13/13 07:09 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: pinkfloydhomer
Okay then, but can you explain to me in short, precise terms why the CHAS semitone ratio is desirable and better than other suggestions (most notable 12th root of 2), and also why equal beating 12ths and 15ths are better than other approaches?

Why isn't CHAS just one more random way to tune? Why is it special? What sets it apart? It must have some kind of fundamental idea binding it together. And idea that it must be possible to express in short and precise terms to an educated audience. An executive summary.


Hi pinkfloydhomer,

Yes, I can try, but at some point we will have to address theory and practice separately, so that we do not get confused.

@ ...why the CHAS semitone ratio is desirable...

Here I can only talk subjectively, I was longing for a ratio (and tuning criteria) that my sense_of_intonation could justify, and that ratio was lacking. That “desire” made me start with my research... on the one hand there was no way to tune pure octaves, on the other hand there was no need to avoid faintly beating octaves... This made me believe that perhaps a better scale_geometry could be found, that it could depend on strict application.

@ ...and better than other suggestions (most notable 12th root of 2)...

There is no way we can put 12th root of two into practice; that ratio favors pure_octaves (2:1), and in doing so it doubles all other intervals deviation values, every other octave; the Chas semitone ratio is “better” in that it spreads deviations amongst all intervals, so that - octave after octave - all intervals can progress together, as part of a whole.

@ ...why equal beating 12ths and 15ths are better than other approaches?...

12ths and 15ths..., because in this way we actually stretch the fourth (4:3 - in between the 12th and the 15th) which is the interval that first closes a circle (we say so, but it is a spiral), enumerating the number (4*3) of semitones.

@ ...Why isn't CHAS just one more random way to tune?...

The Chas model has nothing against “random” tunings, i.e. tunings that may result from any other semitone ratio, that is the meaning of the “s” variable; in fact, this is a fundamental passage: we are expected (and enabled) to modify the ratio in order to set the “desired” semitone progression; on the other hand, s=1 defines the most coherent geometry.

@ ...Why is it special?...

The Chas ratio (with s=1) is special in that it is self-referential: by stretching the fourth (4:3), we determine the constraint for 12ths (3:1) and 15ths (4:1), and s=1 fixes that constraint in 1:1 proportion.

@ ...What sets it apart?

Maximum coherence.

@ ...It must have some kind of fundamental idea binding it together...

No interval needs to be pure;

Deviations define “color”, more than pure intervals;

Deviations need to be ordered in proportion;

We can order scale frequencies and deviations with one ratio;

What we need to consider, represent and aim at, it's a dynamic (beating) whole, then we can set the premises.

@ ...And idea that it must be possible to express in short and precise terms to an educated audience. An executive summary.

I do make use of a PowerPoint with some short phrases and graphs... are you asking for that?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2208734 - 01/05/14 03:11 PM Re: CHAS for Dummies [Re: pinkfloydhomer]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1053
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi,

Phil, it is a bit of a shame that my sharings on this board appears as self-promotion, as if I wanted to sell something... Honestly, I do not understand what is giving this impression, if not my mere enthusiasm when I think that, three hundred years ago, these results would have remained the preserve of a few. Anyway, thank you for posting and for pointing that out (and thanks PW for providing this opportunity).

Tunewerk, I hope you will be able to compare the Chas model with other models and soon realize that the tonal scale is now tailored correctly. About maths, try not to confuse notions, for instance what “equality” means, and about tuning in general, try to help other colleagues understand now why the octave needs to be stretched. Oh, it would be great if you could help also Jeff, Chris, Kees and Bill.. :-)

Here is a link to some literature:
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/bibliography.html#C

Ian, thank you for your posts... seeing how other posters mix up notions, concepts and practical issues, I find your lines refreshing.

To All, have a nice Epiphany.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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