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#2195535 - 12/10/13 12:22 PM does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 110
Loc: Switzerland
I have all of the three book written by Carl-Johan Forss.
They are in German but I try to translate the part (shortened form), where he shows his hammer technique in his third book:

First push the hammer away from you to lower the pitch.
Than pull on the tuning lever to raise the pitch over target till you hear 1 - 2 beats per second when e.g. tuning a unison.

Now he desrcribes one more movement: one should hold the lever with the opened hand and gently jerk the lever away from the piano towards you, till the beat has disappeared.

Does anyone of you tune like this? I miss the unbending and setting of the pin. I tried it for curiosity reasons, but the tuning will not hold long. He said, that it is difficult to master, but when mastered, the tuning will hold for a long time.

Thanks for all feedbacks.

Best wishes Toni
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

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#2195664 - 12/10/13 05:13 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Maine
Well, it worked for him. He sold books!

(I, for one, don't use that method.)
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2195886 - 12/11/13 05:03 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Toni,
The description is not making sense to me. It suggests to me pulling above pitch then jerking further above. Perhaps I'm misreading. It does not specify the lever angle.

I have, however, regularly followed tuners whose final movement was that clockwise "slap" at around 2.30 or so angle.
I did not find them any more solid than the other tuners on the team.

_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2195912 - 12/11/13 07:38 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Yes, I have used that technique when the pins are very tight, but the rendering is very easy.

EVERY technique will work for a PARTICULAR set of circumstances. I don't belive there is any ONE technique that will work for them ALL. The more techniques you know, the more options you have.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2195971 - 12/11/13 09:33 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: UnrightTooner]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 293
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
EVERY technique will work for a PARTICULAR set of circumstances. I don't belive there is any ONE technique that will work for them ALL. The more techniques you know, the more options you have.


Hear hear! The piano tells you what technique you need to use on it.

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#2195989 - 12/11/13 10:16 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
TunerJeff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 498
Loc: Oregon Coast
Toni,

I am with Jeff on this. Learn all you can, and then you'll have what you need for whatever you run into. Different techniques are needed for different pianos.

My take on this technique is simply that he (Carl) is lowering the tension slightly, freeing the string and rendering, pulling it slightly sharp insuring that the pin has moved, and then setting it with a slight pull down/forward to set the pin and string.

Nothing wrong or unusual in this. Works for a lot of people. As long as the pin has moved enough, and not too much, it would be a stable technique.

No worries!
_________________________
Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
Oregon Coast Piano Services
TunerJeff440@aol.com

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#2195997 - 12/11/13 10:40 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 110
Loc: Switzerland
Dear tuners

Thanks for your answers. Today is my teaching day and during a break I made a little video. Rxd, you missunderstood me, not jerking further above me, towards me, not clockwise, not couterclockwise, in an 90 degree angle to the pins, the tuning lever in a 12o'clock position. I am wondering if a tuning will hold without untwist the pin, by simply create more tension in the non speaking length with this jerking motion towards me.
Here is the link, I hope it works:

http://youtu.be/4NsST8oFhE0

I normally do not tune this way, and I don't know how long this note will stay in tune. I will teach another four hours today on this piano, so afterwards I will hear if it is still in tune.

Thanks again for your replies. Have all a very good day.

Toni
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

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#2196006 - 12/11/13 11:00 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: UnrightTooner]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Yes, I have used that technique when the pins are very tight, but the rendering is very easy.

EVERY technique will work for a PARTICULAR set of circumstances. I don't belive there is any ONE technique that will work for them ALL. The more techniques you know, the more options you have.


Jeff, not like you t shout. Wats'up?

Toni asked a simple question about a particular technique that is quite unusual.

Did anybody read precicely what to Toni wrote? To me it wasnt very clear but it certainly didnt sound like your bog standard technique and something was missing from the middle of the description. He did say shortened form. Perhaps we need to hear the long form before firing off all this.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196021 - 12/11/13 11:32 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: rxd]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4980
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Yes, I have used that technique when the pins are very tight, but the rendering is very easy.

EVERY technique will work for a PARTICULAR set of circumstances. I don't belive there is any ONE technique that will work for them ALL. The more techniques you know, the more options you have.


Jeff, not like you t shout. Wats'up?

...


Didn't feel like doing all the keystrokes for italics, that's ALL.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#2196031 - 12/11/13 11:52 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Ivan Jochner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 15
Hi Toni,

Having watched your video i can say only one thing that this technique was one of many others techniques of setting the pin. I personally use it very often.
Long time ago i was reading a German article about Steinway Uprights` tuning techniques. It was advising not to turn the pin too much when setting it back to a stable position but rather lightly tapping "untwisting" the pin down.

All the best

Ivan


Edited by Ivan Jochner (12/11/13 11:57 AM)

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#2196045 - 12/11/13 12:26 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Thank you very much for the video Toni.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2196182 - 12/11/13 04:36 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Hi Toni,

I will use my non-speaking length (NSL) tension analysis on your situation.

(For others who may not know my system:

The Tension Band (TB) is the range of Non-Speaking Length tensions that produce static stability, i.e. stability without a test blow.

After Tuning is the effect on NSL tension due to the unbending and untwisting of the pin after the hammer force on the pin is removed)

Originally Posted By: Toni Goldener

First push the hammer away from you to lower the pitch.

Grand? At 3:00? I am assuming.

This produces non-speaking length (NSL) tension at the bottom of the tension band (TB) with the TB and NSL tension lowering together.

Originally Posted By: Toni Goldener

Than pull on the tuning lever to raise the pitch over target till you hear 1 - 2 beats per second when e.g. tuning a unison.

Now we are in reverse. NSL tension at the top of the TB, both rising together.

Originally Posted By: Toni Goldener

Now he describes one more movement: one should hold the lever with the opened hand and gently jerk the lever away from the piano towards you, till the beat has disappeared.

I can only assume, since we are sharp, that you mean the hammer is pointing at you (6:00?) and you are lifting the hammer and bending the pin to flatten the pitch.

(Edit: I think the procedure described is on an upright with hammer at 12:00, but the analysis works well for both.)

Because we are sharp, the NSL tension must exceed the lower limit of the TB, in order to result in string slippage at the v-bar. At this point, NSL tension is at the bottom of the TB, and both are moving together.

When at pitch, simply removing force on the hammer results in After Tuning (Unbending) that takes the NSL tension up off the bottom of the TB, and hopefully, leaves it near the center of the TB, and still inside the TB when the TB narrows after a hard blow.

One point. If a gentle massaging of the pin does not result in a pitch change, that means the NSL tension dropped, but did not go below the TB. What i do in that case is, try to invoke the slighest foot movement from the pin, in a CCW direction.

This sets the NSL tension slightly lower within the TB, closer to the lower limit, and your gentle massage may be enough to cross over and produce a pitch drop.

Originally Posted By: Toni Goldener

Does anyone of you tune like this? I miss the unbending and setting of the pin. I tried it for curiosity reasons, but the tuning will not hold long. He said, that it is difficult to master, but when mastered, the tuning will hold for a long time.

Thanks for all feedbacks.



I always use some version of this technique, as a slow pull, together with some impact technique on difficult pianos.

Slow pull reduces wrist, arm, shoulder, and neck pain.

When I have had to use too much impact technique, I have trouble with things like horseback rides for my kids or push ups because of the slight pain I feel in my wrist.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2196268 - 12/11/13 08:12 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
When I was in Europe in the early 90's on a visit I had a chance to tour a school where piano technicians were taught the trade. It was partially funded by the state and also a main manufacturer and restoration factory in the area. I happened to see a really neat testing fixture which had been built by one of the older master technicians. It was used to teach pin setting and it very cleverly demonstrated all the varying dynamics involved, it did so in real time while the student tried to set a 2 string unison on it.

The fixture was a solid peice of steel about 2 feet long with pin block material fastened on each end with. There were 4 tuning pins offset and parallel to each other tensioning two strings with a small hammer underneath to strike the string and it used an electric guitar pickup and a speaker to help amplify the sound.

One of the farthest pins was extra long and a bit of it protruded out of the bottom of the pin block. This was the pin which the student adjusted to get a unison. On the bottom of the pin was a fine stiff wire attached which extended out about a 10" and there was an identical wire coming out of the tuning pin just above the pin block parallel and in line with the lower one. A hoop like scale was attached off the end of the fixture which the two wires tips (L shaped and bent towards each other)would register on, both vertically and horizontally. If you simply rotated the pin, the two wires would separate indicating any twist on the pin between the bottom and the top. Because of the 10" distance, the twist is dramatically increased in scale and can easily be seen. On the hoop like scale were horizontal lines which the wire tips lined up with and if the pin was bent or tilted from the neautral original setting, this too was amplified and could be seen on both the scale and also by the increasing or decreasing gap between the wire tips.

I tried to draw a pic of it in paint to give an idea what it looked like. I only show the two pins with the red needle like arms sticking out. Cant really render the hoop scale that extends out but this gives an idea of how it worked.


Whats interesting is that fooling around with it for about 15 minutes taught me more about setting a pin and how to figure out its state better than the 7 years of tuning I had already done. Not that I couldn't decently set a pin, but I do a few thing differently once I seen the actual feedback on this rig. I learned how applying rotational pressure like a motorcycle throttle can totally counteract flagpoling, literally takes it out of the equation. I also learned how different amount of slap/tap or jerk it takes to get it neutral. Its was quite eye opening to see the feedback the device provided.





Edited by Emmery (12/11/13 10:01 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2196319 - 12/11/13 10:16 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Emmery]
pinkfloydhomer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 378
I want one! :-D
_________________________
Piano: Nordiska 120CA upright from 2004.

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#2196398 - 12/12/13 03:05 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: rxd]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 110
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: rxd
Toni,
The description is not making sense to me. It suggests to me pulling above pitch then jerking further above. Perhaps I'm misreading.



Sorry, I was unclear, it describes the tuning of an upright, lever at 12 o'clock. The short version is only because Fross gives further advices like seating relaxed, not hold the lever too much, no tongue chewing...
They are really only three steps. Lower, raise a little over target and then set the pin by jerking the pin till the beats disappear. This last jerking motion is very, very small, just let the greater tension of the NSL flow in the SL, then let the pin spring back and add so more tension in the NSL. But... Is the pin already set like that?

Thanks for sharing all your experiences!! smile
Toni
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

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#2196423 - 12/12/13 05:38 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Toni Goldener
Originally Posted By: rxd
Toni,
The description is not making sense to me. It suggests to me pulling above pitch then jerking further above. Perhaps I'm misreading.



Sorry, I was unclear, it describes the tuning of an upright, lever at 12 o'clock. The short version is only because Fross gives further advices like seating relaxed, not hold the lever too much, no tongue chewing...
They are really only three steps. Lower, raise a little over target and then set the pin by jerking the pin till the beats disappear. This last jerking motion is very, very small, just let the greater tension of the NSL flow in the SL, then let the pin spring back and add so more tension in the NSL. But... Is the pin already set like that?

Thanks for sharing all your experiences!! smile
Toni


Thanks. Toni. Your video said 1000 words. It really is that small an amount when the lever is in line with the string. . The important thing is to be confident the pin is set and so there is no harm in including some rotational motion in the final movement. I find myself splitting the difference and habitually use a 45 degree motion so that I can feel the rotational and slight "give" towards me in one and the same quick motion.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196577 - 12/12/13 02:41 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: rxd]
Toni Goldener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/11
Posts: 110
Loc: Switzerland
Can you describe me, how you check, that you set the pin properly? Testblows? If I test it with the lever ( in this kind of tuning like Forss) the pitch raises again. The pin setting seems to be very fragile.
Regards Toni
_________________________
Toni Goldener
Klavierservice Luzern
(Piano Service Lucerne)
Phone: +41 77 420 55 65

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#2196827 - 12/13/13 02:58 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Toni,

Just type "tuning pin waggle" in the search bar and you will find a wealth of information. People like Unright Tuner/Jeff, Gene Nelson and TunerJeff and a few others have written some excellent stuff with regards to pin/string set and testing of it, the waggle/wiggle.

Here is how I understand the testing of the pin/string unit,

After having lowered your pin/string to it's target pitch and resting place, one can then test whether this is actually the most stable point by a clockwise and anti-clockwise movement of the lever on the pin, while playing the note. Some tuners call this waggle or wiggle of the lever on the pin.

This clockwise and anti-clockwise movement, while playing the note and listening to the pitch, will reveal whether or not the pin/string is set at it's optimum place.

If the pitch does not change, or if it changes the same amount each way, then the pin is where it should be. The final movement is in the sharp direction to have the non-speaking length at a higher tension.


_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2196878 - 12/13/13 06:58 AM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Another thing Toni,

The clockwise and anti-clockwise movement of the lever on the pin, is a gentle pressure. It must be a similar pressure in both directions to be used in assessing the pin/string unit and stability.
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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#2197037 - 12/13/13 01:06 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Nice descriptions, Mark.

I tried to write something myself but I got bogged down trying to keep it understandable so I abandoned it knowin someone would eventually do a better job.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2197070 - 12/13/13 02:02 PM Re: does anyone of you use this tuning hammer technique [Re: Toni Goldener]
Mark Davis Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/10/08
Posts: 665
Thank you rxd.

Regards,
_________________________
Mark Davis
Piano Tuner & Technician

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