Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Thumb-under Breakthrough (?)

I learnt doing thumb unders by myself. They were nice and smooth up to a certain tempo but with anything faster, no matter how much I practiced it was physically impossible to not lag when moving the thumb.
Then I read about some methods in the forums can't really remember the name but it was about forearm and wrist rotations. Anyway the keyword here was using a combination of muscles, so I just gave it some conscious thought: "What motions can I incorporate to get this finger from this position to this note the easiest way", and started working on it.


Here is what I was doing before: Move the thumb to the base of fourth finger to play the note while bending the wrist inward (inward = to left for right hand) and upon playing the note with the thumb, correct the wrist again and move the hand to new position.

What I am doing now: Move the thumb to play the note using a combination of movements: The thumb moves to base of 4th finger (but does not need to move as far as in the first one), wrist/forearm slightly rotates clockwise(right hand) and arm moves to the new position along with the thumb.

It was very slow and clumsy at first but with practice now I have been able to surpass the tempo I was stuck at and it's much smoother and easier. Just wanted to share this for several reasons:
- I am not sure if this new method is THE correct one, it sure is better than my old one but is there any way I can execute the motion even better? Any advice?
- I now notice that I was too concentrated on fingers, every motion on the keyboard (except jumps) was viewed from the perspective of how fingers would be able to perform it, and the hand just tagged along/followed.
- I used to think good technique/bad technique is overrated (I still do for some things) and given enough practice one would be able to do cope with whatever technique, but looks like there actually are some better ways to do some things.

All breakthroughs begin like this.

Forrest

There should be no up/down wrist movement with the thumb under move, but some sideways movement (horizontal) can be helpful, especially if your thumbs are a bit shorter. If you can post a video of what you're doing then it would be much easier to say if you are on the right track or not.

Also, when you play a scale using the thumb-under, you should not hear the thumb-under happening - either by the notes being uneven at that point or by the thumb playing louder or softer than the other notes.

Technique is all about finding the minimal/optimal way of doing something so that you can focus more on being musically expressive. If you have bad technique, that will always hold you back form being able to make the sounds you imagine you can make in a piece.

@Morodiene

There is no up down movement but a slight rotation along the Z axis (the axis of the arm, clockwise for right hand). Am I supposed to keep it fixed? Then I think I am back to method one, jeez.
I am unable to record a video at the moment since I am at work, unfortunately we are doing overtime for some year-end projects so I don't think I can record anything tonight either. I have a video from last week, from my Alfred's Book 2 progress log, it has some 1-4 thumb unders, would this work?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ieodVK2cc
Note that I didn't really switch to this new method back then so it was a mix of both I guess and seemed to work for the piece. Do you see anything that's bad or wrong with it?
(Started feeling really embarrassed about this whole thread while people are discussing Chopin Ballades and stuff )

I don't see anything wrong in this video, but the angle of the camera doesn't really show me much since the RH is the only one crossing under.

What made you think you needed to change it? Was it not feeling comfortable or free?

One thing I noticed when once in a while we can see your RH thumb, it sticks out and that means tension. While there has to be some tension to keep it off the keys when other fingers are playing, this should be minimal and from what little I can see I suspect there's more than what's needed.

No rush about getting another video, but I'd really like to see one where we can see exactly what you're doing. And no need to be embarrassed about this. It's something that even advanced players struggle with, so I'm sure what we are talking about is of value to many lurkers out there.

Thanks Morodiene,

The problem was I was not able to get the thumb unders up to speed, this piece at this tempo was a problem for example. I was only able to play this piece after I modified the way I do thumb unders (But as I said it was still sort of hybrid of old & new when I recorded this one)

The thumb is my bane, I had actually opened a thread about the thumb getting stuck in hitch-hiking gesture some months ago I think. Since then I have been paying attention to tension and it usually does not happen. When there is a hard/fast passage or I am stressed from taking too many tries it starts curling up again.. I think it's time I do something about it but I don't know what to do. "Watch for tension", yup but it's so abstract.

As for a better video, I will try to get one recorded but probably not possible till Sunday. Thanks once again.

I think that's terrific, syndal. For me, having my hand (wrist/arm/all) "float" in such a way that the movement is toward where i need to be, rather than being stationary and trying to twist something into place when it should already be there, or trying to twist something into place when other things are still in the way, also gets me more speed, and less tenseness - and it sounds like you have much more of that feel now. Great problem-solving skills - good for you! I really liked your analysis.

Cathy