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#2195974 - 12/11/13 09:37 AM Lindner upright pianos
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
I chanced upon a very unusual thing the other week: a Lindner upright piano that was in full working order!
Many will be familiar with these little upright pianos made in a purpose-built factory in Shannon, Ireland, owned by the Dutch parent company Rippen. Plastic action parts and metal leaf springs break. I've finally got round to putting a page about them on my website, havving ewncountered two within a week and been able to take some photos. It's at http://www.davidboyce.co.uk/lindner-pianos.php


Edited by David Boyce (12/11/13 09:38 AM)

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#2196190 - 12/11/13 05:05 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
Bojan Babic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 325
Loc: Vojvodina, Serbia
I have met a few of them and in my opinion, they are the worst uprights ever. Plastic keys, soundboard made of some strange material, very, very strange objects.
_________________________
Bojan Babic
piano technician and tuner
Sid, Vojvodina, Serbia
_____________________________
bojanbabic@yahoo.com
www.klaviri.blogspot.com

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#2196232 - 12/11/13 06:37 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
The soundboards of Lindners were spruce. The scale design was quite good and they sound OK. They also have good tuning stability. The problems with them stem from failure of pltastic action parts and leaf springs.

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#2196255 - 12/11/13 07:24 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21286
Loc: Oakland
It is the same thing with Betsy Ross spinets, pretty good pianos done in by the plastics industry.

I tuned a Lindner grand years ago. Clever design, and an inexpensive way to build a moderate quality 6 foot grand. You can take a panel off it, and the body will flip up and one leg fold back so you can roll it through single doors on its stand without any special training. They would have been nice for institutions that might want to have a grand that can go from room to room. The biggest weakness was that seasonal changes can loosen the soundboard so it rattles against the plate, but that is also easy to take care of.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2196339 - 12/11/13 10:53 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1884
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I seem to remember them as having a reverse crowned, solid spruce soundboard and ribs.
I do find them a rather clever overall design. The weak points being the leaf-spring balance and the clip-in flanges.

I wonder if a longitudinal carbon fiber autoclave processed balance spring would wear longer. It would have to be very thin to flex properly. But I suspect it would hold up considerably longer.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2196372 - 12/12/13 01:12 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1492
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: BDB
It is the same thing with Betsy Ross spinets, pretty good pianos done in by the plastics industry.

Something have not seen or heard on the forum DashanDad.Perhaps I missed something. What lives his Betsy Ross now?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2196429 - 12/12/13 06:57 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Big difference; Betsy Ross had readily available replacement parts available from several different external manufacturers at the.time. Nobody but Lindner made the non standard parts that would fit their pianos.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196443 - 12/12/13 07:49 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1492
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Nobody but Lindner made the non standard parts that would fit their pianos.

Good day,rxd
Were Irish people innovators in creating piano or they did not have much wood?
How works plastmass parts in an action of a piano. Is it right?
Regards,yours Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2196457 - 12/12/13 09:02 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Nobody but Lindner made the non standard parts that would fit their pianos.

Good day,rxd
Were Irish people innovators in creating piano or they did not have much wood?
How works plastmass parts in an action of a piano. Is it right?
Regards,yours Max


Hi. Max. Lindner parts didn't seem strong enough on the first place but they tell me that the Betsy Ross plastic parts were made with a hardener that just kept on hardening until it became brittle over time.

Price and speed of assembly by a semi skilled workforce were possibly the prime motivators.

Others may know more.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196474 - 12/12/13 09:46 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1492
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Nobody but Lindner made the non standard parts that would fit their pianos.

Good day,rxd
Were Irish people innovators in creating piano or they did not have much wood?
How works plastmass parts in an action of a piano. Is it right?
Regards,yours Max


Price and speed of assembly by a semi skilled workforce were possibly the prime motivators.

Others may know more.

Thanks,rxd, for this useful information both the pianos about . But I think it is not good, if as a result to set of cheaper part quality suffers
Regards,
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2196490 - 12/12/13 10:59 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: rxd]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1632
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Nobody but Lindner made the non standard parts that would fit their pianos.

Good day,rxd
Were Irish people innovators in creating piano or they did not have much wood?
How works plastmass parts in an action of a piano. Is it right?
Regards,yours Max


Hi. Max. Lindner parts didn't seem strong enough on the first place but they tell me that the Betsy Ross plastic parts were made with a hardener that just kept on hardening until it became brittle over time.

Price and speed of assembly by a semi skilled workforce were possibly the prime motivators.

Others may know more.


True. Plastic elbows to be precise. Lester must have recognized the problem and by 1960 had gone back to wood - the year also that the company closed its doors. (I learned piano on a new 1960 BR with wood elbows.)

Schaff carries a replacement "snap on" elbow set that is easy install. Regulating the metal pickup fingers can be very tricky.




Edited by bkw58 (12/12/13 11:01 AM)
Edit Reason: typos
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2196497 - 12/12/13 11:16 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: Maximillyan]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Maximillyan, the pianos were not designed by the Irish, but by the RIppen family, owners of the parent company in Holland. They set up a factory in Ireland because the Irish government at that time were offering financial incentives to attract new employers there.
Shortage of wood was not an issue - the idea was to make the pianos weigh less.

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#2196499 - 12/12/13 11:19 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
I do find them a rather clever overall design. The weak points being the leaf-spring balance and the clip-in flanges.

Exactly, Ed. Those are the parts I always find to have broken.

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#2196508 - 12/12/13 11:29 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21286
Loc: Oakland
Also, molded parts were cheaper to make than carving them out of wood. In some cases, like the Pratt Read elbows in the Betsy Ross (Lester) spinets, the grain of the wood made them prone to breakage. Unfortunately, in time, the plastic proved even more prone than the wood.

It is not the only industry that had problems with early plastics. Many homes were built with early plastic pipes that failed, which was a far greater disaster. Problems have often arisen in products that were not anticipated after some time had passed. Aluminum wiring failed when the techniques that worked with copper was used with it. The steel bolts in the new Bay Bridge failed when they were tightened, so these problems still crop up.

That is why I am skeptical of some of the claims made about new materials for piano parts. They seem good now, but only time will tell.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2196522 - 12/12/13 11:59 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...Many homes were built with early plastic pipes that failed, which was a far greater disaster..."

My home... and every other in my condo village. We learned of the problem when the kitchen ceiling fell down on us.
_________________________
Clef


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#2196523 - 12/12/13 12:07 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: BDB]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1884
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
The big difference in whether a new material is appropriate for something with the expected life as a piano-IS the material new to any application?-OR is it new to pianos?, and has a long track record in other applications.

The AcetyL copolymer I use for duplex string rests in my Fully Tempered Duplex Scale has been around for 40 or more years. The carbon fiber reinforced nylon of the W,N&G actions has been used in many things for over 40years. Epoxy reinforced carbon fiber materials have proven to have a longer lifetime for pressurized aircraft than aluminum. The aircraft industry proved this to the FAA by doing A to B lifecycle testing.

The stainless wound piano strings newly available from Mapes have been used in guitars for decades.

Skepticism should be tempered by knowledge.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2196544 - 12/12/13 12:49 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21286
Loc: Oakland
Yes, well, if you want piano strings that last as long as guitar strings...
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2196655 - 12/12/13 06:10 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: BDB]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1294
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: BDB

That is why I am skeptical of some of the claims made about new materials for piano parts. They seem good now, but only time will tell.


Time has told.

Of course, the first generation plastic was no good. However . . .

We know why it failed. It didn't fail because it was used in pianos -- it failed because the plasticizer evaporated over time. This phenomenon occurs with any application of that plastic formula for any use. That kind of plastic was susceptible to failure in other settings, as well -- most notably kids toys.

Plastics are very much a known quantity nowadays. We don't hear of material failure in any plastics application -- that is, where the failure was due to the material and not to inadequate design. We can be confident of their reliability because the materials have been established in tens of thousands of applications for millions of usage cycles over decades.

There are good-as-new plastic parts in pianos that are 45 years old. (I'm thinking specifically of a Yamaha studio I tuned recently). I'm not aware of a single failure in those, are you?

Ever heard of a failure with any of Kawai's parts?

Even Steinway's debacle with hard teflon bushings was a not a material failure but a failure in corporate culture and management.

Have you ever seen wood parts fail? I have. Why is there not a hue and cry every time a wood part warps, sticks or breaks?

I am unaware of any design/application parameter where wood excels over modern synthetic parts. Can you name one?

My assessment, after 50 years of experience in piano technology is that the latest synthetic components are superior in every parameter and that continuing to use wood components where modern ones are available is simply inferior practice.

Whether anyone agrees with that assessment is up to each individual's evaluation. However, I believe that at this late date to imply that wood is superior or that modern synthetics are inferior is simply not responsible.



_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2196665 - 12/12/13 06:32 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21286
Loc: Oakland
That is fine, you can take your word for it. You are the one making the claims. I am only explaining why the claims are not necessarily reliable. It has nothing to do with whether one material is better than another.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2196715 - 12/12/13 08:52 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1632
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: kpembrook

...
Have you ever seen wood parts fail? I have. Why is there not a hue and cry every time a wood part warps, sticks or breaks?

I am unaware of any design/application parameter where wood excels over modern synthetic parts. Can you name one? ...


One of the best (if not the best) succinct apologias with respect to modern usage of synthetic component parts that I've read. Thank you for this.

My only problem with synthetics may be more about the annoyance of inconvenience than anything. Certain of the wood parts seem more amenable to a glue repair or temporary fix than the synthetics. The latter just didn't seem to hold as well. It is virtually impossible to stock every part for every make and model, and it takes time to order and install.

Perhaps it's a small thing. But such keeps me inclined to favor wood.




Edited by bkw58 (12/12/13 08:54 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2196748 - 12/12/13 10:29 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: BDB]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1884
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
BDB,
Guitar strings are fondled continually by guitarists. Deposits of acids, oils and soils of all kinds occur regularly. Pianist's generally never touch the piano strings. I am sure you are aware of the general resistance of stainless to corrosion compared to other metals.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2196750 - 12/12/13 10:36 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21286
Loc: Oakland
As I said, I am only pointing out claims that are not reliable. Stainless steel may be a great material for winding strings, but its use on guitar strings proves nothing about piano strings.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2196751 - 12/12/13 10:36 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1492
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: David Boyce
Maximillyan, the pianos were not designed by the Irish, but by the RIppen family, owners of the parent company in Holland. They set up a factory in Ireland because the Irish government at that time were offering financial incentives to attract new employers there.
Shortage of wood was not an issue - the idea was to make the pianos weigh less.

Thanks for clarifying,David Boyce. So it's dutch upright piano. Doubt that plastic parts of an action significantly facilitate weight of all piano. A half pound less weight an action against 50?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2196752 - 12/12/13 10:38 PM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21286
Loc: Oakland
No, they were Irish pianos designed in Holland. The plastics were a cost-cutting measure which unfortunately proved unsuccessful.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2196781 - 12/13/13 12:00 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1492
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: BDB
No, they were Irish pianos designed in Holland. The plastics were a cost-cutting measure which unfortunately proved unsuccessful.

It doesn't matter what color the cat, the main thing that she(he) had caught mice
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2196789 - 12/13/13 12:31 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21286
Loc: Oakland
In this case, I think the cat caught feline distemper.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2196807 - 12/13/13 01:46 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1884
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
BDB is FTD, Feline Dis Temper, your new tuning protocol? No wonder all your piano tunings go MEOW! Ha Ha
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2196900 - 12/13/13 08:13 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: David Boyce]
Bojan Babic Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 325
Loc: Vojvodina, Serbia
The last Lindner small upright that I have seen here(a man brought it from Sweden, where he took it from someones garbage) does not have a spruce soundboard, I am sure, because I have had a thorough look. I am not sure what material it was, because it was veneered.
_________________________
Bojan Babic
piano technician and tuner
Sid, Vojvodina, Serbia
_____________________________
bojanbabic@yahoo.com
www.klaviri.blogspot.com

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#2196931 - 12/13/13 09:16 AM Re: Lindner upright pianos [Re: Maximillyan]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 272
Loc: Scotland
Plastic action parts were only one of the measures designed to reduce the size and weight of the Lindner piano. The design was Dutch, the fabrication was all in Ireland.

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