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#2196551 - 12/12/13 01:08 PM Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang"
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 487
Loc: canada
A minor issue with this instrument, which I continue to love after 2 years. F4 and F#4, which are directly to the right of the middle iron strut (I think it's called that) have a slight "twang" or better, tinny component to the sound, which seems to disappear when the hammers are needled close to the crown.

I expect, somehow, that this will be a temporary fix. I've leveled the strings and checked and double checked the various points at which the strings contact metal (the names for these terms my amateur memory has forgotten.

But if the "tinniness" returns, what should I do (short of calling a tech, which in my books is an admission of defeat). Could this be symptomatic of the fact that these notes are next to the strut???

Thanks for any info, your humble and obedient servant, JG.

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#2196576 - 12/12/13 02:41 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant
But if the "tinniness" returns, what should I do (short of calling a tech, which in my books is an admission of defeat).
You are a lawyer. You don't want to call in a piano technician because that would "admit defeat". Instead, you come online and expect piano technicians here to tell you how to "fix it".

Don't you find this a bit strange?

If someone had a legal problem that they could not solve, and they went onto the internet asking you how they can solve their problem, because they don't want to "admit defeat" by hiring a lawyer, do you think that would be any different?
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2196621 - 12/12/13 04:28 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 683
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant

Thanks for any info, your humble and obedient servant, JG.


John, since I don't know you from Adam... are you properly qualified to be doing the things you've done? I would suspect by lack of using the proper terminology the answer may be no. I would hope this isn't a new instrument as... if you aren't qualified, you're most likely voiding your warranty.

A humble and obedient servant will know when they are over their head... and call a good technician. And while they are at it have the tech put a nice pre-holiday tune on it.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2196628 - 12/12/13 04:43 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1721
Loc: London, England

You don't mention whether or not there has been any attempt to tune, or check the tuning of these notes.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2196683 - 12/12/13 07:14 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 487
Loc: canada
"Lawyer," as in RETIRED lawyer.

Tuning is perfect... fantastic actually.

Warranty? Irrelevant to me.

(The sort of issues--to the extent that there have been any--that I've had with this piano are way, way too picky to be worth the bother of even contemplating a warranty claim.)

No one--except me--would even notice the sort of issue I'm referring to. I have a tech contact--a terrific guy who is part of the team that looks after the German Steinway(s) at Koerner Hall in Toronto. I will call him, eventually, if I can't sort this out myself.

JG

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#2196692 - 12/12/13 07:28 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
mupianotech Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 34
Loc: Huntington WV
Just remember Councilor,
A lawyer that represents himself has a fool for a client.

Also, an amateur piano mechanic that works on his own piano is an idiot.
_________________________
Paul E. Dempsey, RPT
Piano Technician Senior, Emeritus
Marshall University
Huntington, WV

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#2196697 - 12/12/13 07:44 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: mupianotech]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 487
Loc: canada
Cutting to the chase... I totally respect that this is not a forum for "free" information, and to that extent the analogy to legal advice is apt. But pianos are not people, exactly, and lawyers can and do get sued for giving "free" (and potentially faulty) advice. Not the same with piano-techs, although I grant that in the most litigious land in the world, there are bound to be exceptions to this generalization!
JG

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#2196756 - 12/12/13 10:44 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 450
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Hi JG, (no, not you, Jurgen...)

It's a little hard to say what's up with your piano, we can't hear it from here. Voicing, even less than tuning, is something that's not very well suited to on-line diagnosis.

It sounds as if you've eliminated the offending noise in those two notes - why do you think it's only temporary? In any case, voicing and tuning and regulation are all only temporary, so what's the problem?
_________________________
Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#2196771 - 12/12/13 11:12 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: Zeno Wood]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 487
Loc: canada
I figured it out! The treb break was, in fact, the issue. The frame slants upwards very, very slightly towards the mid-treble break, which puts the agraffes as well slightly off-level. The strings are level each to the other, but all three strings for F4 and F#4 are not exactly perpendicular to the frame. (That's one reason for the level indicator on those little string levels, I infer. Strings can be "level", meaning all lined up with each other, but not "level" to the frame, meaning plumb.) They, too, slant slightly up towards the break. Removing the hammers for F4 and F#4 reveals that the factory tech placeed 3!!! shims on the right side of the hammer shank flange to make the hammer hit the strings exactly perpendicular, as they were on a definite angle. (Bad design or poor frame construction???) But my adjusting and tightening of the flange through off the angle.

I reshimmed both notes to adjust the hammer travel and the odd noise is now completely gone!!

There is a God.

JG


Edited by johnlewisgrant (12/12/13 11:15 PM)

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#2197182 - 12/13/13 05:46 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 683
Loc: Seattle
Originally Posted By: johnlewisgrant
I figured it out! The treb break was, in fact, the issue. The frame slants upwards very, very slightly towards the mid-treble break, which puts the agraffes as well slightly off-level. The strings are level each to the other, but all three strings for F4 and F#4 are not exactly perpendicular to the frame. (That's one reason for the level indicator on those little string levels, I infer. Strings can be "level", meaning all lined up with each other, but not "level" to the frame, meaning plumb.) They, too, slant slightly up towards the break. Removing the hammers for F4 and F#4 reveals that the factory tech placeed 3!!! shims on the right side of the hammer shank flange to make the hammer hit the strings exactly perpendicular, as they were on a definite angle. (Bad design or poor frame construction???) But my adjusting and tightening of the flange through off the angle.

I reshimmed both notes to adjust the hammer travel and the odd noise is now completely gone!!

There is a God.

JG


Oh, somebody quick! Time for a press release!

Anyone wish to bet on the return of the strange noise.. perhaps mid summer?
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2197577 - 12/14/13 03:12 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 487
Loc: canada
". . . . Quiet practitioner of piano technology"

Not that quiet.

JG

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#2197619 - 12/14/13 04:55 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 653
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
johnie, your descriptions of the problem and your response to your "fix" betray much general technical inexperience and naivety. Please be humble and obedient and bring in an experienced technician.


Edited by Chris Leslie (12/14/13 05:07 PM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2197622 - 12/14/13 05:00 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: Chris Leslie]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3339
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
johnie, your descriptions of the problem and your response to you "fix" betray much general technical inexperience and naivety. Please be humble and obedient and bring in an experienced technician.


Quite so. And then, people wonder why supply houses don't sell to the general public!
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2197628 - 12/14/13 05:34 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 487
Loc: canada
Supply houses do their business . hmmm... "online"?: ergo, they sell to anyone with good credit.

"Johnie"? Try "Johnnie," the Scotch. If you're background is Scottish, repent.

"He's not a tech, cause he doesn't use "tech" language". Not worth rebuttting. You want tech lingo? I can do that. Think ideas first, words second.

A tech-only forum, meaning: unless you are a verifiably certified technician, don't come here? I'm happy to oblige and await an official ruling.

BTW I happily spend thousands every year on tech advice.

Not that this is any of your business.

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#2197669 - 12/14/13 07:26 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
Bosendorff Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 283
John,

What really matters here is that "noise is now completely gone!". Ignore the usual naysayers. Even if you have to readjust in six months, so what - in the meantime you can enjoy your piano.

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#2197688 - 12/14/13 08:04 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 804
So. Is this what the forum has turned into - "an old boys club" who, en masse, flame non-members?

Very sad.

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#2197697 - 12/14/13 08:26 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1721
Loc: London, England
As a manufacturers tech. who often had to address something thing done by owners or previous tuners or factory operatives or interfering neighbours before addressing the presenting problem, I would rather deal with a slight hammer misalignment (if there is one) than an over needled hammer.

What John has done is easily reversible, if necessary, and will not cause any unusual wear or failure in the meantime.

(A screwdriver can be purchased almost anywhere).

In the greater scheme of things, I would worry more about the owner maintained cars that we are surrounded by on the roads.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2197764 - 12/14/13 10:45 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: rxd]
johnlewisgrant Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 487
Loc: canada
I have Reblitz and Igrec and about 30 extra hammers for this piano. I've taken a number of hands-on courses on piano maintenance, which courses involved, inter alia, how to seat strings, and how to level, needle, and mate hammers to strings, bending hammers, shaping hammers, etc., etc...

Problem was, none of these things worked to solve the issue, until it dawned on me that while the strings in question were level to each other, they were not e a set precisely horizontal. Not even close.

Now I will purchase a bubble gauge. (Oh, wait, I can't, because the shops don't sell to the general public.)

JG

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#2198807 - 12/16/13 08:23 PM Re: Hailun 212 f-f#4 "twang" [Re: johnlewisgrant]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 683
Loc: Seattle
Quiet, for me could be just as relative as "and now I've completely solved the problem." Good for you. Your mind blowing quantity of humility would suggest you might be just the person to fix a different poster's kawai RX2 issues.
_________________________
AA Music Arts 2001, BM 2005
Pipe Organ Builder
Practitioner of piano technology
Church Music Professional
Curator of instruments - Chancel Arts
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single

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