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#2201809 - 12/23/13 10:29 AM Tempo on the metronome
ranunculus Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 19
I'd like to know the suggested tempo for these pieces:

Beethoven's Pathetique (all the movements)
Rahmaninoff's Prelude in C sharp minor (both the lento and the agitato part)
Brahms' Rhapsody op 79 no 2
Mozart's K.282 Sonata no4 3d movement
Haydn's keynoard concerto in D major (movement 3)

Can someone help me with any or all of these?

Thank you!


Edited by ranunculus (12/24/13 10:14 AM)
_________________________
Currently: Bach's Prelude and Fugue #XVI, Beethoven's Pathetique, Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C sharp minor, Chopin's etude op 25 no 2, Chzerny' etude 41, Brahms' Rhapsody op 79 no 2, Mozart's K.282 Sonata no4 (movement 3), Haydn's keynoard concerto in D major (movement 3)

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#2201813 - 12/23/13 10:40 AM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17940
Loc: Victoria, BC
One can only make suggestions because there is no "exact tempo" for any piece; even composer's metronome markings are (generally considered) guidelines, only. More than that, the tempo of a piece can also change even within that piece or movement of a piece, depending on many factors. To suggest tempi for these works might be more restrictive than helpful.

Rather than suggest tempi, I recommend that you listen to some performances (they are all available on YouTube) to hear what professionals do.

You will immediately hear that even the professional pianists do not all play these works at the same tempo and some of their tempi vary within a given work. Using the Brahms G minor Rhapsody as an example, these are the tempi (MM = quarter note) of some professionals :
- Gould - 92
- Rubinstein - 126
- Katchen - 132
- Lupu 116
- Argerich - 112 (with considerable changes within the work)

A similar range of tempi - sometimes an even greater range - will apply to just about every piece of music. The performer has to choose the tempo that best suits his/her concept of the piece.

You must decide which tempo best responds to your concept of how the piece should be interpreted, but the playing of "experts" can be a guideline to give you an acceptable range of tempi.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2201977 - 12/23/13 05:11 PM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
Brad Hoehne Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/22/11
Posts: 366
Loc: Ohio
Very few works in the classical repertoire have "fixed" tempos. The tempos that are used are subjective interpretations of the meanings of words like "allegro" or "presto." It is part of the art of the pianist to determine what sounds best to them.

Listen to a bunch of recordings- there are many on YouTube for the pieces you list- and determine for yourself the number of beats per minute the performer you enjoy most is using.

I played the Pathetique a few years ago and my tempos were around 70 for the Grave section and around 80 to the half note (insanely hard) for the "Allegro Con Brio" parts of Mov. 1, around 60 per eighth note in Mov 2. and between 92 and 100 the half note for the 3rd mov.





Edited by Brad Hoehne (12/23/13 05:24 PM)
_________________________
1999 Petrof 125-111 (upright)
Casio Privia PX-330

Currently working on:
Rach. Prelude Op 32 #12
Mozart Piano Sonata #17, K570
Villa-Lobos, Bachianas Brasileiras #4
Playing by ear and "filling out" pop tunes

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#2202058 - 12/23/13 10:29 PM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
If you discover the "exact" tempo of any of them, please message me the results!
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2202202 - 12/24/13 06:23 AM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7790
Czerny studied the Beethoven's op. 13 with the composer (as well as many other works). In later years, he provided metronome markings for the sonatas four different times. To me, they are as close as you can get to knowing what metronome markings Beethoven himself might have given.

Here they are, in order of publication:

Grave (eighth note) - 58, 58, 46, 63
Allegro di molto e con brio (half note) - 152, 152, 144, 144
Adagio cantabile (eighth note) - 54, 60, 54, 60
Allegro (half note) - 112, 100, 96, 104

I don't think it is known why he changed them over time. Personally, I think I'd give the first ones the most weight, since they were the freshest after the experience with Beethoven.

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#2202291 - 12/24/13 10:19 AM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
ranunculus Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 19
Thank you, I edited my post since you're all right: "suggested" tempo is preferable since there's no "exact", but the question stays the same.

I've listened to many interpretations on youtube but I can't understand their tempo as in a number. That's what I'm asking for!

About Pathetique's 1st movement (allegro section), I play it around 200 quarter note (I prefer it than half note for some reason). So it is 100 for half note (my best speed). I think 144-152 is too hard smirk

And what about Rachmaninoff's prelude?


Edited by ranunculus (12/24/13 10:19 AM)
_________________________
Currently: Bach's Prelude and Fugue #XVI, Beethoven's Pathetique, Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C sharp minor, Chopin's etude op 25 no 2, Chzerny' etude 41, Brahms' Rhapsody op 79 no 2, Mozart's K.282 Sonata no4 (movement 3), Haydn's keynoard concerto in D major (movement 3)

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#2202326 - 12/24/13 11:20 AM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 296
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted By: ranunculus

I've listened to many interpretations on youtube but I can't understand their tempo as in a number. That's what I'm asking for!


With an interpretation on youtube, you can get an average MM number for a section of a piece by measuring the time it takes to play it, with the youtube time bar or with a stopwatch, in seconds. Multiply the number of measures in the section by the number of beats per measure to get the total number of beats in the section. Then divide the total number of beats by the time in seconds, and multiply the result by 60 to get beats per minute.

For example, Menuet from French Suite #6, section A, with repeat, by Andras Schiff, in this youtube posting,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VtJxq_fzc
runs from 8:59 to 9:27 by the time bar, making 28 seconds. The piece is in 3/4 time, with 16 measures * 2 (for the repeat) * 3 beats/measure = 96 beats total. 96 beats in 28 seconds * 60 seconds per minute gives an MM of 1/4 note = 206.
Summarizing,
MM = Measures * (beats/measure) / Time(sec) * (60 sec/minute)

You can get the measure count from the score. You should make sure the performer is taking all the repeats.

If you have an electronic metronome with tap-in, and you can synchronize to the beats, you can measure it just by setting the number of beats/measure on the metronome and tapping in.
_________________________
Jack

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#2202351 - 12/24/13 12:21 PM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
Arghhh Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 1060
There is a website that has a tap feature - a.bestmetronome.com

Don't click on the big START box, but on the TAP box directly below it. Then while listening to the recording you can tap using the space bar for each beat and it will tell you what tempo you're tapping at.

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#2202706 - 12/25/13 09:42 AM Re: Exact tempo on the metronome [Re: ranunculus]
ranunculus Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/13
Posts: 19
Aha! Thank you so much!

Merry Christmas!

smile
_________________________
Currently: Bach's Prelude and Fugue #XVI, Beethoven's Pathetique, Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C sharp minor, Chopin's etude op 25 no 2, Chzerny' etude 41, Brahms' Rhapsody op 79 no 2, Mozart's K.282 Sonata no4 (movement 3), Haydn's keynoard concerto in D major (movement 3)

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