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#2202962 - 12/25/13 11:49 PM Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory??
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1311
Loc: Michigan
First of all, let me say that I support the current ban on international trade of ivory. It has saved elephant herds that were on the brink of extermination. However . . .

It is now being proposed that there be a total ban on all ivory sales. How that would be implemented would have to emerge as the bureaucratic process was developed. However, it could mean that that nice old Steinway (or old upright) with the ivory keytops could no longer be sold. It could also mean that you couldn't glue on a new ivory head onto an otherwise-good set of ivory keys.

And, banning the internal trade in used ivory would not save a single elephant.

My wife is a violinist and I got the information from one of her suppliers. Check it out and let your voice be heard.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2203022 - 12/26/13 08:34 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Thanks, Keith.

The ban was - and is still - a good policy. The current proposal is yet another throw-baby-out-with-bathwater "solution." The Powers That Be simply need to enforce extant law and leave pre-ban and reclaimed ivory alone. Neither wife nor I can tolerate hydroplaning on molded plastic. And so, I suppose we'd better take our little box of pre-ban, reclaimed ivory - used only for replacing pre-ban, unsalvageable tops, tails, and fronts on our own piano - and take it to the lockbox. Might not hurt to do the same with our ebony sharps. Who knows? These could be next.

There is still plenty of reclaimable ivory key top, tail and front out there. A couple of weeks ago, I had to pass on an old upright at a flea market with a nice set of ivory and ebony. $50 for the whole piano. No longer have the ways and means to handle these Behemoths.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2203075 - 12/26/13 10:53 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Idealism is never a good solution as prohibition only drives the sales underground and therefore impossible to monitor accurately.
Secondly a ban such as this would be virtually unenforceable.

Thirdly to do an end run around the law I could “donate” an ivory wafer head or tail, installed, and then the client could make a tax free “donation” to my business.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2203084 - 12/26/13 11:09 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2434
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
There are two problems that need different approaches to solve.

As for the slippery plastic piano keys, manufacturers need to step up their game and develop synthetics which better mimic the properties of ivory. So far, I beleive only Kawai has done anything to this effect and its still falls somewhat short IMHO.

As for the poaching, society needs to push the "taboo" aspect of utilizing the ivory for such uses as male enhancement, aphrodesiac, fever reduction etc... As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.

Heavier fines and punishment should be dealt out for the poaching business and the Johns who support it. Perhaps scientists could figure out a way to inject a chemical into the tusks which would be harmless to the animal, but create medical issues for anyone who ingests or handles it...that would be a good start.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2203102 - 12/26/13 11:54 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3213
Loc: Virginia, USA
The reasoning behind the ban has changed recently.

It is now asserted that the ivory poaching is a major source of terrorist organization funding. If true, that makes for a much more organized and destructive impact on a limited game population.

So the feeling is apparently that enforcement is not enough, there needs to be an attack on the profitability by reducing demand.

I'm not sure I buy this as a strategy but I can understand how some would, and how difficult it may be to resist.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2203125 - 12/26/13 01:25 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4215
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Banning sales in N. America of pre ban ivory, domesticated ivory, or products made from other types of tusks will do little in the way of preventing elephant poaching.

Follow the money to the source of the demand for poached ivory, which is Asia.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2203231 - 12/26/13 06:02 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: Emmery]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2135
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2203240 - 12/26/13 06:27 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: David Jenson]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused


What about "twang" then?
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#2203244 - 12/26/13 06:32 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: TimR]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: TimR
The reasoning behind the ban has changed recently.

It is now asserted that the ivory poaching is a major source of terrorist organization funding. If true, that makes for a much more organized and destructive impact on a limited game population.

So the feeling is apparently that enforcement is not enough, there needs to be an attack on the profitability by reducing demand.

I'm not sure I buy this as a strategy but I can understand how some would, and how difficult it may be to resist.


Recycled ivory key tops = siding with terrorists

Yeah, I get it...
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2203265 - 12/26/13 07:14 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
The whole issue of pianos with illegal ivory is crazy. I do not know any piano rebuilder that would go out and purchase ivory from an illegal source and install it on a keyboard. For that matter install legal ivory.

Most of us are quite fine installing high quality acrylic tops.

I have 36 pianos here with ivory keys. 30 of them being grands. If the law gets passed in the U.S. Canada will be right behind them. What a pain.

I also have 3 grands heading to the U.S. in the new year with ivory. I can right now get the cities permits for them but fear I will not be able to if this goes through.

Frustrated!!!!
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#2203300 - 12/26/13 08:41 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: Rod Verhnjak]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2135
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Rod Verhnjak
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused


What about "twang" then?


Well ... I've been throwing forks at the wall all evening, and none of 'em make a "twang" sound. Maybe I've got cheap silverware. Maybe it was made in China. wink
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2203339 - 12/26/13 09:51 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
David, plastic forks just don't work. Those are for picnics and then you don't have walls anyway.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2203342 - 12/26/13 10:01 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Well, if the rhyming sound is "ding," then my IQ just dropped another 50 points. But I really think the "piano key" in question is metaphorical.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2203346 - 12/26/13 10:07 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Well, if the rhyming sound is "ding," then my IQ just dropped another 50 points. But I really think the "piano key" in question is metaphorical.


That's the "G Rated" observation. This is, after all, a family forum.


Edited by bkw58 (12/26/13 10:08 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2203347 - 12/26/13 10:08 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: David Jenson]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3213
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Rod Verhnjak
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Emmery
As long as some idiot whose name rhymes with the sound of a fork hitting a wall thinks he can make his "piano key" stiffer with the ingestion of elephant ivory, walrus tusk or seal penis...the illegal market will be there for it and the banns just drive up the price.


I can't think of anything that rhymes with "boink". confused


What about "twang" then?




Well ... I've been throwing forks at the wall all evening, and none of 'em make a "twang" sound. Maybe I've got cheap silverware. Maybe it was made in China. wink


I've thrown China at the wall; it is very satisfying but forks are easier to clean up.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2203368 - 12/26/13 11:04 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1311
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


Thirdly to do an end run around the law I could “donate” an ivory wafer head or tail, installed, and then the client could make a tax free “donation” to my business.


This ploy won't work -- either in Canada or USA. Both countries are signatories to the current CITES ban on cross-border ivory transfer. Doesn't matter if you give or sell it -- transfer of ivory is illegal. Same would be the case within the country . Here in the USA we are looking at it being illegal for Aunt Sophie to pass down her antique ivory brooch to her niece Susie.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2203515 - 12/27/13 10:53 AM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2135
Loc: Maine
All "good" laws have unintended consequences and unforeseen complications. That alone should make us wary of new laws and uneasy with signing treaties.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2203647 - 12/27/13 04:07 PM Re: Wanna go to jail for gluing on a replacement ivory?? [Re: kpembrook]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1510
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Have not seen any elephant huggers lately.
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RPT
PTG Member

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