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Jim,
All questions are good questions - and over time they all add up to good things.
Yes, you've completely captured it about Bach w/targets & structures & text. He had the leeway you mention & melody & text. So the chorales are what come from that. And USUALLY the text doesn't get discussed. But for Bach as composer that was HIS starting point w/the chorales.
We might say anything we do to understand Bach's music or anyone's music really is a kind of forensics. So a few competing ideas and explanations often captures the nuances more than any one idea or explanation. With something like Bach's music it's so rich to begin w/that there's always some larger idea the details add up to. ... Lines create chords. Chords and lines create key and structure. Structure expresses text. And etc!
Don't hesitate to post examples of stuff you're looking at. The way anyone gets skill in this is just to dive in! And Bach's music is SO good because it's all good!
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Hi Mark Thanks for explaining secondary dominants so well. so if you're playing jazz it's nice to know that you can dress up any chord in a key with its secondary dominant.
I tried this today. This is one reason why F# sounds nice in a line over a C maj chord. Thanks also for explaining to me the mystery of the E min as a deceptive cadence. Bach is very clever to keep Phrase 1 open, it invites the listener to ask for more. Hi Jim Thanks for your secondary dominant example.
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Cus and Jim,
You guys are getting it totally.
Among the magics in this is that F# you've mentioned. It's actually even sufficient for it to resolve to G (the note). If it doesn't get to all the notes in a G major triad that's ok!
Try this: play (as 1/8 notes):
c a f d d# f# b a g
In jazz that's a line that fits perfectly well across | D-7 G7 | C maj 7 |
Or play (as triads) d-f-c to d#-f#-c to e-g-c
Or in 4-parts:
d-a-f-c to d#-a-f#-c to e-g-g-c
Cus - yes what you've said about F# over a C maj chord is spot on. The F# might be heard as a dissonance resolving up a 1/2 step to G. It might shoot up to A and then resolve to G. Jazz theory will tell you that's an 'enclosure.'
But. A voice leading perspective says that's just a dissonance - F# - leaping to another dissonance - A - and then resolving down (by step).
But having said all above - Jim & Cus - your examples are concise, correct, and PERFECTLY stated.
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Hi Mark Thanks for your examples of inserting dissonances before a consonance. In particular the dissonances D# F# sounded cool in the 8th note line over the G7 chord.
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Cus, that one never ceases to amaze me! Because the F# is SO blatant. But that's why it work. Because it's resolving up tonG!
Last edited by Mark Polishook; 12/27/13 05:14 AM.
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Hey Mark I found a Sonny Stitt example tonight when I was playing through his Fine and Dandy solo. In m2, the dissonances especially F#, work really well as they're on their way to the G. https://app.box.com/s/lyvk5uewrku4dlmbnr6f
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Hi Cus, Sonny Stitt is probably one of the masters of this stuff. Bud Powell too! Just to describe where this stuff can be useful ... In the key of G: G maj7. Precede it with D7 (that an obvious one) A min7. Precede with E7. W/Roman numerals it would be V7/ii7. B min7. Precede with F# 7. W/Roman numerals it would be V7/iii7 C maj7. Precede with G7. W/Roman numerals it would be V7/IV maj7 D7. Precede with A7. W/Roman numerals it would be V7/V7. E min7. Precede with B7. W/Roman numerals it would be V7/vi7. F# min7b5 ... am going to leave this one alone for right now. But we can come back to it Jim, if you're looking in Bach Chorales or Mozart these kinds of things will be all over the place except mostly w/triads instead of 7ths chords (mostly). Here's a (didactic) example (w/a few extra chromatic alterations).
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Hi Mark Thanks for your cool example. I understand the concept of cycling up a 4th to reach the target chord, but I don't understand the Roman numerals. From your example, C#7 is the chord preceding F# min7 b5. I tried C#7 as a sub for the G maj 7 in ATTYA bridge and it sounded good; often the G maj 7 has sounded too strident.
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Catsrapuntalers, I will not ask you to listen to #5 in my book, An Wasserflussen ..., but I will put here for posterity. https://app.box.com/s/0yhr7a77iql9yaf142r3In case, you decide to listen, ignore the background noise. It is Christmas week after all and everybody's excited.
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knotty!
very nice! i hear voices loud and clear! i mean i hear voices in the chorale! very nicely played! gorgeous!
cus - roman numbers ... i'm not sure if this is what you're asking, but every scale degree can be assigned a roman numeral.
so in c
c I d ii e iii f IV g V a vi b vii
uppercase and lowercase denote major and minor when the roman numerals refer to chords.
V/ii means the 2ndary dominant of ii. so in the key of c V/ii would be an A maj triad
is that what you were asking?
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Hey Knots What a gorgeous chorale you've chosen. You bring out the soprano voice nicely. And once again I can't believe how you've learnt such a long chorale so quickly. Hi Mark
V/ii means the 2ndary dominant of ii. so in the key of c V/ii would be an A maj triad
is that what you were asking?
Yes that's exactly what I was asking thanks. I only relate to words at the moment, I'm afraid it's gonna take me a while to relate to roman numerals presented as slashes. When I see slash chords, I think G maj on D min.
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Cus, I agree with you - the soprano line is really well done and brought out very nicely!
No worries about Roman numerals. What they give you is a way to think FUNCTIONALLY about harmony. So for analysing something to see how and why it works and relates to other chords his is good. It'll be helpful later when we talk about modulation. But for now they can be "parked" and the ticket can stay in a desk somewhere!
"Slash" notation - G / D - only tells you what the specific chord (or sonority) is. But this is perfect for a lead sheet where all you need to know is which chord goes where.
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Hey guys...I'm studying the Bach chorales with my teacher right now and wont see him for a couple more weeks due to the holidays. He's been having me identify the chord changes in these pieces for awhile and I have a question for you guys since I wont see him for awhile. In chorale no 11, second measure, third beat(on the fermata) Bach is using a b major chord. I supposed this makes it a major 7th chord correct? And I would analyze the chords from the fermata back to the 4th beat of the previous measure, where the I7 chord is, in the key of B major, correct? I too wonder about the 6th measure where the fermata is over an f major chord but it seems like the 5th and 6th measures are mostly G major. I'm thinking the best bet would be to analyze the 5th measure in Cmajor up until the first b flat, then analyze in F major?
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Hey Knots What a gorgeous chorale you've chosen. You bring out the soprano voice nicely. And once again I can't believe how you've learnt such a long chorale so quickly.
Thanks Cus for listening. You point out the single most difficult part of this piece which is its length. It was truly the most challenging part. The next is only 4 short phrases long and in F, so it should be a lot easier. Though a few chords are really whacky. I believe that's the proper technical description now.
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In chorale no 11, second measure, third beat(on the fermata) Bach is using a b major chord. B flat major. Unless we're using the German spellings... I supposed this makes it a major 7th chord correct? I don't see any 7th. And I would analyze the chords from the fermata back to the 4th beat of the previous measure, where the I7 chord is, in the key of B major, correct? I can't see why you would. I too wonder about the 6th measure where the fermata is over an f major chord but it seems like the 5th and 6th measures are mostly G major. The first three beats of the 5th measure, out of context, are in G major, and then the rest is F up to the fermata. I'm thinking the best bet would be to analyze the 5th measure in Cmajor up until the first b flat, then analyze in F major? Why not just leave it in C?
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Hi Leans Welcome to Cats ! I agree with Polyphonist that it's Bb maj not B maj. As it's travelling on its way to C maj, the first fermata is a 7th. For classical to end on a 7th seems kinda weird to me ? Although it's quite normal for jazz to approach a target chord from a whole tone below.
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It's not approaching the target chord from a whole tone below; the B flat major is simply a stop on the way to C through typical progressions. The real harmonic event in the passage is the substitution of B natural for B flat in the tenor voice at the beginning of the third bar.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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The real harmonic event in the passage is the substitution of B natural for B flat in the tenor voice at the beginning of the third bar.
Very nice, thanks for pointing that out. To me, that's like treating the leading tone not just as a passing note, but as a strong beat.
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That's not the reason it's a strong event, though. What I'm getting at is the tonal mixture resulting from the resolution of the D major chord to G.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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That's not the reason it's a strong event, though. What I'm getting at is the tonal mixture resulting from the resolution of the D major chord to G. That's a kool explanation Polyphonist. Perhaps it's not a full blown D maj chord, in the sense that it might be a secondary dominant, depending on how one hears it.
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