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Topic Options
#2208229 - 01/04/14 05:11 PM Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Did you receive a PM from me? I sent one, then the site logged me out, so I don't know if really went.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2208241 - 01/04/14 05:28 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

In his profile there is direct email. Would one not have better results contacting him in that way?
I believe he also has a web site that may have direct email there
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2208246 - 01/04/14 05:39 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21294
Loc: Oakland
If you look at your messages in My Stuff, you can tell whether it has been looked at or not.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2208248 - 01/04/14 05:41 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2039
Loc: Maine
Hey! Dan! It's super secret. We can't see the message at all. Even NSA is baffled. wink wink
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2208266 - 01/04/14 06:31 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Edward Snowden currently has the message and is offering it to the highest bidder. The Sandy Eggo Waffler is currently at the top of the stack.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2208277 - 01/04/14 06:50 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1226
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
I neither read nor respond to posts regarding super secret private messages.
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2208377 - 01/04/14 11:06 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Did you receive a PM from me? I sent one, then the site logged me out, so I don't know if really went.



Tenor, I get more e-mail and PM's than I can possibly answer, especially immediately, but I usually do get around to them eventually. To answer your question, however, I just looked and there was no PM from you.

I will take this opportunity to comment, in any case, about the posting of your results and answer more than a few flaming questions that have been presented to me.

I thank you again for accepting the protocol for playing intervals. Your recording was clear (as far as beats could be heard). You apparently made your best effort and I appreciated that.

When anyone decides to take the PTG tuning exam, that person is very strongly encouraged to be what is called "pre-screened" for it. That means that another RPT would listen to your efforts and make a judgment as to whether the prospective examinee would have a likely chance or not to pass the exam. That person, wold very likely play the intervals just as I asked you to play them.

In these latest topics, we have been scrutinizing the relative equality of temperament. I have said that a temperament is either equal or it is not and I stand by that. I also stand by the statement that Owen Jorgensen made shortly before his passing that ultimately, ET is unattainable.

There are certainly other such examples in science. We can come close but never really achieve complete equality of temperament. Nor can the pitch of A-440 really ever be exactly that, at some point.

So, the questions then are, "How good is good enough?" What is the temperament then, if it is not completely equalized? The answer perhaps to the first question is if it is close enough to pass the PTG tolerances. It may depend, however on what kind of technician and market one wishes to serve. A temperament that just barely qualifies may not be good enough for concert, recording or broadcast work but it may be good enough if that is not the kind of work a technician wants to pursue.

The answer to the second question is that virtually every aurally produced temperament by a single individual is likely to be a Quasi (almost) Equal Temperament, at best. That is what a PTG tuning exam committee is faced with for the "master tuning". The committee will never find a temperament where all RBI's and SBI's are perfectly in order. The task is for three people to try to make that arrangement better.

In such a committee hearing, there will always be one person who identifies a flaw that the other two did not notice. When it is pointed out, the other two will agree. Each member of that committee will have his or her own input and the result of the three people will be an improvement in temperament beyond what any one person could ever do.

So, that whole exercise in perfection is beyond what any single person could do and beyond that of what any ETD could do. It will never happen on any piano tuned by anyone at any time, anywhere. So, again, what do we call a temperament that is imperfect and if we know it will be imperfect, are there better imperfections than others?

All the books that we read seem to imply that if we could perfect ET, the best sound would result. I have for 25 years now known that not to be true! There is the element of the key signature that virtually no ET tuning book ever addresses. I will come right out and say it: if anyone ever did come within inhumanly close margins of ET and inhumanly close margins of pure octaves, etc., that piano would only sound rather bland, uninteresting, nothing "wrong" with it, no, but nothing very exhilarating about it either.

The piano is too complex too ever fit into theoretical molds. There will never be a "perfect" piano! It is worth one's while sometimes to try to push the envelope of what the piano can do to try to find a new and fresher sound from it from all aspects of preparation: tuning, regulation and voicing.

Tenor, your recent topic, about "Shouldn't there be a standard?", I found interesting to ponder. "Should not every instrument play every note that it produces conform to the theoretical pitches for ET every time and everywhere?" That is what I read into your question. I already knew that the reality would be far from that! If that condition ever existed, all music would suffer from it!

What inevitably happens with temperament construction is that certain intervals become compromised. They either become compromised in an alignment with key signature or against it. That basically means: Well or Reverse Well.

Your temperament sounded good! Others said so too. It was immediately attacked, however by someone who posted a few "slows down" remarks here and there. I don't disagree with those findings. However, the amount by which those M3's "slowed down" was very slight, indeed!

The numerical figures look "worse" than what is audibly perceived. The irregularity is rather negligible but what I did notice about where that irregularity occurred, it was in alignment with a Well Temperament instead of what I almost always expect to find: Reverse Well!

In other words, I think that what you do is rather superior to the goals you actually have in mind! It may be the inherent musician in you that does it. If you look at my recent attempts at ET, they also have the same characteristics.

The opposite occurs with the technician who is obsessed with the quality of 5ths above all else. Playing an open 5th does not really occur very much in real music. But tuners love to hear pure or nearly pure 5ths when they tune and that is what inevitably leads to Reverse Well.

RXD asked me why I was so interested in the way other people tune and suggested it must be some kind of Freudian complex, whatever that would imply. I ask RXD the same question in reverse: Why would you not care what other technicians do? Do you simply assume that every technician tunes ET, always has, does now and always will?

RXD, if you had been among a local group of technicians in 1985 that had discovered some new properties to temperament that were really exciting and from which we had received a great amount of positive feedback but when you went to try to express your ideas on a piano technicians forum such as this one, the only thing you got back was: It wouldn't work, couldn't work and shouldn't be tried, wouldn't you not then be curious about what other technicians were actually doing?

Furthermore, if you had spent 10 years as an examiner for tuning exams and saw the very same kinds of errors over and over again among those who had failed that exam, wouldn't you be at least a little bit curious as to why so many people made the same kinds of mistakes and failed at the task that meant more to them than anything else?

Wouldn't you also be curious about the finding that 9 out of 10 people who had outright condemned your way of temperament tuning did not actually do what they claimed to do in practice but instead performed a backwards version of what you were doing an merely claimed it to be ET? Wouldn't you be curious about just why that is?

Or would you still always be bragging that you are at the top of the heap, king of the hill, A-#1 and don't have to prove anything to anybody? If you saw the same kinds of errors made on those exams being exhibited on You Tube as "How to tune ET" but were instead examples of the very same trend, repeated over and over again, of a completely backwards way of tempering that all of the tuning books never even mentioned, wouldn't you be inclined to say something about it? Or would that be "Freudian" to do so?

Would you also ask, "Why does no other technician notice this?" Would you, in the absence of no other such reports conclude that the problem does not exist? Would you then still just keep bragging about how great thou art and never try to help anyone improve what he or she does?

If you were an examiner for 22 years and kept encountering people who fail that exam and always made the same mistakes, would you not even try to understand why that may be happening? Would you still just brush it all off and brag to everybody that you don't have to tell anyone anything that may actually help them improve? Would you still just repeatedly claim that you are among the elite who only improves other technicians' tunings that were performed three hours earlier but never say exactly what you do to accomplish that?

Would you never very clearly write out a method that you use to refine a temperament? Is it all only by some esoteric feeling that can never be taught, nor defined in words and will never be possessed by those who are lower than you?

I frankly, do not think so. There are words and methods to describe what piano technicians must do to compete in today's market. Reverse Well needs to be eradicated!

If you, RXD, are among the many who think that Reverse Well does not matter but true Well Temperament is unacceptable, you are just as much a back woods tuner as any other! You may be able to survive in the market you have found but could not survive in the reality of what most other technicians everywhere face each day. Yes, I know that you say you have been through it all but the question is how you dealt with it.

I, for one, am not buying the whole scenario as being a practical model for any real piano technician at all!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2208427 - 01/05/14 01:28 AM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
It would appear my PM did indeed vanish.........or Snowden intercepted it... laugh

Regardless, I'll just say publicly what I originally wrote privately:

Bill, your response to my submission, given your expertise and authority on the subject matter, means an awful lot to me; thank you so much. I truly appreciate the passion you have for our craft, and that you take the time to share your knowledge and offer advice freely to anyone who will listen (and even some who don't wink ).

If you're ever in Sandy Eggo, recreational beverages at a certain dueling piano bar are on me. wink
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2208580 - 01/05/14 11:09 AM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT

Your temperament sounded good! Others said so too. It was immediately attacked, however by someone who posted a few "slows down" remarks here and there. I don't disagree with those findings. However, the amount by which those M3's "slowed down" was very slight, indeed!


Dear Bill,

I really am confused. I do not know why you have attacked me when all I did was provide some asked for feedback.

There was no attack on OT. I told him the temperament would pass the exam and that it was good. I noticed some slowing down intervals. This is my most favourite and easiest technique to improve a temperament. I simply was passing on a powerful technique that I have developed.

Truly you are a confusing individual. You have written that you want to eradicate RT from the earth but when the opportunity comes to improve on another temperament that someone posts, not only do you say how wonderful it is, but you acknowledge the imperfections noted by me, and then say I'm too picky.

Bill, you were my examiner for my CTE exam. You were kind and patient with me. You asked me to sit with you at lunch after I failed the exam, and were generous with your time and words.

What has happened?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2208610 - 01/05/14 12:33 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Mark,

I just read again what you wrote to Tenor. It is obvious that you took a lot of time and made a lot of effort to pick it apart (much the way one would do on a master tuning committee) but nowhere in your post did you say that it was "good" and "would pass the exam". It just looked to me like nothing but criticism.

You are certainly right about everything you have said and that much can't be disputed. When people take a tuning exam, they are laying themselves wide open for their peers to review their work. It is very courageous of anyone to do so. Examiners are strictly forbidden to talk about anyone's exam, so I can't comment about yours.

All I can do is say that Tenor's results were apparently quite good and that does not amount to an "attack" on you to say so. I merely meant to say that the way you worded the whole thing was a little over bearing for results that were apparently in the superior range. I cannot give those results a "score" as such but I do get the sense that they would fall above 90% somewhere, so if you ask me, that is very good!

If this had been Tenor's "pre-screening" attempt, I would have told him that he is ready to take the exam and that he should do quite well on it. Only then, perhaps, would I have talked about how he might have improved an already very good temperament into one that is more highly perfected. But then again, maybe not because what really matters is whether Tenor's work is satisfactory to the performing artists he serves. There were elements about what you saw as needing correction that I would advise not trying to "improve".

There is never going to be anyone, no matter who it is, who will ever put up an aurally constructed temperament that will not have some flaws in it somewhere. What I saw in your criticism was that you simply launched right into what was wrong with the temperament, not what was good about it.

An examiner has to deal with the approximately 50% of first time attempts at exams that fail. So, what we certainly don't do when that happens is start right in with what was wrong about it. Sure, I get that from people like Jeff and RXD but I can take it and more or less expect it. Such comments as my tuning "bore no resemblance to what I had written", for example and exclamation points put after tiny figures, not from the results but concoctions about checks that were not measured directly, just surmised, as another example. "Your temperament has problems..." as direct hits on what would have also scored in the superior range on an exam.

I recall in Catholic elementary school a nun who instead of encouraging the better students on arithmetic problems would take that kind of approach. There would be a sheet with perhaps 25 problems on it. She would sit quietly and mark other students who missed many problems but when she came to the students who normally got superior grades, she would only intimidate us: "William Bremmer! WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!", she would call out as she marked a big read check mark over the 3 out of 25 that I had missed but put a tiny "A-" up in the corner and say nothing about that.

So, if you ask me, that is how your criticism of Tenor's efforts came off to me. If you are a teacher, should you also not expect some kind of criticism of the way you correct your students?

What really impressed me about Tenor's temperament was that he did NOT make the kind of errors that I find in about 9 out of 10 cases. Nobody's temperament is ever going to be perfect, so the question is whether the error in it that there always will be will have either a positive or negative effect on the harmony when actual music is played.

Tenor's results showed that he perhaps has a natural inclination to put some Well Tempered characteristics in his temperament. If you ask me, that actually means his temperaments sound better than if they were perfectly equal (which nobody's ever is). So, in this case, I would, if anything, pointed that out and said there was nothing wrong with that at all, especially considering the fact that the results would have fallen within the superior range.

The tuning exam is not a game played between professionals who judge each other by what scores they got on exams. Those scores are strictly confidential. We all know what we did imperfectly and hopefully, we try throughout the rest of our careers to improve where we fell short of perfection. Nobody has ever achieved 8 scores of 100% on the tuning exam. If I were to take that exam again now, more than 30 years after I had first passed it, I would still not be able to do that. Nobody is going to let me try it either because as I said, it is not a "game".

By the same token, if somebody makes C Major the worst sounding triad of all but makes the remote keys sound sweet as a consequence, I am going to point that out first thing and underscore it by saying, "Yes it does matter, even if the amount of error is rather slight". That is backwards harmony that will make everything played on the piano sound out of tune. ET does enough of that, so Reverse Well only makes that worse while Well Tempered characteristics actually enhance harmonic qualities.

In conclusion, I don't think Tenor needs to adopt a CM3 strategy. He is doing well enough as it is. Only those who consistently make the Reverse Well error or cannot come close enough to exam standards to pass should think about finding an approach that works better than what they already know how to do.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2208624 - 01/05/14 01:01 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Eric Gloo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 1226
Loc: Richfield Springs, New York
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Mark,

I just read again what you wrote to Tenor. It is obvious that you took a lot of time and made a lot of effort to pick it apart (much the way one would do on a master tuning committee) but nowhere in your post did you say that it was "good" and "would pass the exam". It just looked to me like nothing but criticism.



Mark wrote this near the end of his post: "Of course, temperaments this close to ET will pass the RPT exam."
_________________________
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York

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#2208650 - 01/05/14 01:37 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Eric Gloo]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Eric Gloo
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Mark,

I just read again what you wrote to Tenor. It is obvious that you took a lot of time and made a lot of effort to pick it apart (much the way one would do on a master tuning committee) but nowhere in your post did you say that it was "good" and "would pass the exam". It just looked to me like nothing but criticism.



Mark wrote this near the end of his post: "Of course, temperaments this close to ET will pass the RPT exam."


I had to look a third time to find that. Perhaps that comment would have better been placed at the top, not the bottom. Nowhere was it expressed that it was actually a "good" temperament but other posters did say so.

When I look at Mark's post, what I immediately see is "slows down", "slows down", "slows down" right in the middle of a wall of text saying everything that is wrong about it, not what is right.

Just like the nun in elementary school who instead of saying, "William Bremmer, you did very well with a mark of 93% but I can tell you still had a small problem with...", it was "William Bremmer, "WRONG", "WRONG", "WRONG" with an audible giant check marking with a red pen all across the arithmetic problem.

As I imagine we have all been told at some point or another, "It is not what you say but how you say it that counts".
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2208664 - 01/05/14 02:01 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Wow, bill, obsession is the right word after all.

We all understand. We've seen it all before.

We're you sobbing and stamping your foot like a petulant little girl who can't get her own way as you wrote? That's how I picture you.

"you're a....sob..... You're a ...stamp....you're a.....

Reverse Well!!!....

..... That's what you are"...

By the way, you are demonising me in the wrong thread. I haven't contributed to this one. Demonising me in this thread only makes it look as though you just spent Christmas with the family. In which case, you have the sympathy of us all.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2208672 - 01/05/14 02:13 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Mark,

I just read again what you wrote to Tenor. It is obvious that you took a lot of time and made a lot of effort to pick it apart (much the way one would do on a master tuning committee) but nowhere in your post did you say that it was "good" and "would pass the exam". It just looked to me like nothing but criticism.


From my post:

"Of course, temperaments this close to ET will pass the RPT exam."

Bill, please. Why did you do that? Please be more careful. You are in attack mode for no reason.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2208675 - 01/05/14 02:15 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
BTW, I'm glad you guys all like my temperament...

laugh
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2208689 - 01/05/14 02:29 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: rxd]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Wow, bill, obsession is the right word after all.

We all understand. We've seen it all before.

We're you sobbing and stamping your foot like a petulant little girl who can't get her own way as you wrote? That's how I picture you.

"you're a....sob..... You're a ...stamp....you're a.....

Reverse Well!!!....

..... That's what you are"...

By the way, you are demonising me in the wrong thread. I haven't contributed to this one. Demonising me in this thread only makes it look as though you just spent Christmas with the family. In which case, you have the sympathy of us all.


Huh?
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2208695 - 01/05/14 02:32 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Mark,

I just read again what you wrote to Tenor. It is obvious that you took a lot of time and made a lot of effort to pick it apart (much the way one would do on a master tuning committee) but nowhere in your post did you say that it was "good" and "would pass the exam". It just looked to me like nothing but criticism.


From my post:

"Of course, temperaments this close to ET will pass the RPT exam."

Bill, please. Why did you do that? Please be more careful. You are in attack mode for no reason.


Mark, nobody "attacked" anybody.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2208707 - 01/05/14 02:45 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1068
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Mark,

I just read again what you wrote to Tenor. It is obvious that you took a lot of time and made a lot of effort to pick it apart (much the way one would do on a master tuning committee) but nowhere in your post did you say that it was "good" and "would pass the exam". It just looked to me like nothing but criticism.


From my post:

"Of course, temperaments this close to ET will pass the RPT exam."

Bill, please. Why did you do that? Please be more careful. You are in attack mode for no reason.


Mark, nobody "attacked" anybody.


Bill, you attacked me. You called me a liar by saying I did not say something that I said I said and you were wrong. Where is the apology I deserve? You hurt me. I trusted and respected you. I looked up to you. I saw us as peers, and then you just stabbed me in the back. Lashed out at me from nowhere. Criticized my very motives for being on this forum. I just don't think I can continue like this. It's all too much. I need to take a rest from all this.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (01/05/14 02:53 PM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2208889 - 01/05/14 06:42 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Mark,

I just read again what you wrote to Tenor. It is obvious that you took a lot of time and made a lot of effort to pick it apart (much the way one would do on a master tuning committee) but nowhere in your post did you say that it was "good" and "would pass the exam". It just looked to me like nothing but criticism.


From my post:

"Of course, temperaments this close to ET will pass the RPT exam."

Bill, please. Why did you do that? Please be more careful. You are in attack mode for no reason.


Mark, nobody "attacked" anybody.


Bill, you attacked me. You called me a liar by saying I did not say something that I said I said and you were wrong. Where is the apology I deserve? You hurt me. I trusted and respected you. I looked up to you. I saw us as peers, and then you just stabbed me in the back. Lashed out at me from nowhere. Criticized my very motives for being on this forum. I just don't think I can continue like this. It's all too much. I need to take a rest from all this.


Don't take it too seriously, Mark. Bill does this occasionally, you will notice that he lashed out at a few people in that post, me included. Much of it factually wrong. I haven't even posted on this thread.

He was havin a rant and we were just innocent bystanders who were mistaken for other people. Some of it may have been carried over from another thread making it perfectly rational to him but totally irrational to us.

Something made him mad, quite likely not even on the forum or it could have been something years ago. He's never been known to apologise for his random petulant attacks. They used to be worse.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2208919 - 01/05/14 07:31 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
No comment on any of the recent above.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2208924 - 01/05/14 07:42 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 118
Loc: New York, N.Y.
Au revoir et bon voyage!!

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#2209219 - 01/06/14 09:42 AM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
I'll ask once more one of the simple questions that launched a vicious personal attack in order to avoid an answer.

It is simply about tuning by clusters. I have done this for years, we possibly all have added th inside fourth and fifth while tuning octaves, particularly downward octaves.

Over the past 20 years or so, I have stopped doing this because, as I am asked to do more and more tune and attend recording sessions where I have nothing better to do than listen intently, I find that the beat cancelling that takes place in cluster tuning exposes itself when more sparse harmony is beIng played. There is very slight roughness in the individual intervals that constitute the cluster and I find it more useful to check all the constituent intervals separately.

Just that. Not much. Certainly nothing to get all deranged about.

Anybody else found this?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2209355 - 01/06/14 12:41 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 325
Loc: Europe
Yes, that sounds familiar. I use to sit by the engineer and find it somehow more easy to concentrate on how the piano actually sounds when heard through those monitors.

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#2210041 - 01/07/14 08:14 AM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
Oh I think you must be right, RXD, all the rest of you have done that already and found that it didn't work. I am just way behind on that. In fact, at the convention where I presented the idea, the whole group stood simultaneously and shouted, "Been there, done that!" They had a bucket of tar and a basket of feathers waiting for me outside the door.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top
#2210660 - 01/07/14 11:47 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Bill Bremmer RPT
Oh I think you must be right, RXD, all the rest of you have done that already and found that it didn't work. I am just way behind on that. In fact, at the convention where I presented the idea, the whole group stood simultaneously and shouted, "Been there, done that!" They had a bucket of tar and a basket of feathers waiting for me outside the door.


Sorry you were treated so badly bill. Was it hot tar or cold? I don't remember any guild members being that excitable.

Again you avoid the issue but I will concede that clusters are alright for rough tuning.

I have had some sympathetic PM's that partially explain your previous jealous sounding rant at a few of us here. You might be surprised at who monitors these pages but chooses not to post. You might be more carefull who you slag off in your public angry rants.

A prospective employer of a tuner they will work alongside for a few days in steady high class work would look for sober emotional stability in that person first.

Huh?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2210665 - 01/07/14 11:54 PM Re: Super Secret Private Message for Bill Bremmer [Re: OperaTenor]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3186
Loc: Madison, WI USA
I am not looking for more work, RXD.
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

Top

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