Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner - Non Classical 6 against 4 or 3 against 2

That dude can play the heck out of a piano ... thanks for the link.

TromboneAl, I cannot play 3 against 2 slowly, it's very difficult and I have to do one of those sayings (mine isn't hot cuppa tea, but same idea). Anyway, there's a tempo threshold above which I can feel it and play it just fine, but below which I become robot-pianist and it's very mechanical and painful. I don't know why that is, but it's really only that way 3 against 2, other things, even more rhythmically complex things, I am generally able to slow down without losing the feel for it.

Also, Firefinch, as others have said, this doesn't sound like 3 against 2 or 4 against 3, it just sounds syncopated -- there's certainly nothing wrong with that, it sounds lovely. But it's not what I think of when I think of 3 against 2....

Here's Oltremare by Einaudi, what I think of as 3 against 2 starts just after the 3 minute mark. This piece is mostly in 6/4 time (with brief periods of 4/4).



Here's the score for pg 4, I hope you can see it, the RH triplets are the part of the video at 3:03 or so.


TromboneAl, this is a piece (or the section in the score here) that I can't really play slowly, it's weird.

Firefinch, do you hear the difference?

HERE is the score - 6 against 4 or 4 over 6 - who cares?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just wanted to say that your playing sounded syncopated to me, which I think of as different from a 3 against 2 rhythm, and I was thinking that a 6 against 4 rhythm should be the same as 3 against 2, but maybe I'm wrong about that. I posted the score for reference, but the part that's really relevant is the video I posted, did you listen to it at around the 3 minute mark? Do you hear what I mean about it sounding different from what you shared?

Along those same lines, less important to me than your score is how it sounds when you play it. To my ears it sounds syncopad, but maybe I'm missing something? I'm going to go listen again...

Ok, now it 's really going to sound like I'm arguing, and I guess I am, but my intention is not to start a fight, if that distinction matters at all to anyone.

I just re-watched the video you posted, and you're not playing what's in the score that you posted above. You wrote earlier



But that's not what you're playing, you're playing a dotted rhythm, where the LH notes are not of equal value. In order for it to be 3 against 2, or 6 against 4, the notes need to be of equal value.

Now, let me stress that this does not in anyway detract from the piece you're playing or from how you play, I think this is really lovely and you play it well. But it's not what's written on your score. I'm sure I couldn't play what's written on your score without a lot of practice, because 3 against 2 is always hard for me. But I don't know that I'd want to play it that way, I think I like it better the way you play it.

Interesting. I performed this piece with a string quartet (piano quartet). It sounded perfect when we performed it. The score was the same rhythm as this.
If you put these notes into a computer you would here it as I play it. All I do is have more rubato.
I Know that the score is correct.
I would love you to record it from the score. Then I could tell what your on about

Do you have a program that lets you do that? If you do, I'd love to hear how it sounds. I will have to decline your offer to record it myself because it would take me too long to get it playable and at tempo, and if I did, I would want to play it the same way you do!

Also, I could be wrong here, you seem to think I am and I'm open to the possibility myself. So a computer's interpretation, or someone else's interpretation would be great!

- both Firefinch and the Einaudi are 3 (RH) against 2 (LH).

The comparison is made more difficult by:-

* a significant tempo difference (110 vs 135 approx.)

* the '2' reference is 1/4 notes in Firefinch's piece and 1/8 notes in the Einaudi

* one is 6/8 compound time the other is 4/4.

Shirokuro, it's possible you're hearing a 'dotted' LH in Firefinch's playing because he starts off with the RH and that can very easily become the base reference 6 (3), making it more difficult to judge the regularity of the LH's 4 (2). If, instead, you jump to a later point in the playing and try and focus *immediately* on the LH, you should be able to hear he's playing a very even 4 (2).

Thanks dire tonic.

That explains it !!

Firefinch, that might take care of it for you, but I still don't here those LH notes as even! Maybe I hear the Einaudi because I have played it (and I worked with my teacher on it, so I know I'm playing it correctly).

Dire tonic, what you say makes sense, except that even when I listen by jumping in at a later point and focus just on the LH, it still sounds dotted to me. That's why I'd love to hear a robot-version (Firefinch's score played by a computer) to see if that would help me hear it better.

Also, I don't think it's the tempo difference between Einaudi and Firefinch, but it might be the time signature that is tripping me up.

This is going to drive me crazy. Firefinch, I may take your video and score with me to my next piano lesson.

Ok, I had a friend listen and she also assured me that the LH is playing quarters, so I defer to all of the collective wisdom here. I guess this may be one of the reasons I always find 3 against 2 a challenge to play, because it's obviously a challenge for me to even hear it! Also, my friend pointed out that I may be influenced by the stress you're giving and mishearing that as a dotted rhythm.

I tried something I hadn't thought of before, which was to watch the video with the sound off and just focus only on the LH, and by doing that I can see two things, one is that the LH comes in on the beat, but the other is that the notes are held somewhat differently 9i.e. the stressed notes) which I think is what I hear that kept me thinking it sounded dotted. if you're not totally sick of thinking about this take a look and see if you see it the way I do.

So, Firefinch, after listening to this so many times, I really like it. I don't supposed you'd be willing to give me the full score? (I know, that's really cheeky isn't it!)

Hi ShiroKuro and anyone else out there - i've just recorded this short demo. Computer playing using Cubase. You can't play it any more accurately (sounds like a robot however).

He's playing "Here There And Everywhere", not "Dear Prudence"
I guess he's playing a 3/4. His left hand pinky plays the root on the down beats and then his left also hand plays the chords on the upbeats.

Firefinch, thank you so much for taking the time to make and post that!! I just listened to it once right now, and of course you can hear how even the LH quarter notes are clearly. I'm going to listen to it again later and then listen to your recording and see if that changes how it sounds to me.

Respectfully, rintincop, he starts by playing Dear Prudence, then pauses and starts Here, There and Everywhere. Both tunes are on his CD and this was a medley, if you will. You may be right about the 3 against 4. I have trouble deciphering that stuff when I hear it, much less try to play it!

If anyone wants the score give me your email address and I can send you it.

Firefinch, thanks so much!! I'll PM you

Yup, 2 vs 3. Very common pattern in Jazz Waltzes! Dotted Quarters in LH.