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#2210351 - 01/07/14 04:08 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: p.elvis]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3698
Loc: Northern England.
Elvis, they have changed the design somewhat. They no longer break for instance. Not the best action, by far. But adequate for mosrt stuff. Of note, is this. The black keys are much lighter to press than the white ones which is of benefit when playing near the console as you do quite a lot of the time.

Good for the money, methinks.
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"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

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#2210700 - 01/08/14 02:12 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
lolatu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 480
Loc: UK
Small correction required since bolded text is contradictory:

Yamaha DGX-650

Half-pedal: 3 steps pedal (OFF, HALF, ON)

Recommendation: Buy this instead of the Casio PX-350 if you value more the 9 steps half-pedal over the realism of the key action and light weight.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2210705 - 01/08/14 02:31 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: lolatu]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Venezuela
oops. You are right. I fix it.

Thanks
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2214559 - 01/14/14 12:30 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Tzache Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 7
Hi.
Im a newbie who is looking for a good piano to start learning, and im not willing to change it after a year or two if i progress a little. I've decided at Casio PX 350 / Kawai ES 100. Im more inclined toward kawai because of the fulcrum (i have really large hands and i tend to play with my fingers between the black keys) Also kawai seems to have better key action and i found a really good deal (1000$ shipped to my country while PX350 cheapest option was 1300$)

The only thing that im afraid of is the output of the kawai as it doesnt seem to have line out and i dont know how the headphones output will behave for a normal amplifier (Marantz 6003 -> Monitor audio BX2)
(integrated amplifiers need really small voltage otherwise they clip and they give overall bad quality sound)

So the question :
Will i miss any of the PX 350 features (TRI-Sensor, line out etc) if i go with kawai es 100 ?
Will i still be able to use Educational software using those two midi -> USB to my pc ?


Edited by Tzache (01/14/14 12:33 PM)

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#2214568 - 01/14/14 12:56 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Marcos Daniel Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 170
Loc: Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
I haven't played ES100, but I played ES6 and CL35, both of them with the same action. The keys are shorter than ideal...
I think that at a low volume, headphone output works well as line out, and I'm sure that you will be able to use the midi to USB adapter without any problem. I own this one: http://www.esi-audio.com/products/midimate2/ It does not require installation under windows/linux and automatically detects the incoming and outgoing MIDI signals, so you don't have to care about which DIN conector is output or input.

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#2214569 - 01/14/14 12:56 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Lack of a line-out is indeed quite a flaw. It means you can't use external speakers. Personally I wag my finger at Kawai for this. Some people have had good luck using headphone jacks with speakers but normally it's not the preferred option. Were you planning on using external speakers, though? Many people just use headphones and built-in speakers. The built-in speakers are nothing to write home about but they get the basic job done.

The three-level sensor may or may not be an issue. Normally it is not. It's an enhancement, but not one that comes up all the frequently...definitely not in your first few years of playing. If you are an inexperienced player I would say it's not a big concern.

Both pianos should work the same with respect to MIDI, so educational software (with which I have no experience) should work equally well with either (or not all all, with either).

Whether the key action in the ES100 or PX350 is better is not clear. Very much in the eye of the beholder and there are people who will argue both ways.


Edited by gvfarns (01/14/14 12:57 PM)

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#2214593 - 01/14/14 01:34 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Tzache Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 7
Uhmm ... What do you mean keys are shorter than ideal ? Keys are shorter than PX350 ?
I'm planning to use mostly my audio setup as it is an audiophile quality stereo setup so i prefer it over the built in speakers. I played at home a P95 and you couldnt even compare the sound coming from onboard audio with the sound from my stereo setup smile

The key action sadly i can't compare because in my country i have acces only to the PX350, P95 wich i didnt like and the memory of my upright acustic piano.

So ... i dont neccesary need the USB and tri-sensor is not something that i should worry yet.

Then Kawai is still the winner. I've made the order (30 days money back guarantee). If i don't like it i will send it back and take the pricier PX 350.

P.S. Weird thing here in Eu kawai is way cheaper than PX 350.


Edited by Tzache (01/14/14 01:35 PM)

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#2214603 - 01/14/14 01:59 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Tzache]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1389
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tzache
Hi.
. . .
The only thing that im afraid of is the output of the kawai as it doesnt seem to have line out and i dont know how the headphones output will behave for a normal amplifier (Marantz 6003 -> Monitor audio BX2)
(integrated amplifiers need really small voltage otherwise they clip and they give overall bad quality sound) . . .



I have run hi-fi systems from "headphone" outputs on portable electronics -- no trouble at all. Just use a "line-level" input (e.g. "Aux Input") to the Marantz. And keep the volume on the digital piano set fairly low.

. Charles

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#2214713 - 01/14/14 05:06 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Tzache]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Venezuela
USB to MIDI adapter, not an issue. Are cheap and work just fine.

Line-out, none-issue. The ES100 have 2 headphone ports that works exactly as a line out. You can change volume to have the power you want to the amp. You can even enable internal speakers while you have an amp plug in, to use the internal speakers as a monitor.

Keys, the ES100 have further fulcrum than Casio. No doubt about it. Also the keys of the ES100 is considerably less noisy than Casio.

Problem of the Kawai ES100 is pedal latency. First produced units are defective, and not yet sure if that is really fix or how know if you buy a fix unit. For that reason I recommend not buy an ES100 until this issue is clear and everyone can be sure they will not get a defective unit.

More info here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2213541/1.html
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2214725 - 01/14/14 05:23 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Tzache Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 7
Thanks for the heads up. I already raised this issue with the online retailer from wich i bought it, and they assured me that if i will get a defective unit i can send it to manufacturer for replacement.

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#2214776 - 01/14/14 07:18 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Bigsam Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/13/14
Posts: 7

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#2217488 - 01/20/14 05:01 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Tzache]
blackspaven Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/27/13
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: Tzache
Thanks for the heads up. I already raised this issue with the online retailer from wich i bought it, and they assured me that if i will get a defective unit i can send it to manufacturer for replacement.


According to Kawai Europe, as far as they're aware, NO UK units sold have been the ones with this problem.

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#2217531 - 01/20/14 09:00 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Tzache Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/14/14
Posts: 7
Uhmm Ok so the piano finnaly arrived this morning smile
Preety happy with it. The headphones out is acting perfect as a line out, but still It has a problem, the female connectors seem loose. The don't make a sturdy contact and you get a lot of stereo balance problems and cracking noises. Now im looking for a way to contact kawai to see how can i fix this issue
I tryied to see if i can test the casio PX 350 but .. sadly they dont have it on stock so i cant compare, to see wich piano fits me better.

If you have infos regarding contacting the Kawai please let me know. Thanks

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#2221744 - 01/28/14 03:22 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: AZ_Astro]
willf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/02/10
Posts: 95
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: AZ_Astro


Down the road, a "best digital" under $2000 might be of interest as well.



+1.
_________________________
willf

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#2222572 - 01/29/14 01:41 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
briansaddleback Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/14
Posts: 220
Loc: Irvine CA
Had the yamaha p-35 for a few days didnt like how the GHS action played on it. It was extremely difficult to play the black keys solidly when going quicker as the fulcrum was too close to the action.
I tested out the p-105 and although same action it didnt have the same problem. Why would yamaha use different fulcrum distances on two models that use the same action? Is a further fulcrum really justified in having the price higher and only on higher models?
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#2222673 - 01/29/14 04:36 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: briansaddleback]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3698
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By: briansaddleback
Had the yamaha p-35 for a few days didnt like how the GHS action played on it. It was extremely difficult to play the black keys solidly when going quicker as the fulcrum was too close to the action.
I tested out the p-105 and although same action it didnt have the same problem. Why would yamaha use different fulcrum distances on two models that use the same action? Is a further fulcrum really justified in having the price higher and only on higher models?


Sometimes the keys feel different simply because the velocity curve of the piano is different. This difference can be pronounced. But if the GHS keys are different model to model, somebody here will know . . .
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2222691 - 01/29/14 04:57 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: briansaddleback]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Venezuela
Originally Posted By: briansaddleback
Had the yamaha p-35 for a few days didnt like how the GHS action played on it. It was extremely difficult to play the black keys solidly when going quicker as the fulcrum was too close to the action.
I tested out the p-105 and although same action it didnt have the same problem. Why would yamaha use different fulcrum distances on two models that use the same action? Is a further fulcrum really justified in having the price higher and only on higher models?

They refer the GHS as the action, not the key molds and all that. So yes, as far I know P-105 have further fulcrum than P-35.

Cheap models are cheap for a reason. The higher the cost, everything is better. But not only in one thing, but many. So the higher cost from P-35 to P-105 is not only for further fulcrum, but also more polyphony, better sound generator, recorder, etc.

Would be cool to have a cheap great key action with only piano sound. I never use features. I just want to play. Also for those who use a computer to make the piano sound. But apparently this good key actions always comes with a lot of features so cost a lot of money.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2224031 - 02/01/14 07:00 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
compianist1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 121
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: Daniel Richter
[size:17pt]
[b]Using with software

I have to add that a the best "bang for the buck" option is to buy a cheap digital piano, or MIDI controller, with a good key action, and connect it to a computer (a cheap new laptop should be enough) to let a great software produce the piano sound.



Yeah. In theory. In practice is a LOT more complicated than you'd think. I own some excellent piano sampling libraries and I know how to set it all up with a usb keyboard. After years of frustration, I just bought a Roland F20 last week and it blows everything else I used out of the window. The problems with sampling libraries and VST software can be many, here's some (other than the basic problems like latency and setting up a soundcard etc, which is basica stuff) :

1. the keyboard you have, if it's a budget one, even though it might have hammer-action etc, is unlikely to be able to give the full dynamic levels from ppp to fff. Very unlikely, unless you have an excellent stage piano from Roland like the rd700 or similar from other companies. Which will defeat the purpose (cost) for having a sampling library or piano vst software.

2. the sampling library or vst software are very likely to have notes that 'jump out'. From ppp to fff, on a real piano, there's hundreds of gradations. When someone samples a piano, it will take as low as 8 gradations. If one gradation sounds a little brighter or darker, the note will 'stand out'. So for example, if you are playing the F # minor fast passage in the pp section in Mozart's Alla Turca, the RH run might have some notes that 'stick out' even though on a real piano you are able to play it very evenly. This one problem especially has given me tons of headaches. It's a playability problem.

After YEARS of crap problems like that, I just gave up and bought myself a Roland F20 a few days ago. In my experience, it blows every sample library and vst I have tried, out of the window. Not because the sound is better. It sounds great, although a bit behind my sampling libraries ( I have excellent pianos in my Eastwest Goliath software, also a Steinway library from Imperfect Samples, plus I tried Pianoteq too).

But the PLAYABILITY on the Roland blows them all out of the window. If I want to play fff, I can get it as I normally would on a piano. With sampling libraries I never achieved that, and this latter problem, unlike the 'sticking out notes in an even passage) is NOT a fault of the sampling libraries, but of the master keyboards itself. This is explained well in a pdf from SupremePianos.

A good digital piano like the F20 has NONE of these problems, although on the cheap ones like the Casio CDP it's impossible to play fff and really hard to play ff. (I am not bashing it, it's a good cheap piano for a beginner) Funny that even with some of the best sampling libraries, I play 'badly' but on a real piano or on a quality instrument like the F20, I play really well.

I have had the F20 for about 5 days and it made an amazing difference to my practicing life. Not only I have none of the problems I had before, I can turn off the goddamn computer and do some serious practice. I didn't even read anyone's thoughts about the F20 here, for I am fully satisfied with this quality instrument. I don't need an opinion about it as my own experience is more than enough. It sounds really good, it has the dynamic range I wanted for a long time, the keybed feels great to me. It's even enclosed in a real mahogany cabinet, which is unheard of at this price. In short, I think it's awesome.

I pretty much hate computers, even though I can set really well soundcards, sampling libraries, virtual recording studios etc. But I prefer real instruments and paper, as oppose as VST and ipad of whatever you have today.

With a sampling library or Pianoteq, you only have half of what you really need. You still need a keyboard that gives the correct dynamic range. Funnily enough, I have also tried the F20 with Pianoteq, and I still can't get the fff that I can get on the F20 with it's own sound.

For me, the F20 wins hands down. And that's supposedly a 'first piano for your child'. A bit of an understatement. I am a player who played guitar for 15 years and started to practice piano more and more consistently about 3 years ago, I am about grade 6-7 classical and grade 8 jazz, and I have grade 7 in music theory, and the F20 is the best instrument I bought in the last 7 years. I tried the Casio PX350. Good piano too, no doubt, but I preferred the Roland.




Edited by compianist1 (02/01/14 08:57 AM)

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#2224034 - 02/01/14 07:43 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: compianist1]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Venezuela
compianist1, you ever try Pianoteq?

I can't say is perfect, but I think is better than any sample-base-software. And for sure have great dynamics.

Can you supply a recording to The DPBSD Project?
Here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103.html

You download a midi and play it form the digital piano and record the audio in MP3. That would help a lot.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2224054 - 02/01/14 08:48 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
compianist1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 121
Loc: Banned
as I wrote in the post, I have indeed tried Pianoteq. I have done it again last night using the F20, and once again, the fff with the F20 internal sound is very easy to achieve, something I can't do with Pianoteq. Keep in mind that with the F20 pianoteq will still have better dynamics than using, say, a casio CDP with pianoteq. The cheap keyboards just have a lacking dynamic range.

With the F20 and Pianoteq, I can get somewhat better ppp, but getting ff or fff takes too much effort, and overall the F20 on it's own still wins hands down. It just feels more natural to play on. It plays and feels really good right out of the box, and saves time and headaches.

I will have a look at the midi file and probably post by tomorrow.

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#2224074 - 02/01/14 09:23 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
compianist1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 121
Loc: Banned
I agree with you about Pianoteq, though....even though it doesn't sound as 'real' as sampled libraries, as for example my Imperfect Samples library, it doesn't have that frigging annoying 'unevenness' in passage playing. It's really excellent software, the Stage version doesn't cost a lot, and it fits in an incredible 20 mb of space. The best modelling piano software for sure.

I think on the link you provided the fault is called, 'audible velocity layer switch'.

I loathe that one problem. I can live with the sound, within reason. I am not a nitpick and I never use una corda etc, I play mainly music from the classical period and other modern non-classical genres. But that 'audible velocity layer switch' used to drive me crazy. It basically destroys passages where random notes seem to get accents you didn't give. Man I hate that, makes me sound like a noob. I actually have a solid technique (not my words but words of my tutor, who's a really good Japanese concert pianist) , although it will be at least another two years of considerable practice to make me think I am satisfied with my playing. But regardless, the F20 is a breath of fresh air. I really like it and contrary to what I believed, it's worth spending money on a digital piano rather than software.

The resonance and attack on my Imperfect Samples library is really amazing, and in my opinion the most realistic sampled library anywhere, but it doesn't work on classical music, where you have to be precise with the details


Edited by compianist1 (02/01/14 09:27 AM)

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#2225268 - 02/03/14 03:22 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Mohannad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 79
I own a Casio CDP-120. It has repedalling.

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#2225271 - 02/03/14 03:36 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Have you considered renting a real practice piano?
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#2225350 - 02/03/14 07:03 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
monkeybusiness Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 4
anotherscott where are you? i need your help and all of you wonderful people on this forum. i would like to know which of this two yamaha digital pianos has a better piano tone? yamaha np31 or yamaha npv60. please do respond and thank you

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#2225594 - 02/04/14 05:18 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: daviel]
compianist1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/13/13
Posts: 121
Loc: Banned
Originally Posted By: daviel
Have you considered renting a real practice piano?


No, never did. The thought 'oh man, if I only had a real piano' never crossed my mind

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#2225611 - 02/04/14 06:36 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: monkeybusiness]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2380
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: monkeybusiness
anotherscott where are you? i need your help and all of you wonderful people on this forum. i would like to know which of this two yamaha digital pianos has a better piano tone? yamaha np31 or yamaha npv60. please do respond and thank you

I think the Piaggero series use the same tone generators. The V have far more functions for accompaniment, arpeggios, single finger chords and so on, and also options to connect to a PC/iPad. Neither have hammer action keys so are not really for serious piano players, but useful perhaps for getting into keyboards, and their main benefit is they are lightweight, portable and run on batteries. If you are a budding serious piano player on this budget, look at the Casio's, PX150 and similar, maybe even used PX130.

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#2226165 - 02/05/14 06:22 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
oivavoi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 48
Loc: Norway
Hi folks, sorry if this already has been covered in the thread (just read it through quickly), but has anyone here tried out the privia px150 with vintage D or other software pianos? What's the verdict?

I have a Kawai CS10 at home which I adore to the point of madness, but recently I got a new job which will involve a lot of moving for the next two or three years (doing field work for a doctoral thesis). So I'm considering buying something portable and cheap that I can take with me (that will still feel reasonably good to play), in addition to the CS10 that will cover the home base. I'm wondering if PX150+Vintage D might do the trick.
_________________________
Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10

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#2226167 - 02/05/14 06:38 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: oivavoi]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3698
Loc: Northern England.
Somebody on Adult Beginners used one on a Mendelssohn recital. Sounded wonderful. I`ll try and fish it out . . .

Here is one of quite a few . . PX150 and Vintage D comin` up, SIR!!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCT5GfpMryY&list=PLFqE-iKuazj5HCYWkqlncU44MXiYRPYIv&index=12


Edited by peterws (02/05/14 07:55 AM)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2226871 - 02/06/14 10:08 AM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
oivavoi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 48
Loc: Norway
Thanks, Peterws! Sounds good indeed:)
_________________________
Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10

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#2227450 - 02/07/14 01:04 PM Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter]
Blitzn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/04
Posts: 28
Loc: United Kingdom
I've been on a mission to replace my RD-300SX (I sold it a while back and never got round to buying a new unit).

I was on the verge of going for the Kawai ES7 but then I found out about the ES100 an PX-350. I've played them all this week.

In my opinion the Kawai ES100 is much better in terms of action than the Casio PX-350. The PX-350 also has a very noisy action!

The bells and whistles of the Casio wouldn't be enough to sway me as the touch is paramount for me. I plan to get a sound module if I ever play somewhere.

Both speakers were adequate for home use.

Other pianos I tried:
Korg SP280 - Awful keybed (think mashed potatoes and seaweed)
Korg SP250 - Surprised this felt better as it's an earlier model!

I would take the PX-350 over the two Korg models though.
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Kawai ES100

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Sight-reading books or resources for a beginner?
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Typical % markup on price dealer pays for a piano
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calling all users of Ivory II American D
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Cleaning strings
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