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Topic Options
#2211158 - 01/08/14 09:23 PM NUMA Concert
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 53
Hi I am wondering if anyone has any updated information on the Numa Concert keyboard? I am on the cliche'd elusive quest for the ultimate keyboard controller with piano feel and so far the only keybed that feels remotely realistic is this TP40Wood action, though I haven't had first hand experience with absolutely everything else on the market. This new Numa piano promises a lot, but since the initial rush of info there has been very little about this piano. Also reading about the haphazard workings of the StudioLogic company doesn't inspire confidence. If anyone has any recent first hand experience with the Numa Concert, please share. Also if any of you can offer up suggestions that I may have missed in my quest for ultimate (but affordable) acoustic action feel, I would be most appreciative. As with most of you the feel of the action is the most important aspect as I am a classical pianist. Thanks.

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#2211272 - 01/09/14 03:58 AM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2333
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Rappy
...and so far the only keybed that feels remotely realistic is this TP40Wood action, though I haven't had first hand experience with absolutely everything else on the market,....

Says who? Many people on this forum who have lots of first hand experience have chosen the VPC1, although it is subjective and personal IMHO. If you search, top left, there is some discussion on the NUMA.

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#2211289 - 01/09/14 05:14 AM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 795
The Numa's keyboard is built by Fatar. I haven't played this particular action but my experience with other Fatar keyboards (including the one in my Nord Electro) is not overwhelming.

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#2211392 - 01/09/14 10:22 AM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Spanishbuddha is right. There's a strong consensus around here that the premier piano-emulating controller at this time is the Kawai VPC1, not anything from NUMA. That's one reason people here talk about the VPC1 all the time and seldom about the NUMA.

By the way, the NUMA concert is a regular digital piano, not a dedicated controller like the VPC1. Perhaps you were thinking of the NUMA Nero? If your search for a controller includes pianos with built-in sound engines, then there are tons of options from Roland, Yamaha, Kawai, and Casio.

Which models have you tried and not liked?


Edited by gvfarns (01/09/14 10:25 AM)

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#2211489 - 01/09/14 12:59 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 465
I played the Numa Concert at a store.

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#2211557 - 01/09/14 02:55 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: emenelton]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: emenelton
I played the Numa Concert at a store.


That may be the shortest review I've ever read. smile

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#2211598 - 01/09/14 03:39 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: emenelton]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2333
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: emenelton
I played the Numa Concert at a store.

Are you the OP, in bad disguise?

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#2211672 - 01/09/14 05:17 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 465
Rappy seemed to want to know if anyone had experience with this. Is that correct Rappy? Why yes Emenelton thank-you for asking. smile

I owned a VMK 61(?) I appreciate the heavy Fatar action. The Numa's action was like a combination of a heavy key piano with light resistance. I know that sounds opposite. Fatar's action always seems like your connected to a lot of structure but the keys on the Concert moved easily.
The sound was very evenly voiced, very modern Steinway, not like the American D's but more like a clean Steinway voiced for clarity.

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#2211894 - 01/10/14 12:21 AM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: emenelton]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 53
Haha, no it's not me in disguise. I have been out all day trying some more keyboards.

Yes I have tried the VPC-1 action and also the next level up action in the CA95 (GF). I am unfortunately not impressed at all with the latest Kawai keybeds. They feel really slow and artificially soft on the landing. I actually had the keyboards setup next to a row of acoustic grands and so I was able to play back to back with a variety of pianos from Steinways to a Bosendorfer and also a regular Yamaha and Kawai upright to boot. When juxtaposed as such, it was even more clear how poor an imitation they were. With such a docile mechanism, I found there was very little subtlety communicating through the keys - it felt like playing piano with gaffers gloves. Also I found that there was almost too much uniformity to the keys, if that can really be a complaint (and it is) - it just feels wrong and going between the CA95 and the different acoustics was like crossing the uncanny valley.

It was good that I got the chance to play them though, since by reading about, in particular, the VPC beforehand I had been given the impression it was the second coming -like the black obelisk from 2001 - signifying a giant evolutionary leap forward. Going into my test, I was almost certain it would be just what I was looking for.

It is an interesting phenomenon on the internet how there are sometimes products which arise whose reputation precedes them and their popularity begins to snowball based on the confidence people place in the direction the market is heading. Perhaps it is the Emperor's New Clothes allegory. I am not claiming a conspiracy, but dare I mention it; nearly all of the review threads of the VPC I have read across the internet will sooner rather than later feature an abundance of Kawai James in one of his many forms. It is wonderful customer relations from Kawai, don't get me wrong, and I applaud his enthusiasm and the notion of a company conversing with its public. But I do feel like he unconsciously manages the conversations with his unhidden biases and total omnipresence across all user forums - pianoworld, pianoteq, gearslutz, soundonsound etc.

Maybe it is more to do with the hopes that we all radiate, wishing that this or that new product is the holy grail, but these hopes make us blind (at least for a few months). The last time it was the Roland RD700NX. But I should say I much prefer the Roland action. It has more character, but is also a little slow.

Or maybe people really do feel the pianism of these keyboards - in which case I am simply in the minority. I just have to question the sensitivity of others though when they claim it to be as close as you can get to an acoustic action simulation - an opinion that has proliferated for now.

I have an easier time reviewing more modestly appraised keyboards, such as those in the triple-sensored Casio series. These are not promising to be something they are not, so their strengths are given a fairer chance - but unfortunately the surface texture of the Casio keyboards is just rubbish - so they have been eliminated from my quest.

The reason I ask about the NUMA Concert rather than the Nero is that I have heard terrible things concerning the Nero build quality and keep assuming each new StudioLogic product launch is from a place of supposed greater financial strength, so must surely be less likely to fail. In addition, while I am looking for predominantly a controller, I would definitely enjoy some inbuilt sounds now and again, particularly if they are quite good like these onboard sounds seem to be.

So, if it is true that I am just in the minority with my tastes for sensitivity in a pianistic action, I would assume that there must be some less popular models or, perhaps, models popular with a minority, that I haven't yet considered. Anyway, do you guys or gals have any further suggestions for someone who still overwhelmingly prefers the acoustic feel (but doesn't want to break the bank)?

P.S. Thanks for your mini review emenelton. I do understand what you mean with your contradiction of a heavy key with light resistance. I think this is one of the reasons I like that action.

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#2211916 - 01/10/14 01:03 AM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9014
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Rappy, if you find the Fatar TP40Wood action to be the most realistic available, and are seeking a board that also features built-in sounds, I believe the Numa Concert is probably your best option.

The challenge is finding a board to play-test. However, given your strong feelings, it may be worth purchasing the unit 'sight unseen', given a reassurance from the retailer that the instrument may be returned if necessary.

Best of luck!

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2212169 - 01/10/14 01:11 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Rappy
Maybe it is more to do with the hopes that we all radiate, wishing that this or that new product is the holy grail, but these hopes make us blind (at least for a few months). The last time it was the Roland RD700NX. But I should say I much prefer the Roland action. It has more character, but is also a little slow.


Based on your stated preferences I was going to recommend Roland next. However, if you feel that the Roland PHAIII action is too slow, you may not be able to find anything you like. It's the fastest of the common actions...some have complained that it's faster than acoustics and too easy to play.

The NUMA isn't one of the common actions, so most people here have never played it. It sounds like you find it even faster.


Quote:
Or maybe people really do feel the pianism of these keyboards - in which case I am simply in the minority. I just have to question the sensitivity of others though when they claim it to be as close as you can get to an acoustic action simulation - an opinion that has proliferated for now.

I have an easier time reviewing more modestly appraised keyboards, such as those in the triple-sensored Casio series. These are not promising to be something they are not, so their strengths are given a fairer chance - but unfortunately the surface texture of the Casio keyboards is just rubbish - so they have been eliminated from my quest.


No digital feels just like an acoustic, but they can play as well as some acoustics and they can feel good. Preference in action type is subjective and there isn't a ton of agreement. Most people complain that digital actions bottom out too hard and in a jarring fashion, for example, but clearly you are not in that camp. And that's perfectly all right.

Quote:
So, if it is true that I am just in the minority with my tastes for sensitivity in a pianistic action, I would assume that there must be some less popular models or, perhaps, models popular with a minority, that I haven't yet considered. Anyway, do you guys or gals have any further suggestions for someone who still overwhelmingly prefers the acoustic feel (but doesn't want to break the bank)?


In digital pianos there are four big players:

1. Yamaha
2. Roland
3. Kawai
4. Casio

Then there are the niche players, like NUMA. It sounds like you have tried a high-end Roland and now high end Kawai's. You might try Kawai's plastic action, if you get a chance (ES7 or similar). Make sure you have tried Yamaha's GH action family. And Casio (PX150, PX350, etc). If you like Casio that's the best case scenario because it is very affordable for what you get. edit: looks like you already excluded Casio.

After you have tried all four families, if you still prefer the NUMA, I think you should go with them. They aren't real common here, so they could have gotten better and it would be a long time before that would be reflected in the consensus view of the forum--you may be able to begin to change their reputation if that's the case.

BTW when asking for suggestions it would be good to list all the models you have tried so people don't keep suggesting them. Saying what you didn't like about them will also help us know what you are looking for.


Edited by gvfarns (01/10/14 01:15 PM)

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#2212184 - 01/10/14 01:40 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 465
I just played the Numa Concert again and wanted to offer my impression.

First the action seems simpler and more straight forward than my previous post would suggest.
It doesn't remind me of previous Fatars I've owned. It seems like a Bosendorfer at the conservatory, nice action that plays simple and easy.
The sound goes from warm at mp-mf, to a more aggressive attack at forte, kind of sudden. Very compact size wise, might not be any deeper than a PX5S.
The instrument has great tuning. They had it next to a PX5S. The difference in the sound of the AP was dramatic. My impression is that it would cut through a mix well.

Not sure about the other sounds.

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#2212372 - 01/10/14 06:20 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: gvfarns]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 53
Thanks for the responses.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Based on your stated preferences I was going to recommend Roland next. However, if you feel that the Roland PHAIII action is too slow, you may not be able to find anything you like. It's the fastest of the common actions...some have complained that it's faster than acoustics and too easy to play.


I am not closed to the Roland PHAIII - I would say it is better than the Kawai RM3. I played it again yesterday and found it quite playable, but there was some superfluous friction in the initial motion. But there is always a compromise.

Quote:
Then there are the niche players, like NUMA.


Who are the other niche players?
Are there any legendary keybeds that I can maybe track down that might be my cup of tea?

Quote:
It sounds like you have tried a high-end Roland and now high end Kawai's. You might try Kawai's plastic action, if you get a chance (ES7 or similar). Make sure you have tried Yamaha's GH action family. And Casio (PX150, PX350, etc). If you like Casio that's the best case scenario because it is very affordable for what you get. edit: looks like you already excluded Casio.


I should give the Casio's another chance. It wasn't just the plasticy key surface, but the shortness of keys. They were like little baby key stumps. I will now try the Kawai plastics and the Yamaha GH. (I have tried the NW-GH - it was good but not amazing.)

Quote:
After you have tried all four families, if you still prefer the NUMA, I think you should go with them.


It's looking that way. But I am just a little concerned; on youtube videos for them I often hear screams of frustration from disgruntled Numa players about this or that manufacturing defect. It could be the normal amount of disgruntlement but due to the lesser popularity of these keyboards, it stands out more (?).

What was the Acuna 88 like to play? I have only really focussed on the TP40Wood and TP400 actions by Fatar. Is the TP100L any good in the ways I would maybe prefer?

Thanks for your assistance.

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#2212375 - 01/10/14 06:23 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: emenelton]
Rappy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/14
Posts: 53
Originally Posted By: emenelton
I just played the Numa Concert again and wanted to offer my impression.

First the action seems simpler and more straight forward than my previous post would suggest.
It doesn't remind me of previous Fatars I've owned.


Which other Fatars have you owned?

Quote:
It seems like a Bosendorfer at the conservatory, nice action that plays simple and easy.


Sounds nice.

Quote:
The sound goes from warm at mp-mf, to a more aggressive attack at forte, kind of sudden.


Yes this is in line with complaint I read about the midtone samples. Something about the length of samples being too short for that particular set? Is it noticeably bad or were you looking for problems?

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#2212609 - 01/11/14 01:55 AM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
robipiano Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/05/10
Posts: 15
I played it yesterday in a store.
Very good sample for the piano 1 (steinway). I usually play ivory2 and the timbre is similar.With goood dinamics.
Rhodes is good too.
I'm waiting for this DP because I was curious to try the keybed and I find it good but with something strange. It seems to me that the black keys are too high when pressed and may be a little tight than usual.
And fast repetition doest work well (it should have three sensor!)

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#2212652 - 01/11/14 06:02 AM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
Thomas B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 38
Quote:
Who are the other niche players?
Are there any legendary keybeds that I can maybe track down that might be my cup of tea?


Definitely niche:

http://www.flkeys.at/Produkte.html

The Lachnit uses a TP40 Wood with custom sensor and electronics. Interesting product, but it will be difficult to test play unless you happen to visit Vienna or the upcoming NAMM.

Thomas

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#2212868 - 01/11/14 02:11 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Rappy
Are there any legendary keybeds that I can maybe track down that might be my cup of tea?


Legendary keybeds..how about the Alpha Piano? Hope you have a lot of money. smile

Actually most keybeds that people think are the best are already in your list of ones you didn't really care for. Unfortunately digital piano keybeds have only come so far.


Edited by gvfarns (01/11/14 02:14 PM)

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#2212891 - 01/11/14 02:39 PM Re: NUMA Concert [Re: Rappy]
emenelton Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 465
Originally Posted By: Rappy
Originally Posted By: emenelton
I just played the Numa Concert again and wanted to offer my impression.

First the action seems simpler and more straight forward than my previous post would suggest.
It doesn't remind me of previous Fatars I've owned.


Which other Fatars have you owned?

Quote:
It seems like a Bosendorfer at the conservatory, nice action that plays simple and easy.


Sounds nice.

Quote:
The sound goes from warm at mp-mf, to a more aggressive attack at forte, kind of sudden.


Yes this is in line with complaint I read about the midtone samples. Something about the length of samples being too short for that particular set? Is it noticeably bad or were you looking for problems?


Which other Fatars have you owned?

VMK 61

Is it noticeably bad or were you looking for problems?

I was looking for characteristics that I could report on.

There is also a F to F octave below middle C that no matter how hard you hit it, the attack never shows the bite.

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