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I like the earlier ones because I know with a fresh soundboard they will be more responsive to player input than almost anything out there. I have never seen a 100 year old soundboard that still produced acceptable tone in the fifth octave. Never. Ed Foote said this about Steinways but I have a 109 year old Ibach. I'd rather not replace the soundboard but what are the tell tale signs from the fifth and other octaves that I should?
Ian Russell Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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I think this is one of these difficult questions because there are so many factors involved. Why don't you speak to Paul Leverett who sometimes replaces boards, and sometimes restores original boards depending on the condition of the board.
I have noticed that there is a loss of projection in certain areas of old pianos, and that loss of projection even comes through after re-stringing on certain instruments, so I would guess these are the ones that would benefit from a new board. To my ears, loss of crown really screws up the treble - the melody part of the piano if you like. My guess is that rebuilders who know what they are doing have found the correlation between what the soundboard looks like and how it sounds/will sound - so if they can tell there is no crown by looking at it, they will know that the sound will not be good.
Paul was telling me about a 1939 Steinway M that had a perfect soundboard, but it needed so much else done to it that installing a new board would make sense at this point rather than to retain the original board which is 75 years old. From what I can gather, the price of putting in a new soundboard does not translate into a massive profit for the rebuilder anyway, so it's probably not the rebuilder trying to make money.
As far as your Ibach is concerned, I haven't seen it, nor do I know who you've had it inspected by. What I do know is that every time I've played a rebuilt piano with a new soundboard, I have never felt let down by the piano, never felt it was out of character for the instrument and never felt the piano lacked anything. In fact I've always felt that these pianos have been superior to many, many others.
I can think of only one or two pianos that I've played out of many that thave been restored without a new soundboard, and I've always had the impression that the pianos are almost wheezing, trying to get the tone out. Even with new strings, hammers, actions, and I've seen some pianos from shops that have had the original board reconstructed, and to my ear and hands, it feels and sounds like it just hasn't really worked.
Younger pianos can be rebuilt with the original board, but I think older pianos almost always need a new board, otherwise they just sound dead.
I think there are so many factors in a soundboard - the downbearing of the strings, the crown, the cellular structure of the wood, the stiffness, everything really, so many things that I don't understand, that it's so difficult to say exactly what it is that means a board is past its sell-by date.
YAMAHA Artist
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I would only replace a soundboard as part of a major rebuilding, something that I would do only when the piano sounds truly terrible, cannot be tuned or otherwise made to sound good again, and a reliable technician says that the soundboard needs replacement.
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Greetings, My remarks were directed at the compression crowned boards used in New York Steinways. By their nature, they are expendable, as they deteriorate with age, ore so than others. I have repaired and restrung original boards in Chickerings, Baldwins, Knabe, etc. and found that they still had an even response, so my observation is that the soundboard's crown seems more perishable in a Steinway.
My impression of the Steinway boards is that they are good for about 60 years or so before the fourth and fifth octave begins to sound weaker and weaker. This is usually accompanied by a shorter sustain and a less balanced spectra in the tone, regardless of hammer condition. Many rebuilders, touting something about original boards being better are usually trying to sell a rebuilt piano with a near dead board in it. You can hear this if you know how to listen for it. If the fifth octave is weak, it is common to 'voice' it up so that it appears to be as powerful as the bass, but to do that requires greatly compromising the tonal palette and you are left with a brittle sounding piano under the right hand, with a disproportionately powerful bass in relation to it. These pianos don't sing because there is little sustain in them, and they don't sound as big as they look. regards,
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I think that replacing a soundboard depends on the individual soundboard. I am, of course, not an expert in any way, but I would never replace a soundboard simply because of its age. There would have to be something profound the matter with it first. When my uncle had his 1901 Steinway rebuilt in 2001, he did not have the soundboard replaced (based on a recommendation that the original one was fine), a decision that has proved to be the right one as he entered his second career as a concert pianist. A lifelong musician with amazing musical sense, he plays the piano four to five hours a day, and continues, 13 years later, to be delighted with how it sounds.
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When moisture damage has caused the ribs to separate from the board. When something has fallen through the board and punched a big hole in it. When the rebuilder wants a big payday. The third case is by far the most common.
There are probably a few rebuilders who can redesign a soundboard for slightly better results, but they are few and far between. The improvement is likely to be far less by the improvement that comes from replacing the strings and hammers. It is hard to judge, since there is usually no record of the way the piano sounded originally.
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I think that's what we're saying - replace it when it has failed.
We need to get out of the idea that there is a mystique surrounding the soundboards, they're a functioning part of the piano like everything else, and if replacing them can improve the instrument then go ahead. In the hands of a good rebuilder, it will work out well. In the hands of a bad rebuilder, well, it wont! Better to leave the piano original than to have a botch job....
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The most important skill in determining soundboard condition, is the skill of the technician to be able to determine ALL of the faults a piano contains. This means the tone-regulation skills must be there.
As regards the 5th octave weakness; hammer mass becomes very critical here, strike point also, capo bar profile, and bridge cap condition. And the knowledge to properly evaluate these things is not widespread.
In other words the knowledge of what is causing a poor tone must be fully there to sort out the variables. I have had the experience where a technician has pronounced a new piano soundboard DOA, and after I correct all of the real problems the tone comes to life.
My experience regarding older (circa 100YO), Chickering's differs from Mr. Foote's. They go flat and crack very easily. I don't think they were dried as much as Steinway or Masons. Just a guess here. Chickerings also seem to have no crown cut into the bridge root.
Here on the west coast there are 100YO soundboard that are still excellent. The bridge caps and pin-blocks not as much. I often replace bridge caps on 30-40YO pianos because it improves the sound so much when you do it properly. It does pay off to be crazy accurate about string spacing, bridge-pin stagger and back-row setback, establishing proper note 88 speaking length and subsequent treble speaking length incremental changes, and proper bridge pin sizing.
A case can be made that crowning a board with rib crown and very little compression crown will leave it MORE able to be split open in dry conditions because the panel has less potential overall movement in the shrinking mode.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
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A piano player can't tell for certain if a board needs to be replaced, but there are some signs that might indicate that there is further need for inspection.
Dull (dead) sound Diminished sustain Volume decrease
The first identifiers come through your ears. When you keep thinking that "my piano just doesn't sound the same," it is time to call a skilled technician.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Thank you all for your clarification and reassurance.
If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it sounds broke, first make sure it's not something about the strings or the hammers. Dull (dead) sound, diminished sustain, volume decrease, and unacceptable tone usually are, it seems.
Someone said the tone was woody and that was a sure sign the soundboard was over the hill. Some cleaning, brushing and compressed air fixed that. The tone in the fifth octave may be a bit shrill now but is it unacceptable? Clean up the unisons?
Ed M is right, there are cracks at a few of the bridge pins in the tenor. I think fixing them is a question for the technical forum.
Ian Russell Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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One thing you can do is crawl under the piano with a good light and a couple yards of light string. Find the longest run of soundboard bottom you can reach between the ribs, and stretch the string tight up against it. With the string pulled straight, you can see the amount of crown the board has, typically about 1/8" to 1/4" in the middle. That's an objective test that isolates the condition of the board.
Any listening tests are subjective, and include problems that originate from any part of the instrument, such as hammer voicing.
The "always replace the board" and "never replace the board" camps, I think, are both wrong. It depends on the board. But it's a shame to replace a board with one that's not as good as what you had before, so choose your rebuilder with care.
-- J.S. Knabe Grand # 10927 Yamaha CP33 Kawai FS690
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One thing you can do is crawl under the piano with a good light and a couple yards of light string. Find the longest run of soundboard bottom you can reach between the ribs, and stretch the string tight up against it. With the string pulled straight, you can see the amount of crown the board has, typically about 1/8" to 1/4" in the middle. That's an objective test that isolates the condition of the board.
No, that is not a test of the condition of the board. It is only a test of the shape of the board.
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The string-stretched-across-the-underside-of-the-board-between-the-two-longest-ribs-test, coupled to measuring the angle of string deflection over the bridge test, does provide objective evidence of crown. That combined with evidence of cracks, rib separation or bad board to bridge glue joint is the relevant information for soundboard condition.
It does not provide a true measure of down-bearing since that can only be determined when no strings are present.
The shape IS the condition of the board.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: toneman1@me.com
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It does not provide a true measure of down-bearing since that can only be determined when no strings are present. Sorry, Ed, you confused me a little here... I'm ready for a lesson on the true meaning of "down-bearing". I thought down-bearing had to be measured while the strings were installed... using a down-bearing gauge? How do you measure down-bearing without the strings installed? Thanks, Rick
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The string-stretched-across-the-underside-of-the-board-between-the-two-longest-ribs-test, coupled to measuring the angle of string deflection over the bridge test, does provide objective evidence of crown. It could be objective evidence the existence of crown. It is not evidence of lack of crown.
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Rickster, The only way to separate the compressibility of the crown of a particular soundboard from string deflection angles is to compare the unloaded board with the deflection of a test thread over the bridge surface between the string terminations and the hitching rest. Some soundboards are so flexible that you could measure almost no string bearing and almost no crown between the ribs when strung, but after string removal you see it does have crown and bearing.
So BDB's last post is correct.
You also have to factor in present relative humidity and the elapsed time since there has been a significant humidity change. This is because wood takes on moisture much quicker than it gives it back. By something like a factor of five.
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I thought down-bearing had to be measured while the strings were installed... using a down-bearing gauge? How do you measure down-bearing without the strings installed? With a fine rope, from tuning pin through agraffe/capo touching subtly the bridge... ending to hitch pin and measuring the height there.
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