 |
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
|
|
48 members (Dalem01, Cheeeeee, danno858, CharlesXX, Aleks_MG, accordeur, brdwyguy, Dfrankjazz, Carey, 7 invisible),
2,075
guests, and
323
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
500 Post Club Member
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971 |
There are better substances than graphite. Don't forget that a longer let off distance will affect softer dynamics as well as repetition. What would you recommend over graphite? And in your experience, in what way did a longer let-off affect the dynamics and repetition?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971 |
You can disagree all you like, but that is what is in Kimball's specification. Fair enough, but as I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure this piano had a let-off close to 3/8" (some keys more like 1/2") direct from the factory. The piano was not played much, and I can't imagine the screws moved that much on their own, or the felt could be compressed that much. Perhaps I'm overreacting: Most of the keys will let off the jack no matter how slowly you depress the key, but there are a few that will not if you press slowly enough, and the jack will remain on the hammer butt. Is this normal?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060 |
You come here asking for information, and when someone gives you it, you argue about it. That is precisely why many professionals will not bother with the amateurs.
I am offering information only, just so others will not be led astray. For everything else, you are on your own.
Semipro Tech
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971 |
You come here asking for information, and when someone gives you it, you argue about it. That is precisely why many professionals will not bother with the amateurs.
I am offering information only, just so others will not be led astray. For everything else, you are on your own. You are completely misunderstanding me. I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just telling you the facts of my situation. For the record, I appreciate that you took the time to find the factory specifications for me. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131 |
There are better substances than graphite. Don't forget that a longer let off distance will affect softer dynamics as well as repetition. What would you recommend over graphite? And in your experience, in what way did a longer let-off affect the dynamics and repetition? Powdered Teflon lubricant. Its certainly marvelous on grand knuckles. While some have their preference I tend to use Teflon in many places that previously used graphite. But there is a certain finesse to using it... application, burnishing it in... However, I would concern myself with proper regulation of the action before any such treatments. After that I would then concern myself with friction measurements at action centers. Then I would look at lubrication needs.
PTG Associate
AIO Regular Member
ASCAP
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional
AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131 |
There are better substances than graphite. Don't forget that a longer let off distance will affect softer dynamics as well as repetition. And in your experience, in what way did a longer let-off affect the dynamics and repetition? Consider how the hammer travels in response to the various demands of dynamics. A softer dynamic involves a slower depression of the key with less forward momentum and usually involves the full range of key travel and key dip. If let off happens too soon in respect to key travel then the hammer will not have enough inertia to contact the strings. The larger the let off distance the less softer dynamic you have. With repetition... the further away the hammer is the more distance that must be made up before restrike is possible. Certainly the jack and the timing for it to reset in relation to key stroke is important for both quick and louder dynamic playing. Checking is also very important in that regard too. So many things.
PTG Associate
AIO Regular Member
ASCAP
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional
AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971 |
It looks like my middle E and D trill is actually
faster and cleaner without the sustain pedal depressed.
With the sustain pedal down, they are noticably more sluggish
than the other keys around them.
Logic would say the damper springs are helping to
push the key back, so with the sustain pedal
down, the hammer butt spring is not strong
enough on these keys.
Problem is, I just re-assembled the action and keys,
and don't feel like taking it apart again to maybe
make the springs stronger. Maybe I can just lube it
a bit?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326 |
It looks like my middle E and D trill is actually
faster and cleaner without the sustain pedal depressed.
With the sustain pedal down, they are noticably more sluggish
than the other keys around them.
Logic would say the damper springs are helping to
push the key back, so with the sustain pedal
down, the hammer butt spring is not strong
enough on these keys.
Problem is, I just re-assembled the action and keys,
and don't feel like taking it apart again to maybe
make the springs stronger. Maybe I can just lube it
a bit? Lubricate before increasing spring tension. The basic principle is to fix the problem by fixing the problem, not by adding a countervailing problem. The issue is more likely the result of tight wippen flange centers than weak springs -- although it could be a combination. Letoff (jack escapement) should be as close as practical to the strings. (In this discussion closer to 1/8" than 1/4" if you can make it work. Backed-off letoff will definitely interfere with trills. Also, it may help to tweak the checking closer -- if possible. On these pianos, regulating specifications are to be treated as light fiction or the account of a 3rd-hand witness -- perhaps interesting, but possibly irrelevant to the case at hand. What is needed is to make the piano actually work -- which, on instruments of this ilk can be a challenge.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131 |
Its seems that the old adage is true... you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... but if you like eating pig ears...
PTG Associate
AIO Regular Member
ASCAP
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional
AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971 |
Haha! The front bushings of the keys were binding on the pins! A little squeeze with pliers, and MUCH looser and faster trills. Well, as fast as you can trill on a slow spinet at least. Now I have to go through all the keys.  Edit: Boy, almost all the keys need a plier squeeze, most on both bushings. This must be the [censored]-poor quality control from the Kimball factory someone spoke of.....
Last edited by Paul678; 01/11/14 03:15 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131
1000 Post Club Member
|
|
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,131 |
I would highly recommend proper key easing pliers if you're going to do anything with the key bushings be they front rail or balance rail. Damaging the bushing, mortise, or even cracking the key stock itself will be most upsetting.
PTG Associate
AIO Regular Member
ASCAP
Pipe Organ Builder
Chief Instrument Technician, Director, Chancel Arts
Church Music Professional
AA Music Arts 2001, BM Organ, Choral 2005
Baldwin F 1960 (146256)
Zuckermann Flemish Single
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562 |
Haha! The front bushings of the keys were binding on the pins! A little squeeze with pliers, and MUCH looser and faster trills. Well, as fast as you can trill on a slow spinet at least. Now I have to go through all the keys. Edit: Boy, almost all the keys need a plier squeeze, most on both bushings. This must be the [censored]-poor quality control from the Kimball factory someone spoke of..... There's a tool for that, too: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.vandaking.com/media/images/s-3105.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
|
|
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 32,060 |
Haha! The front bushings of the keys were binding on the pins! A little squeeze with pliers, and MUCH looser and faster trills. Well, as fast as you can trill on a slow spinet at least. Now I have to go through all the keys. Edit: Boy, almost all the keys need a plier squeeze, most on both bushings. This must be the [censored]-poor quality control from the Kimball factory someone spoke of..... There's a tool for that, too: That is not what I would use for easing keys, though, You can split a key with that.
Semipro Tech
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,326 |
Haha! The front bushings of the keys were binding on the pins! A little squeeze with pliers, and MUCH looser and faster trills. Well, as fast as you can trill on a slow spinet at least. Now I have to go through all the keys. Edit: Boy, almost all the keys need a plier squeeze, most on both bushings. This must be the [censored]-poor quality control from the Kimball factory someone spoke of..... As I had said, friction would be the likely culprit. You found what is certainly the biggest contributor, but other friction points could also receive attention. Again, cleaning and lubrication can be a big step in reducing friction before more aggressive steps. However, despite other deficiencies that can certainly be laid at Kimball's feet, the keybushings are probably not one of them. They were probably fine when they left the factory and many years since. The cause has been environmental exposure and the passage of time. Crud buildup on the keypins will significantly increase friction. The proper fix is cleaning and lubrication if that is the case (not mechanical easing). Humidity could have expanded the mortises causing pinching. The proper repair for that is either squeezing or ironing with a heated broach. Glad you found the problem.
Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971
500 Post Club Member
|
|
OP
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 971 |
Haha! The front bushings of the keys were binding on the pins! A little squeeze with pliers, and MUCH looser and faster trills. Well, as fast as you can trill on a slow spinet at least. Now I have to go through all the keys. Edit: Boy, almost all the keys need a plier squeeze, most on both bushings. This must be the [censored]-poor quality control from the Kimball factory someone spoke of..... As I had said, friction would be the likely culprit. You found what is certainly the biggest contributor, but other friction points could also receive attention. Again, cleaning and lubrication can be a big step in reducing friction before more aggressive steps. However, despite other deficiencies that can certainly be laid at Kimball's feet, the keybushings are probably not one of them. They were probably fine when they left the factory and many years since. The cause has been environmental exposure and the passage of time. Crud buildup on the keypins will significantly increase friction. The proper fix is cleaning and lubrication if that is the case (not mechanical easing). Humidity could have expanded the mortises causing pinching. The proper repair for that is either squeezing or ironing with a heated broach. Glad you found the problem. Yes, thanks for all the replies here. I know I need the proper key easing pliers, but since they are about $100-120, I decided to hold off until I get more serious about this. I also couldn't wait for them to ship, so I made do with a pair of pliers and a flat piece of sheet metal so I didn't damage the outside of each key. Yes, I will still probably hit the jack heads with graphite, although the Telfon beads are cheaper than I thought: http://www.howardpianoindustries.com/micro-fine-ptfe-powder/ Problem now is: I can't blame the piano for my weak trilling!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562
2000 Post Club Member
|
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,562 |
Haha! The front bushings of the keys were binding on the pins! A little squeeze with pliers, and MUCH looser and faster trills. Well, as fast as you can trill on a slow spinet at least. Now I have to go through all the keys. Edit: Boy, almost all the keys need a plier squeeze, most on both bushings. This must be the [censored]-poor quality control from the Kimball factory someone spoke of..... There's a tool for that, too: That is not what I would use for easing keys, though, You can split a key with that. I've been using it for pretty much the past 37 years, and I have yet to split a key. Finesse...
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,392
Posts3,349,302
Members111,634
| |
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
