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#2200704 - 12/20/13 08:32 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted By: Daniel Richter

Maybe some of you can do a simulation in LTSpice following the suggestion of dewster of replacing R1 with a 4.7k ohm resistor. If show improvement I will do a real-live test.


Daniel, I tried it with a 4.7k, and it cut the 20 ms to 17ms or so, but that's with the 1.0uF still in the circuit. Removing that cuts the lag to microseconds, which is what is confusing about your results with the cap removed.
_________________________
Jack

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#2200715 - 12/20/13 08:58 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: joflah]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
Maybe the ES100 electronics might get something to do with how the F-10H pedal works. At least with switch the ES100 looks fast.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2212872 - 01/11/14 02:16 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
After contacting Kawai, this is what they say:

"An internal problem was discovered in a small number of early production units of the ES100 which caused the pedal to operate in the manner that you describe. This problem was quickly corrected and new ES100s now respond correctly to the pedal. The problem was never in the pedal, but rather in the keyboard, so a different pedal will produce the same results on your unit."

I first though the problem was the pedal. They say is the digital piano itself.

If you choice ES100, make sure you get one from the new ones where they say they correct this.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2212882 - 01/11/14 02:24 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
Squall21 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 25
That's good to hear.

Daniel, how would you suggest I test this out to see if the one the dealer puts out in the store has any latency issues?

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#2212887 - 01/11/14 02:37 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Squall21]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
In a store is kinda hard to test. Delay is 0.1 seconds for pressing pedal; 0.07 seconds when releasing pedal. Is not very obvious delay for "inexperienced ears".

If you have a good ear, you could try press a key, release the key at the same time you press pedal very fast. The sound should sustain without any damping. If have the delay, the note will damp a little.


Edited by Daniel Richter (01/11/14 02:40 PM)
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2212938 - 01/11/14 04:11 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted By: Daniel Richter

I first though the problem was the pedal. They say is the digital piano itself.
If you choice ES100, make sure you get one from the new ones where they say they correct this.


It's great you've tracked down the problem. Is there any recourse for you? A firmware update, or a warranty replacement of the unit?
_________________________
Jack

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#2212971 - 01/11/14 04:50 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: joflah]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
They say only a warranty replacement is the solution. Sad part is that I live in Venezuela and shipment would cost around 500 US$. I could buy a new Casio PX-150 with that.

Not sure what I am going to do frown

The only positive thing i can say is that the sound on ES100 is excellent, keys feel very good, keys don't make much noise, and Kawai was good on customer support. On their side there is no problem to replace the product.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2212994 - 01/11/14 05:38 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Wow. Couldn't they just ship you an updated circuit card?
_________________________
Jack

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#2212999 - 01/11/14 05:43 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: joflah]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
I guess could be an option, but not sure if easy to replace by non-qualify person like me.

Maybe I can ask them, but opening the unit would invalidate warranty for the future.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2213003 - 01/11/14 05:49 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 334
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Well, if you asked them and they authorized it, maybe the warranty would still hold. After all, you do have a product with an admitted design defect, and it shouldn't cost you to get it set right.


Edited by joflah (01/11/14 05:50 PM)
_________________________
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#2213128 - 01/11/14 10:18 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Daniel, if this is how Kawai is treating you for a problem they caused, I'd demand a full refund including shipping back to them. There are other DP manufacturers in the sea.

And what ES100's are safe to buy? Is there a serial number below which people should avoid like the plague?
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#2213154 - 01/11/14 11:38 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9674
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, Kawai America will replace the instrument under warranty.

However, their warranty covers the US only, which is why Daniel has been asked to return the instrument to a location in the US, where it can be collected and replaced.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2213206 - 01/12/14 02:39 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: dewster]
pwl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/13
Posts: 207
Loc: Bay Area CA
Originally Posted By: dewster
And what ES100's are safe to buy? Is there a serial number below which people should avoid like the plague?

Seems to me this is the critical issue now. For example, I'm seriously interested in purchasing an ES100. But no way do I do this unless I know the one I'm buying is NOT one of the "small number of early production units of the ES100 which caused the pedal to operate in the manner that you describe". And it also seems to me that if they've just discovered this, the likelihood of me getting one of the "small number" is fairly high, since my dealer has had his ES100's in stock for a while.

Bottom line: Be forthcoming, Kawai. What are the affected serial numbers?

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#2213261 - 01/12/14 07:28 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
dewster, Kawai America will replace the instrument under warranty.

However, their warranty covers the US only, which is why Daniel has been asked to return the instrument to a location in the US, where it can be collected and replaced.

When is a warranty not a warranty? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit the above as exhibit A.

I volunteer to fly down to Venezuela and fix this ES100 if Kawai sends the repair board and Daniel spends the $500 postage on my round-trip air fare! ;-)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#2213276 - 01/12/14 08:28 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3899
Loc: North Carolina
What jury? "Exhibit A" of what?
(Or is this just another rant?)

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#2213541 - 01/12/14 05:46 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: dewster]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
I will ask them if there is a way to know if a unit is the fix one or the old one with the problem.

Also I will try to push to give me a measurement of latency. For now they say "is fix on new units", but I want proves and data about what "fix" means. In other words: how much latency Kawai consider "normal" or acceptable? I already ask but they didn't give me any data.

I am still thinking what are i am going to do, but like dewster say, right now i feel to change brand.

I maybe could afford get the ES100 in the US, but not sure if i can afford also the shipping cost back to kawai. I will ask them if i can get a refund that way, they paying shipping.

If that works, now I will be in the old-dilemma of "what DP to buy?". Sad because I was happy with ES100. Other models don't really look that great, at that price. Casio with noisy keys, yamaha with too light keys, roland with keys that feel very unrealistic, and Korg... I don't really know anything about korg models. I can't find people with korg models at that price. My budge was 600$ but I push to 800$ for the ES100, so don't recommend the Yamaha P-155.

I hear might be a new model Yamaha P-255. I suppose an updated version of the P-155. If price is lower, might be a winner. Not sure when will be release, though.

Thanks for the support guys. I will post any news when I figure out what I am going to do.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2216464 - 01/17/14 11:20 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
Now when using switch pedal, sometimes i press and is not sustain. I though was the pedal, but actually is the ES100. This happens when press and release and press again quickly.

I am force to use the F-10H pedal with the latency.

This ES100 is a mess.

No doubt is going back, but not sure when or how, nor know if get another brand.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2216470 - 01/17/14 11:37 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9674
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Daniel Richter
No doubt is going back, but not sure when or how...


Daniel, it is my understanding that Kawai America have offered to collect your ES100 and pay for it to be sent back to the US (from where it was purchased). This gesture goes beyond the obligations of the warranty, and in my opinion is quite a generous offer.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2216472 - 01/17/14 11:46 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Kawai James]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
Yes, is a great offer. I never complaint on kawai support. From beginning I always say Kawai was very good on that aspect.

Problem remains that I have to pay to send it back here and is like 500$. Or I can pay send to US and kawai pay send to venezuela. Ether way I would have to pay the 500$. I am not asking kawai pay that too, but still is a problem for me.

Not sure yet what I am going to do. Maybe I can travel to US with the DP and Kawai can collect the ES100 from US. A lot cheaper for them and me. That will still be problematic, but is my plan A, for now.

I send email to them a few days ago. Would have to wait for reply.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2216491 - 01/18/14 01:19 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Kawai James]
pwl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/31/13
Posts: 207
Loc: Bay Area CA
Kawai James -

Can you make the case to Kawai (use your influence!) that they need to tell the public what serial numbers are affected re the pedal issue?

Until I can be assured that the ES100 I buy will not have the problem, I don't see how I can make the purchase. If Kawai's answer is "You're covered under warranty if there's a problem", that's not satisfactory considering this is a KNOWN issue that Kawai says affected a "small number" of units and has been corrected in current production. If that's so, tell the consumer the relevant serial number info so he can be confident in the ES100 he's buying.

Thanks for all you bring to this board!

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#2216537 - 01/18/14 06:31 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: pwl]
blackspaven Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/27/13
Posts: 98
My mate who literally just bought one probably won't be affected by this, but I'm sure he'd feel more confident knowing which serial numbers it affects too.

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#2216545 - 01/18/14 07:33 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Daniel Richter
Now when using switch pedal, sometimes i press and is not sustain. I though was the pedal, but actually is the ES100. This happens when press and release and press again quickly.

I'm amazed at how lame this ES100 is, and how poorly Kawai is handling this whole situation. Known bad products should be repaired / replaced at no expense to their unfortunate owners, regardless of where they live or where they bought it.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#2216558 - 01/18/14 08:34 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3899
Loc: North Carolina
Compare Kawai to Apple ... and then Kawai looks pretty good.

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#2216568 - 01/18/14 08:59 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: dewster]
blackspaven Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/27/13
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Daniel Richter
Now when using switch pedal, sometimes i press and is not sustain. I though was the pedal, but actually is the ES100. This happens when press and release and press again quickly.

I'm amazed at how lame this ES100 is, and how poorly Kawai is handling this whole situation. Known bad products should be repaired / replaced at no expense to their unfortunate owners, regardless of where they live or where they bought it.


Am I missing something or wat makes it lame apart from a SINGLE fault in older models?? Seems a bit of an over-reaction.

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#2216592 - 01/18/14 09:41 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3899
Loc: North Carolina
True. Also: I'm reading here lots technobabble about a few msecs of pedal latency, which would seem to be below the threshold of perception. I'm not sure the problem is even significant. Is it really a problem?

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#2216631 - 01/18/14 10:53 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: MacMacMac]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4358
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: blackspaven
Am I missing something or wat makes it lame apart from a SINGLE fault in older models?? Seems a bit of an over-reaction.

To clarify: I'm amazed at how lame Daniel's ES100 is, not necessarily ES100's in general.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#2216651 - 01/18/14 11:29 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: MacMacMac]
Daniel Richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 183
Loc: Venezuela
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
True. Also: I'm reading here lots technobabble about a few msecs of pedal latency, which would seem to be below the threshold of perception. I'm not sure the problem is even significant. Is it really a problem?

Is very notable, sorry to say. In real life make a lot of difference. That is why i start investigating and testing.

I know what I am doing. I play piano for many years and I am telling the truth. Is way pass the line of perception.
_________________________
Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100

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#2216880 - 01/18/14 08:32 PM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
lolatu Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/01/13
Posts: 559
Loc: UK
If there are known to be faulty units out there, what kind of company doesn't issue a recall, but waits to see if people notice and fixes it under warranty?

Unless they do a recall, faulty ES100s will be showing up on the second-hand market for years to come, and Kawai's reputation for quality will nose-dive.
_________________________
Kawai CA95 / Pianoteq Stage / Sony MDR-7506 / Steinberg UR22
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810

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#2216999 - 01/19/14 05:35 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: lolatu]
blackspaven Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/27/13
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: lolatu
If there are known to be faulty units out there, what kind of company doesn't issue a recall, but waits to see if people notice and fixes it under warranty?


Try... most car companies, for a start. As an example, the VAG group have an issue with 2.0 TFSI engines in that the timing chain tensioner MAY stop doing it's job which leads to the chain jumping and usually needing a replacement engine! They know about it, but it happens quite infrequently so there's no recall as it's in such small numbers. It gets dealt with on an individual basis cos it's much, much cheaper.

Possibly what will happen here IF people complain. Other's might not be as bothered by it or not notice it. By what has been said on here, it's so few models that MAY have this fault, that it's likely to make zero impact on the brand name down the line as it'll be a fraction of a percent that have it. Daniel is the only person on here to have mentioned it, it's hardly cost effective for them, let alone any company, to track down and write to every ES100 owner: even a press release will likely go un-noticed by most so there's not much point.

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#2217485 - 01/20/14 04:42 AM Re: Kawai F-10H pedal have too much latency/delay [Re: Daniel Richter]
blackspaven Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/27/13
Posts: 98
Got an email this morning from Kawai Europe who have said that as far as they know none of the UK sold models are the 'early' examples with this issue.

So if you're buying in the UK at least you can buy with confidence and have no worries if you've already got one.

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