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#2213556 - 01/12/14 05:58 PM Testing latency on Mac
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11968
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I've hooked up my VPC1! Finally! I'm using True Keys American Grand, and I tried the 5 presets. I'll want to tweak the velocity curves via the editor on hubby's PC laptop, but I'm noticing a bit of latency that is a little bothersome when I'm playing big ff chords.

I'm just wondering, could this be resolved by adjusting the velocity curves?

I LOVE the touch of the VPC though. It's heavy like my Petrof, so I'm very used to that. The 3 pedals are great, I'll just have to rigg up something to keep them from sliding on the wood floors.

True Keys is sounding great, too - you get a nice growl out of it when needed. wink
_________________________
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2213566 - 01/12/14 06:20 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3825
Loc: North Carolina
Latency is in no way related to the velocity curve.

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#2213576 - 01/12/14 06:37 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9208
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Morodiene,

I believe there should be some polyphony/buffer settings in TrueKeys that may help to reduce latency. If not, it may be worthwhile investing in a new, low-latency audio device...however, I was under the impression that this was not necessary on Macs.

May I ask what is the generation/specification of your Mac?

Oh, congrats on the VPC1 too, by the way. wink

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2213597 - 01/12/14 07:30 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2106
Loc: Rocky Mountains
The latency is very low on Mac's. Only someone who plays a lot on an acoustic can tell.

If you want it lower than that. I fear you're gonna need somebody who really knows that they are doing. And possibly spend some money.

I just face the fact that I have slight latency. I'm used to it.
Bear in mind. This is nothing compared to what the ms people fight. They end up with latency like a Mac. Low enough.

Originally Posted By: Morodiene
...I LOVE the touch of the VPC though....


Am glad you like it. You can see why Ingrid talks to me like she does. I touch her ever so.... smile
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2213606 - 01/12/14 07:49 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11968
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I did adjust the buffer size, and I could go further if need be, just wasn't sure if that was the route to go. It's not terrible latency, either, so that could be a quick solution.

My Macbook Pro has a 2.5 GHz intel core 2 duo processor and 4 GB RAM, running Mac OSX 10.7.5. I did just pick up a Roland Quad Capture usb interface for other purposes but I certainly can try this if needed.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2213779 - 01/13/14 02:05 AM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 806
Morodiene, I'm struggling with latencies as well on my Mac PowerBook. If you are used to acoustic pianos, only the lowest latency values seem to do. Reducing polyphony, optimizing buffer settings, determining the best amount of samples preloaded into RAM and choosing the best sampling rate (96kHz) helps, but in my experience there is a trade-off between low latencies and smooth operation of the sample player.

Sometimes I wonder whether the audio output of my PowerBook is part of the problem, but I have not checked this by using an external audio device.

That's why I usually prefer to hook up my VPC1 to my Nord Electro - great combination, no discernible latencies at all.

Enjoy your new keys!
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

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#2213793 - 01/13/14 03:02 AM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1283
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I've hooked up my VPC1! Finally! I'm using True Keys American Grand, and I tried the 5 presets. I'll want to tweak the velocity curves via the editor on hubby's PC laptop, but I'm noticing a bit of latency that is a little bothersome when I'm playing big ff chords.

I'm just wondering, could this be resolved by adjusting the velocity curves?

I LOVE the touch of the VPC though. It's heavy like my Petrof, so I'm very used to that. The 3 pedals are great, I'll just have to rigg up something to keep them from sliding on the wood floors.

True Keys is sounding great, too - you get a nice growl out of it when needed. wink


I was particularly interested in your feedback on the touch knowing you had a decent AP - pleased and maybe even a bit relieved you find them similar.

What about the let-off simulation? Are you amongst those pianists who think it's an asset? As an additional tool for expression or just because it's reassuringly like an AP?

sliding pedals: I've cut a retaining slot in a strip of wood which runs between the base of the tubes of my X-stand - zero movement. I'll post a pic if you want to try the same idea.

Looking forward to hearing your true-keys in one of the recitals. (Not too much reverb, if poss!)

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#2213865 - 01/13/14 08:42 AM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11968
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
I will play around with the settings in TK more as well as adjust the velocity curves on the VPC to get the right sound/response - some of the presets work better than others, but nothing is just right (I fell like Goldilocks). If the latency persists I will try the audio interface.

My stand is a table stand for now. Hubby said he'd make a nice wood stand for it (or maybe make one from an old upright), so in the meantime, a simple fix would be good. I'm just thinking the positioning of the pedals wouldn't match up with the back legs of the stand - the pedals are generally further back than that, aren't they? At least on a grand.

I am ready to record 2 of the 3 Tchaikovsky pieces for the recital, or at least, I'm ready to begin attempting that! So once I get this all sorted I will try to do them and post it here.

Which brings me to this question which is slightly OT: How does one record with this setup? I have Cubase Elements, so would TK show up as an audio input, or in the sound library?
_________________________
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MTNA member
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2213901 - 01/13/14 09:58 AM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1283
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I will play around with the settings in TK more as well as adjust the velocity curves on the VPC to get the right sound/response - some of the presets work better than others, but nothing is just right (I fell like Goldilocks). If the latency persists I will try the audio interface.

I'm using vintage D. No problem with latency but I haven't sorted out a velocity curve which really suits me. No question, with the VPC1 we have the tools but the 'perfect' setting eludes me. Fair to say I haven't put in the necessary time and have settled for just-ok for the mo.

Quote:

My stand is a table stand for now. Hubby said he'd make a nice wood stand for it (or maybe make one from an old upright), so in the meantime, a simple fix would be good. I'm just thinking the positioning of the pedals wouldn't match up with the back legs of the stand - the pedals are generally further back than that, aren't they? At least on a grand.


I'm away at the moment, back in a couple of days - will put up a pic of the 'ultimate' solution, lol. There's no problem getting the pedals back beyond the legs as you'll see.

Quote:
Which brings me to this question which is slightly OT: How does one record with this setup? I have Cubase Elements, so would TK show up as an audio input, or in the sound library?


I'm still on Cubase 5 which might have a different menu layout but if it's similar, look under the heading 'Devices' (they might use another heading) and look for an entry for 'VST instruments' - on C5 this comes up with the shortcut F11. You should then be able to select the UVI host in a drop down menu which will bring TK into Cubase. THen you need to set up a Midi track and assign its output to UVI. Not sure if that's going to cover it but someone else will fill the gaps or correct me if I'm wrong..

To get the audio you need to 'export' your finished performance as 'Audio Mixdown' (C5 has export under the 'File' menu).

If the layout is different, the above info might not be helpful.



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#2214088 - 01/13/14 05:13 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
oivavoi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 48
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

My Macbook Pro has a 2.5 GHz intel core 2 duo processor and 4 GB RAM, running Mac OSX 10.7.5. I did just pick up a Roland Quad Capture usb interface for other purposes but I certainly can try this if needed.


Morodiene, I have no idea if this would help, but you could try to either upgrade or downgrade the OS you're using. OSX lion, 10.7, is widely considered to be the worst Mac OS from recent years. I have a Macbook Pro from the stone age (late 2006) and it can still do all the tasks I need it to do using Snow Leopard (OSX 10.6), efficient and fast and without any hassle. However, I briefly tried out Lion, and I had nothing but problems. So I downgraded back to Snow Leopard fairly quick. If I were you I would upgrade to OSX Mavericks, it is actually free (and the process is simple, using the app store) . It might or it might not help with the latency (worth a try though), but it would anyway speed up your mac.

Or you could downgrade to Snow Leopard, which IMO it is still the OSX to beat... smile (spoken like a true luddite)
_________________________
Happily improvising at my Kawai CS10

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#2214240 - 01/13/14 11:09 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11968
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
oivavoi: Thanks for the info. I may try upgrading to the Mavericks if you think that is the source of the problem. I haven't had any troubles with the 10.7.5, but it's worth a shot if it's free. (I run snow leopard on my IMac and that's been a trooper too). smile
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2214330 - 01/14/14 04:38 AM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 770
Loc: Dorset, UK
I am using OSX 10.8.5 on a 2.6GHz i7, 8GB RAM, 500GB SDD Macbook Pro. No latency problems with the TK set of pianos. Using all mics, max polyphony, harmonic polyphony upped from 10 to 20. Also blend ES7 internal sound with TK piano without any discernible separation in time of the "voices".

One view, I know, is that SSD vs HDD makes no difference to latency, but there must be some fetching and carrying from disk involved in playing a s/w piano.

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#2214644 - 01/14/14 03:10 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: sandalholme]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: sandalholme

One view, I know, is that SSD vs HDD makes no difference to latency, but there must be some fetching and carrying from disk involved in playing a s/w piano.



Using a HDD, if the system exposed the player to the latency caused by the "fetching and carrying from the disk", you'd notice it very quickly - it would be dreadful to play. You may not notice it just playing single notes, but you'd definitely notice it when playing chords. The s/w is designed to shield the player from the characteristics of the slow disk drive. So yes, if you simply replace a HDD with an SDD, without changing the audio buffer setting in your s/w player, you, the performer, will not notice any difference in latency whatsoever.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (01/14/14 03:15 PM)

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#2216163 - 01/17/14 11:03 AM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1283
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
The 3 pedals are great, I'll just have to rigg up something to keep them from sliding on the wood floors.


- unless you've sorted out something for yourself



- not exactly master carpentry!

...but it works a treat...

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#2217135 - 01/19/14 01:21 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: Morodiene]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 2106
Loc: Rocky Mountains
I upped the buffer size on my Ivory. Found unacceptable latency. I dropped it back down.
Wouldn't upping the RAM help with this? I'm only running 4 gigs.
_________________________
Ron
Your brain is a sponge. Keep it wet. Mary Gae George
The focus of your personal practice is discipline. Not numbers. Scott Sonnon

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#2217203 - 01/19/14 03:34 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: dire tonic]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11968
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
The 3 pedals are great, I'll just have to rigg up something to keep them from sliding on the wood floors.


- unless you've sorted out something for yourself



- not exactly master carpentry!

...but it works a treat...


Great idea! I'll have to get hubby started on that wink
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2217205 - 01/19/14 03:35 PM Re: Testing latency on Mac [Re: rnaple]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11968
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: rnaple
I upped the buffer size on my Ivory. Found unacceptable latency. I dropped it back down.
Wouldn't upping the RAM help with this? I'm only running 4 gigs.


I increased the buffer size and it's much better. I should try running it with the Activity Monitor open just to see how much it getting eaten up.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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