Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Help with double notes

So I've always had a hard time playing double notes exactly at the same time. I've read a few things on double notes and playing them well seems to be a difficult task that requires lots of practice, yet you can find them even in very easy beginner pieces. And of course even if you play them just a tiny fraction of a second apart, they ruin everything. This is easy to see in MIDI recordings, when the beginning of the lines representing the two notes does not match perfectly.

I've read Graham Fitch's suggestions and watched videos, but I haven't been able to improve much, especially because most exercises are continuous runs of successive double notes, while I find it more difficult when double notes are interspersed in a single-note legato melody. One example is Schumann's Melodie: I was quite happy today because I managed to play it through without mistakes on the acoustic, but when I played the video back I heard those terrible double notes sticking out here and there. And I thought I had managed them better than usual! As you can imagine, my chords aren't perfect either, especially in the right hand.

What I'm doing is trying to move the hand into the new position as quickly as possible and feel the keys before playing, pressing from the surface. I found this useful, but not conclusive. Anyone would like to share their secrets with me?

I suppose practicing for instance the Choral on the next page(Op 68 No 4) with only double notes will help? Maybe it has to do with fingerstrength?

Now that you mention it. The method my teacher uses puts quite a lot of emphasis on getting doubles and triples right (not chords though).

Practice and making sure there isn't tension. Playing from the surface like you are doing is good but you need to make sure, still, that you are relaxed at that point.

It sounds to me like you are on the right track and are just frustrated it's not coming quicker. I wouldn't sweat that, it will come with time and continued practice.

While I like hearing separation in double notes for effect (it adds a lot of richness/dimension to the sound than simultaneous playing) I also believe it should be done on purpose and not due to not being able to play them together.

If we are dealing with playing two white keys or two black keys, then we have one uneven surface to worry about: the fingers. They each are of different length and because of that, when pressing down the keys the longer ones will reach the bottom of the keybed faster than the shorter ones.

To compensate for this, play the fingers on a flat surface first, then lift your arm and look at your fingers still in that position, then without moving your fingers transfer that to the notes. Go back and forth like this slowly until you really can feel it correctly on the keys and it sounds simultaneous to your ears.

Then slowly reincorporate that back into the melody, going for the same feeling when the double note(s) arrives.

It's a bit more complicated when you have black/white key combinations, and when you have several double notes in succession. In this instance, you actually need to have some of the fingers longer than the others for the black keys if you are playing down for mostly white keys, or for the white keys when you are mostly further up to play mostly black keys. I hope I'm describing this clearly.

For black/white combination double notes - let's say C-E-flat using fingers 1-3 - press both notes down completely and don't worry if they sound together, just get both the keys down to the bottom of the keybed. Then lift your arm while keeping the fingers in place. You will see the shape they must be in to play simultaneously, and pay attention to the feel. Try to put the hand back down to play the keys again, and repeat this until they can play simultaneously.

When incorporating back into a melodic line, work on only the note prior to the double notes going to the double note. Let's say before the above example of C-E-flat on fingers 1-3, you play the F above with finger 4. I would practice going from F to E-flat (4-3) several times, then F to C (4-1) several times. Then I'd do the above drill to press 1&3 simultaneous, then when I could do that, I'd play it as written. This should be easier. Then add the note prior to the F, and the note after the double notes.

Practising too many double notes is just frustrating. While the fingers are of uneven length double notes will be hard to coordinate. 2 & 4 is easy 1 & 3 is manageable but 3 & 5 is really hard.

I've done frequent and regular double third scales but it's so easy not to listen carefully enough or try hard enough in scales.

I recommend choosing a couple of pieces that make use of double thirds and use them as technical exercises. The Spiritoso from Clementi's sonatina no. 3 has some nice staccato passages to exercise and the Rondo of his sixth sonatina has a nice mix of legato and staccato to work on. Just a few bars of each is enough for a short daily stint.

While you practise aim for spot on accuracy. When measuring your achievemnets and setting goals allow yourself more leeway. Double thirds don't happen overnight. The motor skills required for such fine tuning of uneven fingers takes long hours of careful diligence.

The exercise you're doing is one I would recommend. You'll need to start slow enough that you c a n feel the keys for a beat before dropping the arm. This means really slow but the motor skills need to be very fine here. When you can do it slowly and you start playing thirds in your pieces you have to concentrate more at those passages. You can't slip into subconscious control here the way you can with most of your material.

Thank you everybody!

I am studying Bach's BWV 939 right now and I'm having trouble with the double notes and chords that come up here and there between the arpeggios. I do some Czerny and there are double notes but they don't sound too bad in fast exercises as they do when they are in the middle of a melody line. I also end up playing them louder, while trying to use arm weight. And of course if I think too much about this "problem" I end up waiting for it to happen at every corner. I will apply your suggestions.

What the heck is a double note? Like hitting a G and an A at the same time?

in that prelude you have octaves, thirds, 4ths and 6th doubles and are alternate. double notes are reasonably "easy" when they are very close together ( 3rds ) or far apart ( octaves ) in the middle ( 4ths, 5ths, 6ths ) they are harder because you are usually using either a more stretched position of the hand or a mixed fingering ( extreme finger and one in the middle ) 1 - 4, 2 - 5 comes to mind and they are harder to coordinate compared to 1 - 2, 1 - 3, 2 - 4, 3 - 5, 1 - 5.

practice hand separate and slow with multiple repetitions and different rhythmic patterns.
examples:

LH bar 1

DF - C#E repeat 10 times as 1/4 notes

do DF as 1/4+1/8 and C#E as 1/8 and patternize...
invert lengts.

DF as 1/4 and C#E,DF,C#E as 1/16... move the 1.4 to C#E... and so on..

don't do it for more than 5 minutes to avoid strain and try to keep the feeling between tension (while pulling the keys down and relative relaxation.. while maintaining the keys down ).

I also feel that in this kind of speed, you should "pull" down the keys from your wrist to give a good sound. in high speed double thirds you play mostly with a raised wrist and using the finger coordination... different ball game and different rules.

if you want to go further you might start to think about voicing the chords and doubles...

Thank you Ataru, lots to do for me tomorrow.

I am aware of voicing and I try to do it whenever I can, especially with octaves, but sometimes I wonder if I should, since I still struggle to hit the right notes in the first place...

Most of the difficulty comes from tension. If you are relaxed enough, your fingers adapt to the shape of the keys you're going to hit before you actually continue to the keybed. If your fingers are stiff by the time they take the shape of the chord (I will call two notes a chord since this problem applies to 2 or more notes), then you will hear the separation.

You just have to practice by listening. So the tension will be apparent in the listening. Harshness also disappears if you are less tense so it affects multiple things. Be conscious of your body at the time you practice.

Yes. Although I prefer to play notes rather than hitting them.

PS88, your sig disturbs me...I like to see it as EbMaj7#5...LOL.

Another thing to think about: Maybe it's not always you. Lost motion in the action could make some notes sound later than others. Gently touch all the keys, one at a time, and see if any move farther than the others before the hammer starts to move.