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#2215774 - 01/16/14 03:45 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Sammae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 47
Loc: Ottawa, ON
I'm only just back to playing piano in the last month after a 10 year break. These recitals are great for helping me pick some new repertoire - I'm relearning pieces I used to play but there's such an overwhelming number of pieces I want to learn! I'm especially finding myself swayed into only learning Chopin since I love his work.

This recital would give me an excuse to branch out! I'm looking at learning something a bit easier than some of my other pieces since it's such a large amount of work and I still want time to work on some other things. I'm considering:

Edward MacDowell - Op. 51 Woodland Sketches
or
Schumann - Op. 15 Scenes from Childhood

I'm not even sure if Scenes from Childhood classifies as a suite. It seems to depend what you read about it. Since suites after the Classical period don't seem to have the rigid structure, can someone help me out with what exactly defines it as such?
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Re-learning (polishing):
Chopin - Prelude in D-flat major Op. 28 No 15

Working on:
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Deubussy - Suite bergamasque - Clair de lune

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#2215781 - 01/16/14 04:01 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 622
Loc: Norway
What do the experts say about the Italian Concerto, Woodland Sketches and Scenes from Childhood? Can we count them as "suites"? I would say that the Italian Concerto is more like a sonata, but being an uneducated amateur I would really have some statement from the other participants.

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#2215830 - 01/16/14 05:33 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6296
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
I'm certainly no expert - but Bach named this work "Concerto in the Italian Style." If he'd considered it a suite or partita he would've called it that instead. The Woodland Sketches, on the other hand, are sometimes referred to as a "suite" even tho McDowell himself didn't name it as such. I've seen the Scenes from Childhood referred to as a "suite" along with Papillions - but not works such as Carnival or Album for the Young. Then, of course, we have the Mendelssohn Songs Without Words and Grieg Lyric Pieces - neither of which I've ever seen referred to as a suite. So - it tends to get kind of fuzzy - doesn't it??

Definitions of "suite" seem to fall into three general categories - as summarized below....

SUITE - Music
a. an instrumental composition consisting of several movements in the same key based on or derived from dance rhythms, esp in the baroque period
b. an instrumental composition in several movements less closely connected than a sonata
c. a piece of music containing movements based on or extracted from music already used in an opera, ballet, play, etc.

Collins Discovery Encyclopedia, 1st edition © HarperCollins Publishers 2005


Edited by carey (01/16/14 05:44 PM)
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#2215832 - 01/16/14 05:34 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7580
Loc: New York City
The Scenes from Childhood are definitely not a suite.
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Polyphonist

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#2215837 - 01/16/14 05:49 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6296
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: polyphonist
The Scenes from Childhood are definitely not a suite

Post withdrawn in deferance to Poly's concern over lack of relevancy.......


Edited by carey (01/16/14 08:24 PM)
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#2215842 - 01/16/14 05:57 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7580
Loc: New York City
What does that have to do with it?
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#2215907 - 01/16/14 08:24 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Polyphonist]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6296
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
What does that have to do with it?

Nothing now.
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#2215913 - 01/16/14 08:37 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Polyphonist]
ScriabinAddict Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 333
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
The Scenes from Childhood are definitely not a suite.

More of a cycle, but I don't see why it shouldn't count.

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#2215917 - 01/16/14 08:44 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7580
Loc: New York City
Because the title of the recital is "Suites."
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#2215952 - 01/16/14 10:55 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2314
Loc: San Jose, CA
The OP did say that "suite" should be in the title, with exceptions for other pieces with the common dance forms you find in Baroque suites, like From Holberg's Time. That's why Le Tombeau de Couperin is acceptable but Kinderscenen wouldn't fit the theme.


Edited by jeffreyjones (01/16/14 10:59 PM)

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#2216022 - 01/17/14 02:38 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 622
Loc: Norway
Updated list:

J.S.Bach

French Suite No.4 – 1RC
English Suite no.2 – FarmGirl
Partita no.1 - Carey
Partita no.3 - Ganddalf
Partita no.6 - Kuanpiano

G.F. Händel

Keyboard suite no. 16 - Cinnamobear

E.Grieg

Peer Gynt Suite no.1 - Damon
From Holberg's time - jeffreyjones

C.Debussy

Suite Bergamasque - woodog
Suite pour le Piano - neuralfirings

M.Ravel

Tombeau de Couperin - hreichgott + ScriabinAddict

B.Bartok

Suite Op.14 – Kreisler
Six Romanian Folk Dances - Carey

Deodat de Severac

En Languedoc: Suite pour piano - Tim Adrianson

Alberto Ginastera

Suite de Danzas Criollas - Orange Soda King

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#2216024 - 01/17/14 02:44 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: carey]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 622
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: carey
I'm certainly no expert - but Bach named this work "Concerto in the Italian Style." If he'd considered it a suite or partita he would've called it that instead. The Woodland Sketches, on the other hand, are sometimes referred to as a "suite" even tho McDowell himself didn't name it as such. I've seen the Scenes from Childhood referred to as a "suite" along with Papillions - but not works such as Carnival or Album for the Young. Then, of course, we have the Mendelssohn Songs Without Words and Grieg Lyric Pieces - neither of which I've ever seen referred to as a suite. So - it tends to get kind of fuzzy - doesn't it??

Definitions of "suite" seem to fall into three general categories - as summarized below....

SUITE - Music
a. an instrumental composition consisting of several movements in the same key based on or derived from dance rhythms, esp in the baroque period
b. an instrumental composition in several movements less closely connected than a sonata
c. a piece of music containing movements based on or extracted from music already used in an opera, ballet, play, etc.

Collins Discovery Encyclopedia, 1st edition © HarperCollins Publishers 2005


Based on this it seems that "Woodland Sketches" could be accepted as a suite while "Scenes from Childhood" and "Italian Concerto" are not. Since we have defined this as a "Suite" recital I suggest that we stick to this limitation.

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#2216025 - 01/17/14 02:48 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: jeffreyjones]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6296
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
The OP did say that "suite" should be in the title, with exceptions for other pieces with the common dance forms you find in Baroque suites, like From Holberg's Time. That's why Le Tombeau de Couperin is acceptable but Kinderscenen wouldn't fit the theme.

It's probably worth noting that only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Given this, where might Bartok's Six Romanian Folk Dances fit into the great scheme of things????
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#2216041 - 01/17/14 05:11 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: carey]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 622
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
The OP did say that "suite" should be in the title, with exceptions for other pieces with the common dance forms you find in Baroque suites, like From Holberg's Time. That's why Le Tombeau de Couperin is acceptable but Kinderscenen wouldn't fit the theme.

It's probably worth noting that only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Given this, where might Bartok's Six Romanian Folk Dances fit into the great scheme of things????


The OP gave these directions as an attempt to limit the scope of this recital. But I want to be flexible and avoid too much formalism.

Bartok's Romainan Folk Dances is a sequence of pieces with dance rhythms. In fact the word "suite" can also be translated a "sequence". Therefore I would say it fits.

Several of the modern "suites" contain movements without dance character. Suite Bergamasque also has only two "dances", and the main point is that the pieces are intended to be performed in sequence.

Anyhow I we must keep sonatas outside the scope even if they also consist of movements intended to be performed in "sequence". This is because the sonata is a well defined form and the literature is so huge that we can make several "sonata e-citals" later. I would, however, not have any objections to accepting the Italian Concerto in the "sonata" context.

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#2216061 - 01/17/14 07:38 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7804
Another question about acceptable pieces - I was toying with the idea of trying to learn a 20th century partita (by Arthur Berger) for this e-cital, and although it is a multiple movement work, none are dances. But, on the other hand, probably emulating Bach, there is an Aria and a Capriccio in it.

So I guess the question I have is - does anything titled "Partita" also fit, or just Bach's?

BTW, I'm not really ready to commit, but thought it was probably better to ask right away, before I spent too much time trying to figure out whether I can actually play it.

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#2216069 - 01/17/14 08:02 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: carey]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3885
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: carey
[...] It's probably worth noting that only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.[...]


In that case, it's worth noting that some suites and partitas from the Baroque period included a prelude, fugue, or toccata (or fantasie, sinfonia, or overture) along with the dance forms. smile
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I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2216079 - 01/17/14 08:12 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: wr]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 622
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: wr
Another question about acceptable pieces - I was toying with the idea of trying to learn a 20th century partita (by Arthur Berger) for this e-cital, and although it is a multiple movement work, none are dances. But, on the other hand, probably emulating Bach, there is an Aria and a Capriccio in it.

So I guess the question I have is - does anything titled "Partita" also fit, or just Bach's?

BTW, I'm not really ready to commit, but thought it was probably better to ask right away, before I spent too much time trying to figure out whether I can actually play it.




There is little difference between the meaning of "suite" and "partita". It sounds to me that the Artur Berger work fits well here.


Edited by Ganddalf (01/17/14 08:17 AM)

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#2216085 - 01/17/14 08:23 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7804
Originally Posted By: Ganddalf

There is little difference between the meaning of "suite" and "partita". It sounds to me that the Artur Berger work fits well here.


Thanks. That's what I think, too.

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#2216088 - 01/17/14 08:29 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Morodiene Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11800
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Ganddalf
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
The OP did say that "suite" should be in the title, with exceptions for other pieces with the common dance forms you find in Baroque suites, like From Holberg's Time. That's why Le Tombeau de Couperin is acceptable but Kinderscenen wouldn't fit the theme.

It's probably worth noting that only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Given this, where might Bartok's Six Romanian Folk Dances fit into the great scheme of things????


The OP gave these directions as an attempt to limit the scope of this recital. But I want to be flexible and avoid too much formalism.

Bartok's Romainan Folk Dances is a sequence of pieces with dance rhythms. In fact the word "suite" can also be translated a "sequence". Therefore I would say it fits.

Several of the modern "suites" contain movements without dance character. Suite Bergamasque also has only two "dances", and the main point is that the pieces are intended to be performed in sequence.

Anyhow I we must keep sonatas outside the scope even if they also consist of movements intended to be performed in "sequence". This is because the sonata is a well defined form and the literature is so huge that we can make several "sonata e-citals" later. I would, however, not have any objections to accepting the Italian Concerto in the "sonata" context.
What about Bartok Six Dances in Bulgarian Rhythms from Mikrokosmos Vol. 6?
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#2216102 - 01/17/14 09:01 AM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Morodiene]
Ganddalf Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 622
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
What about Bartok Six Dances in Bulgarian Rhythms from Mikrokosmos Vol. 6?


I don't know these pieces, but it sounds ok to me.

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#2216315 - 01/17/14 04:56 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
Sammae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 47
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Thanks everyone for the help!
_________________________
Re-learning (polishing):
Chopin - Prelude in D-flat major Op. 28 No 15

Working on:
Chopin - Waltz in C-sharp minor Op. 64 No. 2
Deubussy - Suite bergamasque - Clair de lune

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#2216381 - 01/17/14 08:10 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: albumblatter]
D. S. F. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 142
Originally Posted By: albumblatter
I have studied the two pieces from Feinberg's Suite No. 1, Op. 11 -- Etude no. 1 and no. 4.
I think it will be more than ample time for me to learn the other two pieces. smile
Please sign me up for Feinberg's Suite No. 1!


A couple of these pieces have never been recorded, to my knowledge, so we may be in for a premiere!
_________________________
Music does not have to be understood;
It has to be listened to.
- Hermann Scherchen.

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#2216390 - 01/17/14 08:31 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Polyphonist]
D. S. F. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 142
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
The Scenes from Childhood are definitely not a suite.


Funny, immediately after browsing this thread, I read this article posted in this thread. And I highlight this paragraph:

Quote:
The evening opened with the belated premiere of Marc Neikrug’s “Passions, Reflected” for solo piano, written in 2008. Structured in 12 sections, the piece was inspired, Mr. Neikrug told the audience, by Schumann’s imaginative suites for piano.
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Music does not have to be understood;
It has to be listened to.
- Hermann Scherchen.

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#2216407 - 01/17/14 09:27 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Ganddalf]
FarmGirl Online   content

Silver Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1974
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Hi everyone and Gandalf,
After due consideration and discussion with my friend, I decided to go French. Can I switch to French Suite II c minor BWV813. This one is much shorter and very pretty. My friend may join the forum to share this with me. Please put it under my name until he formerly joins. Thanks.

I will P-mail the same to Gandalf now.
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Solo - Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2, Schubert Sonata D960 Andante sostenute (9/7/14), Bach f minor Fugue WTC Bk1, Rachmaninoff Elegie Op 3 #1, Chopin Trois Nouvelles Etudes #1



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#2216416 - 01/17/14 10:01 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: carey]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 972
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: carey
only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes routinely appear in French Baroque suites. You're right about the other movements.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2216429 - 01/17/14 10:14 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: D. S. F.]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3885
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: D. S. F.
Originally Posted By: albumblatter
I have studied the two pieces from Feinberg's Suite No. 1, Op. 11 -- Etude no. 1 and no. 4.
I think it will be more than ample time for me to learn the other two pieces. smile
Please sign me up for Feinberg's Suite No. 1!


A couple of these pieces have never been recorded, to my knowledge, so we may be in for a premiere!


Whoa!!! Cool!!!
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2216431 - 01/17/14 10:18 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: hreichgott]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3885
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Originally Posted By: carey
only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes routinely appear in French Baroque suites. You're right about the other movements.


Are not Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes dance forms? Are you saying, "If it's a dance form, even if it's Italian, it's o.k."? (I think that's what I heard you say...)
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2216435 - 01/17/14 10:30 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: Cinnamonbear]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 972
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Originally Posted By: carey
only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes routinely appear in French Baroque suites. You're right about the other movements.


Are not Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes dance forms? Are you saying, "If it's a dance form, even if it's Italian, it's o.k."? (I think that's what I heard you say...)

Yes! I also support the Sarabande as part of a baroque suite, even though it is from Latin America.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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#2216441 - 01/17/14 10:36 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: hreichgott]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2314
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Originally Posted By: carey
only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes routinely appear in French Baroque suites. You're right about the other movements.


Are not Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes dance forms? Are you saying, "If it's a dance form, even if it's Italian, it's o.k."? (I think that's what I heard you say...)

Yes! I also support the Sarabande as part of a baroque suite, even though it is from Latin America.


It was a court dance for a couple of centuries before the time of Bach, so there is a long precedent for it. Interesting how a dance that was seen as indecent and vulgar became adopted by the upper crust.

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#2216445 - 01/17/14 10:42 PM Re: Themed recital: Suites [Re: jeffreyjones]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 972
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: hreichgott
Originally Posted By: carey
only two of the six movements in the Tombeau are based on Baroque dance forms - and one is based on an Italian folk dance. The remaining movements (Prelude, Fugue, Toccata) harken back to the Baroque period - but aren't dance forms.

Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes routinely appear in French Baroque suites. You're right about the other movements.


Are not Menuets, Rigaudons and Forlanes dance forms? Are you saying, "If it's a dance form, even if it's Italian, it's o.k."? (I think that's what I heard you say...)

Yes! I also support the Sarabande as part of a baroque suite, even though it is from Latin America.


It was a court dance for a couple of centuries before the time of Bach, so there is a long precedent for it. Interesting how a dance that was seen as indecent and vulgar became adopted by the upper crust.

Given enough time that happens with the most amazing things smile
I know very little about pre-Baroque dance music but at least by the time of Couperin and Rameau the forlane was a well-established form in France.
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

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New Topics - Multiple Forums
New Kawai DP & RH3 action (CN35 & CN25)
by Northerner
09/02/14 04:50 PM
Kawai MP11 firmware v1.07
by DilEcosse
09/02/14 04:24 PM
all BBCode tags are broken
by beet31425
09/02/14 03:13 PM
Write melody contrapuntally
by kobethuy
09/02/14 03:03 PM
Yamaha N2 or CLP545
by Butteman
09/02/14 02:14 PM
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