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#2216535 - 01/18/14 06:11 AM Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Here is the calculated Dirk's tuner (trial) stretch for my Kawai RX-2.


Any comments for the current tuning?

_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2216544 - 01/18/14 07:32 AM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2003
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
If ETDs are already defeating human tuners, as you so eloquently pointed out in the CM3 thread, then why even ask for comments here?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2216548 - 01/18/14 07:49 AM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Mark R.]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
If ETDs are already defeating human tuners, as you so eloquently pointed out in the CM3 thread, then why even ask for comments here?


I thought(?) Ian (withindale) and Chris has advised me to use the trial version and check the current tuning.
Maybe one of them might respond?
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2216550 - 01/18/14 08:08 AM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Hakki

Yes, there are several professionals here who use ETDs for one reason or another.

We know from several posters, including Isaac, that Dirk's tuner comes up with a good ET. On that basis anyone can see several notes on your piano are way out of tune. Do the sounds of the intervals confirm that?

My inclination would be to tune the As and Es (as provided in the trial version), attend to some or all of other notes which are out, and check again.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2216561 - 01/18/14 08:43 AM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Ian,

The trial version does not allow saving of the recording.

Also I don't/can't tune my own piano. Only very seldom I touch up a few unisons.

Currently the piano sounds quite playable, though I don't play as much as I used to, because of my elbow problem.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2216569 - 01/18/14 08:59 AM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2098
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Here is the calculated Dirk's tuner (trial) stretch for my Kawai RX-2.


Any comments for the current tuning?



Yea. I was impressed by the color scheme of the chart.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#2216729 - 01/18/14 02:46 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
The two plots match pretty well in my opinion. There is no significant trend away from each other. Maybe a few notes look questionable, but probably looks worse than it sounds because they are only about 1Hz deviation. The bass does look worse that what it is. For the bass, be aware that at A1 for example, 10 cents equals about 0.3 Hz, so you can expect more variation down there.

The green plot is only an ideal and in reality is not expected. The red plot is more realistic, especially given that your tuning is already a few months old I think, and also especially if you are only taking single string measurements with unisons slightly off. Measurements from other strings would probably give another result.

I disagree with Ian. Despite assuming that the green plot represents an acceptable stretch for your piano, there is no way of telling that notes on your piano are way out of tune from looking at the plots.


Edited by Chris Leslie (01/18/14 02:52 PM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2216780 - 01/18/14 04:52 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Chris Leslie]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Chris

Wouldn't it make sense for Hakki to play some scales and intervals to see if the notes in question seem to be in or out of tune?

Correct me if I'm wrong, or perhaps Grandpianoman will, but isn't the green plot not only the ideal but also the tuning that actually results from using Dirk's tuner?

The difference between the plots at B2 is at about 7 cents, and C3 is about 5 cents as are C#3, F3, A3, C5, E5.

Coincidentally, the notes around C3 were also relatively flat on Grandpianoman's plot of his Weber; his bass was much smoother.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2216802 - 01/18/14 05:49 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Withindale]
prout Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 787
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Chris

Wouldn't it make sense for Hakki to play some scales and intervals to see if the notes in question seem to be in or out of tune?

Correct me if I'm wrong, or perhaps Grandpianoman will, but isn't the green plot not only the ideal but also the tuning that actually results from using Dirk's tuner?

The difference between the plots at B2 is about 7 cents, and C3 is about 5 cents as are C#3, F3, A3, C5, E5.

Coincidentally, the notes around C3 were also relatively flat on Grandpianoman's plot of his Weber; his bass was much smoother.


Having used Dirk's tuner in the past, I can attest that the Green Curve is the correct calculated tuning for that particular piano. If the person tuning actually tunes (and manages to get the tuning spot on)according to Dirk's Tuner, he/she will precisely match the green curve.

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#2216821 - 01/18/14 06:25 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Withindale]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Withindale

Wouldn't it make sense for Hakki to play some scales and intervals to see if the notes in question seem to be in or out of tune?

Yes, which is a better way to judge rather than assessing from the plot.

Originally Posted By: Withindale
Correct me if I'm wrong, or perhaps Grandpianoman will, but isn't the green plot not only the ideal but also the tuning that actually results from using Dirk's tuner?

It is the ideal according to Dirk. I am not sure that the final results will so easily very closely match the green plot unless refined many times over. In practice, because of various imperfections, some notes just have no ideal spot although I am convinced that Dirk does a good job at determining a useful compromise by sampling and deciding from several partial matches.

Originally Posted By: Withindale
The difference between the plots at B2 is about 7 cents, and C3 is about 5 cents as are C#3, F3, A3, C5, E5.

7 cents at B2 is about 0.5Hz, which is not perfect but could be acceptable depending on the circumstances. Remember that it is an old tuning by now, and the B2 bi-chord may show something different for the other string.

Regardless of particular anomalies, which will always occur, the broad sweep of the red plot (stretch and balance) is similar to the "ideal" green plot.



Edited by Chris Leslie (01/18/14 06:39 PM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2216853 - 01/18/14 07:18 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
We can't play the intervals but, I hope with Hakki's blessing, we can listen to his brother Saffet playing Chopin on the piano a month ago:



The question is can the tuning be improved generally, and for the left hand in particular?

PS Switch to YouTube to set HD sound.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2217008 - 01/19/14 05:56 AM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Withindale]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Originally Posted By: Withindale
We can't play the intervals but, I hope with Hakki's blessing, we can listen to his brother Seffet playing Chopin on the piano a month ago:



And better than that, he will be recording the first movement from Chopin's Piano Concerto no.1 today on my piano. Which he will probably post on the Members Recording sub forum of the Pianist Corner.

P.S. He has already posted a version playing his Kawai KG-2 grand recorded with his iPad. But the sound quality and the tuning of that piano was not good, so he will post it again, recorded with better equipment on my (hopefully better in tune smile ) piano.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2217097 - 01/19/14 12:17 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2373
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Here is the calculated Dirk's tuner (trial) stretch for my Kawai RX-2.


Any comments for the current tuning?


Hakki, is there any way to capture on that calculated stretch the amount of deviation in cents which should be at the side of the chart? Its somewhat meaningless without this because all pianos will generally show that type of pattern.

I do quite a few RX-2's and have charts for them in RTC I could compare to yours if your interested.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2217112 - 01/19/14 12:50 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Emmery]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Emmery, to move things along, the extent of the chart is 75 cents up and down. Maximum stretch is about 26 cents bass and 30 cents treble. Is that comparable with your charts?

The chart gives a visual indication of whether the piano needs tuning (some red bars visible) or not (only green bars visible). I imagine Dirk thought that would suffice as the values behind the green bars are used in the tuning.


Edited by Withindale (01/19/14 01:36 PM)
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2217156 - 01/19/14 01:59 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Mark R.]
Hamburg-D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/13
Posts: 513
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
If ETDs are already defeating human tuners, as you so eloquently pointed out in the CM3 thread, then why even ask for comments here?


You know many of you know I'm a big fan of Dirk's and a contveresial DIYer (although not anymore, I don't attempt to be a tech on my piano anymore)

But let me tell you guys a quick story that might make some of you proud of being tech and tuners.

About a week ago I had an extremely reputable tech come to my home. I don't know if he wants his name disclosed, and if you know who he is, please don't mention his name here.

He is the tech for the Colburn School of Music and he has also worked side by side with Ron Coners at the basement in NY working on the C&A's and also teaching steinway techs who fly in from all over the United States for seminars etc...

He listened to me play for a few hours, asking me to be critical of the voicing. Asked me to stop playing where I felt the piano could do even 1% better.

Then he tuned my piano by ear, and I strongly suspect taking into account my repertoire, and everything we discussed.

His tuning was absolutely incredible! It basically made the few sections that I felt like the piano was at 99% into 110%.

After he left I analyzed his tuning with Dirk's software. He did some things with a few notes that were completely opposite of what Dirk's software recommended. Also, he stretched out the "killer octave" more than what Dirk's recommended.

The octaves were extremely clean, and in order to achieve that, I suspect he had to compromise other aspects of the intervals and stretches, but he chose to compromise things I wouldn't notice given my style of playing and repertoire.

So I don't think software beats human. Not if the tuner is extremely talented, and I do suspect many here truly are...

I tuned with Dirk's tuner the evening before he came. He said it was a better tuning than most techs would be able to do. But in some way, it's limited - it's a computer program. Ultimately it cannot defeat the understanding of a well trained human ear. That's my subjective conclusion.

PS - he also said that the piano was perfect. I don't need to tinker with it, and even though I egged him on to doing SOMETHING to voicing, he said - it's 99% perfect. If you want the extra 1%, we will risk everything. No piano is 100%.

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#2217161 - 01/19/14 02:09 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Ian,

Here is the current state of my piano as of today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akxj7vuQSPY
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2217195 - 01/19/14 03:16 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
noam, a chart like Hakki's at this stage, when the tuning is fresh, would be interesting to compare Dirk's ideal to a good aural tuning.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2217197 - 01/19/14 03:27 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Hakki]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Hakki

Say Bravo to Saffet from me please, it was great to hear the piano without the orchestra for once!

I must say Saffet rather proved Chris's point about your tuning, certainly compared to his earlier recording on the Kawai KG-2.

Noam's well told story says you everything you need to know, but I suspect you know all that already.

Dirk's tuner is also limited by a fixed set of parameters. That makes it easy for anyone to use on any piano; Grandpianoman - Weber baby grand, MWM and Prout - M&H BB, Noam - Steinway D.

Looking at the green curve for your RX-2 there appears to be some stretch in the temperament octave leading to smoother stretch in other octaves, including the killer octave. Rather than aim for clean octaves, I suspect Dirk is trying to bring out the resonances that Grandpianoman mentioned recently.

What's your next step? Are you going to chart your brother's piano too and then have a conversation with you tuner friends?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2217207 - 01/19/14 03:36 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Withindale]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 625
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Emmery, to move things along, the extent of the chart is 75 cents up and down. Maximum stretch is about 26 cents bass and 30 cents treble. Is that comparable with your charts?

The chart gives a visual indication of whether the piano needs tuning (some red bars visible) or not (only green bars visible). I imagine Dirk thought that would suffice as the values behind the green bars are used in the tuning.


But Ian , the problem is that a user will not know how far out is too far or not.

What Dirk's chart needs are error bars, or upper and lower limit curves. Such curves will spread about a cent or two either side of ideal in the middle and fan out to 7 or 8 cents either side of ideal at the ends. If the user's piano has more than a certain amount of notes outside of the error lines then the piano needs tuning.

Upper and lower curves such as this form the basis for the ARPT assessment.


Edited by Chris Leslie (01/19/14 03:37 PM)
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2217220 - 01/19/14 04:02 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Withindale]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2559
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Hakki

Say Bravo to Saffet from me please, it was great to hear the piano without the orchestra for once!

What's your next step? Are you going to chart your brother's piano too and then have a conversation with you tuner friends?


Thank you Ian, I will pass your message to him.

Well, my tuner friends are either too busy nowadays, or are not interested in discussing these matters with me, since I have not received any reply to my recent mails.

So, my brother, might probably call the Russian tuner who has last tuned my piano. His KG-2 also had a broken string in the high treble recently.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

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#2217338 - 01/19/14 07:10 PM Re: Dirks Tuner stretch for my piano [Re: Chris Leslie]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
Originally Posted By: Withindale
The chart gives a visual indication of whether the piano needs tuning (some red bars visible) or not (only green bars visible). I imagine Dirk thought that would suffice as the values behind the green bars are used in the tuning.


But Ian , the problem is that a user will not know how far out is too far or not.

What Dirk's chart needs are error bars, or upper and lower limit curves. Such curves will spread about a cent or two either side of ideal in the middle and fan out to 7 or 8 cents either side of ideal at the ends. If the user's piano has more than a certain amount of notes outside of the error lines then the piano needs tuning.

Yes, Chris, numbers like that would be useful.

The height of the green bars is about 1.5 cents so a rule of thumb could be:
1. separate red bars in the central octave (1 cent);
2. white space between green and red in octaves 3 & 5 (2 cents);
3. white space as thick as a green bar in octaves 2 & 6 (3 cents);
4. white space as thick as three green bars in octaves 1 & 7 (6 cents).

I'd imagine most users (i.e. owners) would know or learn when their pianos need tuning.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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