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#2217009 - 01/19/14 06:05 AM Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Just thought I would upload some of the songs I have been working on, in the month that I have been learning piano. (started around this time last month I think).

I haven't had any formal teaching, and haven't really been learning specific techniques or anything just yet. I just find tunes that I like and attempt to learn them. Kind of winging the finger positioning (as I have no idea what the proper technique is. Pretty sure one of the only piano/music theory terms I understand these days is octave lol).

Here's some parts of songs I have been learning. I usually switch to a different song after 30 seconds or so, in order to try something new (or I just get bored of the song).

Some of nocturne no.20 (using True Keys American VST)
http://picosong.com/kpTQ/

Morning Remembrance (casio px-150 - bright piano setting)
http://picosong.com/kWwz/

Some of Sadness and Sorrow (bright setting)
http://picosong.com/kWsu/

4/5 random parts of random songs (for some unknown reason I like using the bright piano. It doesn't sound soft or very subtle, but it feels really responsive and sharp, which I like when learning things).
http://picosong.com/kWwu/


Going to start learning some actual techniques/proper finger positioning soon. But I am really enjoying learning piano so far.

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#2217018 - 01/19/14 06:51 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3167
Loc: Northern England.
You`ve been playing by ear then. Sounds real good to me, not even considering how long you`ve been playing. It would seem your ear is your strongest asset; you have a great fun future ahead. . . so be careful as to who teaches you if you go down that path.

(I`d also stay off Chopin if I were you. Not a barrel o` laughs . . . .)
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2217100 - 01/19/14 12:21 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Brandywine, Maryland
What do you mean; been playing for 1 month? You mean you've been practicing the examples you gave for one month?

You have very nice control and coordination, too good for someone who never touched a keyboard and just began playing a month ago. You play like you understand what you're playing.

So how long have you been playing?
_________________________
Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright

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#2217116 - 01/19/14 12:56 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jaak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Tallinn, Estonia
Hi Jayden,

I completely agree with the previous postings - it seems to be unbeleavable that you just touched the piano a month ago for the first time.

Several things can be sensed as right and convincing.

Two possibilities - if you are supertalented or you have played some other instrument before or played the piano before.

Would be interesting to see a video of you playing as well.

Tell a bit more of your background, please. Would be exciting.

Best wishes,
Jaak

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#2217169 - 01/19/14 02:24 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
What's so hard to believe about my examples? None of them are particularly hard songs for beginners. Or at least they don't seem that hard. Guess it's mostly just muscle memory after repeating them over and over. The recording for nocturne no.20 was recorded the day after I started learning that. I had trouble with the different rhythms for each hand, but got the hang of it after awhile. I think the later parts of the song might be too hard, but I haven't bothered learning further yet.

I haven't played an instrument before. Could try make a video later if you want.

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#2217202 - 01/19/14 03:33 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Sweet06 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/13
Posts: 355
whatever you're doing, teach me. the nocturne you did was great!! i feel like i should be able to do it too lol
_________________________
"Doesn't practicing on the piano suck?!?!"
"The joy is in the practicing. It's like relationships. Yeah, orgasms are awesome, but you can't make love to someone who you have no relationship with!"

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#2217219 - 01/19/14 03:58 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Brandywine, Maryland
Jayden,

It's not that they are particularly hard pieces to play it's just that you play like you've been playing for at least a year. You say you haven't played an instrument before. That wouldn't matter much to me unless you're including the piano as one of those instruments as well.

There's a certain finesse to your playing that shows a level of keyboarding experience, not usually achieved for a good bit of time. It's not about hitting the right notes or even the rhythm. It's about the sheer quality in which you play that separates the absolute beginner from someone who's been at the keys for a while.

If you say you haven't touched a keyboard prior to a month ago I'll believe you. If that's true then you are one of a kind my friend. You have done very well indeed and that's a compliment but you still haven't answered the question directly:

Have you been playing, fooling around, experimenting or whatever you want to call it, longer than a month?
_________________________
Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright

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#2217221 - 01/19/14 04:02 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jaak]
CarlosCC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 1166
Loc: Lisboa, Portugal
Originally Posted By: Jaak
Hi Jayden, I completely agree with the previous postings - it seems to be unbeleavable that you just touched the piano a month ago for the first time.

+1 thumb

Congratulations and welcome to PW.
I think you'll have a bright future. I am also self-taught, so I can realize your effort. Do not forget to enjoy your journey. Have fun!
_________________________

CarlosCC records
Self-learning since 12/2009
"Don't play what's there, play what's not there."

.:: Visit the 'European Piano Party 2014 - EPP2014' thread ::.

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#2217222 - 01/19/14 04:03 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11205
Loc: Canada
One thing I wondered is whether the keyboard is touch sensitive. There is an evenness of tone, with one note as loud as the other, throughout - a keyboard without touch sensitivity would have that result.

"Winging the finger position" may actually be a good thing depending on what you are doing. If you are finding a placement for your hand and use of the fingers that is optimum, where you can move with ease, then you're getting a good kind of familiarity.

Working on only a small section (30 seconds), and getting that down pat is also a good approach. Later if you work on whole pieces, keep that approach, and work in sections, bringing them together over time.


Edited by keystring (01/19/14 04:06 PM)

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#2217247 - 01/19/14 04:42 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Brandywine, Maryland
I was listening closely to your first recording, nocturne no.20.

It's in C#m and the chord progression as how I figured it goes:

C#m F#m6/C# C#m C#m then goes major C# C# F#m F#m then the resolve: G#7 G#7 C#m F#m G#. And that's where you end it.

Sounds like it wants to go back to C#m but you ended it on G#. This is an Im IVm V progression modulation of major in the middle.

It's a beautiful piece. You should work on the rest.


Edited by RUSS SHETTLE (01/19/14 05:26 PM)
_________________________
Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright

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#2217263 - 01/19/14 05:00 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
peterws Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3167
Loc: Northern England.
"The recording for nocturne no.20 was recorded the day after I started learning that. "

I am turning green . . . . . sick Takes me a week after the piece is sort of up to scratch to even consider recording . . . . Dammit man there must be so much you can do with a brain like yours. . . .the perfect crime beckons!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes — but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2217276 - 01/19/14 05:25 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: RUSS SHETTLE]
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Brandywine, Maryland
Originally Posted By: RUSS SHETTLE
I was listening closely to your first recording, nocturne no.20.

It's in C#m and the chord progression as how I figured it goes:

C#m F#m6/C# C#m C#m then goes major C# C# F# F# then the resolve: G#7 G#7 C#m F#m G#. And that's where you end it.

Sounds like it wants to go back to C#m but you ended it on G#. This is an Im IVm V progression modulation of major in the middle.

It's a beautiful piece. You should work on the rest.


Oops! I made a mistake:

After going toe C#(Maj) twice, it goes to F#m, not major. I'll correct that in my previous post.

By the way: I play by ear to. The LH notes are what establishes the harmony and the chord progression.
_________________________
Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright

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#2217537 - 01/20/14 09:32 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
RUSS SHETTLE: Started a couple weeks before Christmas. I had a sudden urge to start playing, so I joined the forum and did some research on the best keyboards for certain price ranges. I posted a couple times sharing my thoughts about how it seemed to me like muscle memory played a large role in learning the instrument. After the keyboard arrived (and my exams finished) I started learning some pieces, and it seemed to confirm my earlier prediction.

I was also happy to find that much of the improvement seems to happen over night, rather than while you're actually playing (something might be very difficult, then the next day, after waking up, all of a sudden it was far easier). I am very interested in the dynamics behind how our brains learn things (in particular for language learning).

But no, I haven't played piano/keyboard or any instrument before. Most I have done is randomly press a key or two as I walked past a piano at a friends house or university.

Also got no idea what all of this stuff "C# C# F# F# then the resolve: G#7 G#7 C#m F#m G#" means. I know there's obviously a A-G scale thing with sharps (#?) and flats. Otherwise I am useless at the moment with these terms laugh

keystring: It is touch sensitive, I just think I am being too subtle with the velocity variation. I need to learn to start playing softer/harder when needed. Using the bright piano preset doesn't help I might add smile. I would use True Keys American for everything, but it doesn't sound all that good for many of the songs I like to learn (practically anything non classical sounds weird with TKA).

---

Thanks for all the awesome feedback everyone. Good to know that I am not failing miserably after a month.

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#2217557 - 01/20/14 10:19 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
CarlosCC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 1166
Loc: Lisboa, Portugal
First of all: I'm a beginner player and I love Chopin.

Then, I was listening with utmost attention this Chopin nocturne no.20 and I have a straight opinion regarding to it.
A beginner pianist playing Chopin is like a printer device printing a Picasso painting. I mean, the colors and the lines are exactly the same as the original but, at this level of beauty, there are much more things involved than doing a "copy/past" of the sheet.
This is the reason why I don't play Chopin. But the choice is yours, of course.
_________________________

CarlosCC records
Self-learning since 12/2009
"Don't play what's there, play what's not there."

.:: Visit the 'European Piano Party 2014 - EPP2014' thread ::.

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#2217576 - 01/20/14 11:03 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: CarlosCC]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Originally Posted By: CarlosCC
First of all: I'm a beginner player and I love Chopin.

Then, I was listening with utmost attention this Chopin nocturne no.20 and I have a straight opinion regarding to it.
A beginner pianist playing Chopin is like a printer device printing a Picasso painting. I mean, the colors and the lines are exactly the same as the original but, at this level of beauty, there are much more things involved than doing a "copy/past" of the sheet.
This is the reason why I don't play Chopin. But the choice is yours, of course.


Although, you couldn't reach that level of beauty without diving in at some point, wouldn't you think? I would think that learning the generic copy/paste blueprint is the integral part of devising your own interpretation of said blueprint.

Kind of like saying, " Flowers are my favourite thing to draw, but I can't draw a flower quite as refined as that guy, so I'll just skip flowers and come back to them later." If you want to draw perfect flowers, you need to start off by drawing some [censored] ones and change your technique slightly every time you do (by looking at other people's flowers, and learning more about drawing in general).

You could wait until you're more refined at playing piano in general, but is this not the very thing that will help you achieve that? + we learn better when we learn things of interest.

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#2217620 - 01/20/14 12:25 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
MrPozor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/11/12
Posts: 58
Loc: near Paris, France
Originally Posted By: Jayden

You could wait until you're more refined at playing piano in general, but is this not the very thing that will help you achieve that? + we learn better when we learn things of interest.


I think your point is perfectly valid but maybe not for everyone.

A more common approach would be to acknowledge that simpler pieces (original, not arrangements for easy piano) are just as interesting as more complex ones and build up your technique with those until the pieces of your dreams come within reach. Otherwise I feel like you would miss a lot of subtleties.

At least that's what I'm doing and it will be quite some time until I will touch Chopin or Rachmaninov.
_________________________
Currently learning:

Equipment: Petrof 118 L1

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#2217628 - 01/20/14 12:37 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
TheodorN Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1132
Loc: Helsingborg, Sweden
Agree with what's been said by others, very well played, Jayden, especially considering the short time you've been playing. Also agree with you on learning first to play the piece as notated, then start working on embellishing the necessary dynamics.

As someone said, when you've learned which notes to play, you've only done 30% of the work. I find, that if a piece is too complicated for my current ability, it's better for me to put it aside and find something more manageable.

I can always find many interesting songs closer to my level, but still challenging. If I try too long to work on something way beyond me, I tend to give up and not touch the piano again for many weeks! Which is not good.
_________________________
My YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/thenorbass1

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#2217646 - 01/20/14 01:04 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
CarlosCC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/06/09
Posts: 1166
Loc: Lisboa, Portugal
Originally Posted By: Jayden
Originally Posted By: CarlosCC
First of all: I'm a beginner player and I love Chopin.

Then, I was listening with utmost attention this Chopin nocturne no.20 and I have a straight opinion regarding to it.
A beginner pianist playing Chopin is like a printer device printing a Picasso painting. I mean, the colors and the lines are exactly the same as the original but, at this level of beauty, there are much more things involved than doing a "copy/past" of the sheet.
This is the reason why I don't play Chopin. But the choice is yours, of course.


Although, you couldn't reach that level of beauty without diving in at some point, wouldn't you think? I would think that learning the generic copy/paste blueprint is the integral part of devising your own interpretation of said blueprint.

Kind of like saying, " Flowers are my favourite thing to draw, but I can't draw a flower quite as refined as that guy, so I'll just skip flowers and come back to them later." If you want to draw perfect flowers, you need to start off by drawing some [censored] ones and change your technique slightly every time you do (by looking at other people's flowers, and learning more about drawing in general).

You could wait until you're more refined at playing piano in general, but is this not the very thing that will help you achieve that? + we learn better when we learn things of interest.

I see.
Jayden, I was talking about which is more common; I wasn't speaking about you. As I told before you can have a bright future.

You can reach the level you want. You can work hours/days/weeks/months/years on a piece until you feel satisfied with it. The point is: where is your starting point? IMO we (beginners) have to balance between our desire to play the piece of our dreams, and the effort needed to play that piece.

I don't know what is your musical background. I don't know if you are a perfectionist, or not. I don't know if you are a genius. But, I think you may loose the best of the journey if you focus on a certain piece above your capabilities.

I don't play Chopin. Yet. IMO he is the master degree for a pianist.
But I'll play it when I feel that I have the minimum technique to do it. Also, and leveraging the example of the "flower", I want to paint it at my own way, not as the others paint it, and to reach that point I need to grow as a pianist and, mainly, as human being.
_________________________

CarlosCC records
Self-learning since 12/2009
"Don't play what's there, play what's not there."

.:: Visit the 'European Piano Party 2014 - EPP2014' thread ::.

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#2217663 - 01/20/14 01:33 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
RUSS SHETTLE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/11
Posts: 271
Loc: Brandywine, Maryland
Jayden,

You've got a raw as well as rare natural talent in the way you're able to play and more importantly, hear and duplicate the music you hear. Even if you had a year's worth of keyboarding experience along with some basic theoretical knowledge I would still be just as impressed with your ability to hear.

Music can be theorized, written and analyzed but the only real thing about music is the music itself and that's what you are naturally and totally connect to.

Where you take it from here is your business but what you've shown already is bigger than what you may realize. It's HUGE!
_________________________
Russ
Yamaha CP5
Casio PX130
Yamaha AP Upright

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#2218024 - 01/21/14 06:13 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
kaanguner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/05/13
Posts: 38
Jayden I'm too kind a new with only 6 months (with 8 weeks of staying away first two weeks) and I must stay discipline is everything. You have to keep touching it. You have a great touch with the piano. I don't know what digital piano or what keyboard you are using but what you play with plays a huge role too. If you can get a well made instrument to play.

A method book would be nice. Because after a certain stage it's starting become troublesome learning the pieces from youtube synthesia. Horizontal way of showing synthesia kills the timings for me and vertical staff sheet is 10 times better for reading the timing of the notes.

Another thing I must say is to there is an excel file out there which lists the classical pieces according to their level. That is a god-given thing. While learning from a method book you might want to keep playing the pieces you like it according to that list. Because some people's technique level is well beyond their theory capabilities. I think I am one of those people so it really is boring when you stuck with your theory's level. So I would encourage you to learn new pieces while studying theory.
I will start learning this piece today and in a month or two I suggest you might want to try it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re-eu9q_yUU

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#2218045 - 01/21/14 07:39 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Kaanguner, I agree with everything you said. As for synthesia/sheets, it wouldn't really matter in my opinion. Just learn the notes and then listen to the song a couple times and mimic the timing, or change it a bit.

Do you have a link to that excel file you were talking about?

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#2218289 - 01/21/14 03:50 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
earlofmar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/21/13
Posts: 1125
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Jayden



Do you have a link to that excel file you were talking about?


here is a link to that spreadsheet mentioned
_________________________
I thought I understood endurance sport; then I took up piano
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#2218603 - 01/22/14 05:08 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Wow, that's an amazing list. Thanks for that.

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#2218771 - 01/22/14 12:37 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
piano_deb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 787
Loc: Memphis, TN
Originally Posted By: Jayden
Kaanguner, I agree with everything you said. As for synthesia/sheets, it wouldn't really matter in my opinion. Just learn the notes and then listen to the song a couple times and mimic the timing, or change it a bit.

Welcome to PW, Jayden. I think that you might want to reconsider your approach for the sake of your *continued* progress with the piano. Playing by ear and mimicry may work for you now, but won’t help you develop the technical skills and musical understanding to interpret Chopin and other masters.

If you wish to focus on classical music -- and do more than mimic other performances while guessing at the timing, fingering, etc. -- you should seriously consider a more traditional path. I recommend working with a teacher who can help you avoid injury, incorrect technique, etc. and provide a good grounding in musical theory – but there are also method books and other tools for the self-taught student that might suit you better since you seem to be a DIY kind of guy. smile

Btw, as Kuunguner pointed out, Synthesia/you tube videos can help to a degree – but learning to sightread music is a far more effective, powerful tool that will support your entire musical future. To toss off the statement that choosing one over the other wouldn’t really matter to you makes me think you haven’t really investigated the options open to you. I encourage you to try different learning tools – and use the ones that will help you truly develop as a musician.
_________________________
Deborah
Charles Walter 1500
Happiness is a shiny red piano.

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#2218775 - 01/22/14 12:52 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Don't worry. I already purchased both 'fundamental keys' and 'Alfreds 1' a couple days ago.

I intend to work my way through those and learn what I need to learn.

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#2218812 - 01/22/14 01:52 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
piano_deb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/05
Posts: 787
Loc: Memphis, TN
Glad to hear it, Jayden. Both of those have very strong fans here, so you should find plenty of help if needed.

I'm looking forward to hearing more of your playing in the future!
_________________________
Deborah
Charles Walter 1500
Happiness is a shiny red piano.

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#2218817 - 01/22/14 02:04 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Yeah that's why I picked those two. Thanks for the suggestions in the previous comment smile

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#2218993 - 01/22/14 05:22 PM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Amaruk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 795
Loc: New England, USA
Welcome to PW Jayden!

I agree with the others that you are one of a kind! Your playing is fantastic considering you just started out.


What I find interesting is your comment regarding your examples:

Originally Posted By: Jayden
What's so hard to believe about my examples? None of them are particularly hard songs for beginners. Or at least they don't seem that hard.


You seem to be completely unaware of your own raw skill as those examples are not beginner level pieces at all. Did you learn them by ear (thru listening only)? What ever you are doing I hope that you can keep it up and that you share your progress with us here on PW.
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My latest piano cover on YouTube: Yann Tiersen - Mother's Journey

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#2219301 - 01/23/14 07:56 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Most of those I didn't learn that way. That would be practically genius lol.

A question though. I started learning this today (about half way through, it picks up in the second half which I am about to start on):

Locke'd Out Again (composed by: Michael Giacchino):

http://picosong.com/Y3Me/

I have trouble quickly moving my hands to positions that require me pressing 3/4 (mostly 4) notes at once on one hand. For example, it's an octave, but with 2 notes somewhere in between. In there any specific trick in order to help you quickly move to these positions, or is it just a result of muscle memory through repeating over and over? I say this because the last 10% of the song is pretty heavy on these.

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#2255793 - 04/02/14 06:50 AM Re: Been playing for 1 month. Feedback welcome [Re: Jayden]
Jayden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/13
Posts: 85
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Been like 3.5 months now. Wanted to update with a piece I am in the midst of learning, arranged (and played far better than I will probably ever play it haha) by Kyle Landry (composed by Hans Zimmer).

Up to a certain point in the song (the harder portion of the song, and believe me it's taken a lot of effort for me to be able to reliably do the hard portions) and I am having problems. Mainly with the fact that the bass is completely overpowering everything (in the last minute of the video). It's probably getting muddy because I haven't bothered learning how to use the pedal properly yet, so I am just holding it down. Is this definitely a problem that could be solved by refreshing the sustain pedal from time to time? (and if so, when...).

It's just the faster middle part that gets muddy. The beginning isn't muddy and the end portion (which I have learned, just not in this example) isn't muddy.

http://picosong.com/eNXN/

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