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#2218323 - 01/21/14 04:27 PM V Piano Successor anytime soon?
Mta88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/13
Posts: 775
Loc: Trinidad and Tobago
I was curious about this.

Considering ,, and i stress,,, considering, a used roland V piano.. The prices aren't that bad for used at all. Little dent here and there but if it works it works smile


But it would really suck if a new generation is released..(I'm thinking that it now has an "outdated" action due to the RD800)

The particular feature that I personally find lacking in Digital pianos is the presence of force feedback on the piano keys.

I for one think this greatly adds to the realism and the feeling of playing a real acoustic piano.

What do you think guys? Are they gonna release a successor or are they gonna abandon the modelling project altogether.
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#2218324 - 01/21/14 04:31 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
Mta88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/13
Posts: 775
Loc: Trinidad and Tobago
Also considering abandoning the idea of another digital and going Acoustic... Particularly the Pearl River P6 upright piano..

So there is that..

Only came across the cheaper used models of the V piano on musicianfriend.com

It got me thinking.

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.
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#2218361 - 01/21/14 05:30 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
Vid Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 772
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Given your current set of gear why not add an acoustic to the mix?

Are you free to play an acoustic piano whenever you wish? What kind of music are you into?
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Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

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#2218371 - 01/21/14 05:39 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 378
Loc: Poland
I see no point in producing the V-piano successor. It's... you know... kinda strange thing since the begging. I never really understood, why they put the V-piano in a horribly expensive stage piano, with purpose to serve as a piano mailny, and in the 4 times more expensive V-grand.

I think the V itself wasn't good financialy for the Roland as a project.
Why the heck they did not put this into a normal console cabinet? This would be killer for all other competitore in the highest price range. But you can only have this technology with ugly V-grand, which looks like synth from '60 or with V-grand.

There is no point for Roland, to sell more the V-piano. To expensive and to unpractical and ugly for normal users, to less of practicality for gigging musicians. For studios with a lot of spare cash it was good I think. Just I cannot see the right target for this product anymore, when we have better and better piano samples in normal pianos, as well Pianoteq.

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#2218439 - 01/21/14 07:27 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
MacMacMac Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3763
Loc: North Carolina
I have to agree. It sits in a small and narrow market. And what exactly would they do to it that would justify another model?

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#2218442 - 01/21/14 07:39 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8822
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I believe one purpose of the V-Piano/V-Piano Grand was to create a top-tier, flagship model that could be later used to elevate the profile (and desirability) of Roland's bread-and-butter models.

The 'SuperNatural' marketing makes strong references to the V-Piano, giving consumers the impression that the technology in their entry-level F20 is closely related to the V's physically modelled sound.

In this sense, I believe the V-Piano concept has served its purpose, and has arguably been a success - even if the number of instruments sold has been relatively small.

James
x
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#2218447 - 01/21/14 07:51 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Vid]
Mta88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/13
Posts: 775
Loc: Trinidad and Tobago
Originally Posted By: Vid
Given your current set of gear why not add an acoustic to the mix?

Are you free to play an acoustic piano whenever you wish? What kind of music are you into?


Unfortunately i don't have access to an acoustic...

Judging from the feedback here i think it best to go the route of the acoustic.. Wanted one since i was 6..

I'm surprised myself that roland chose to leave the V piano as a Top tier product.. Even if they lowered their prices just a little, It would have flooded the market i think.

at 86 pounds tho it sucks for gigging.

A console edition would have made more sense.

Oh well. Maybe they will eventually do a price cut. Modelling is exciting technology.
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#2218463 - 01/21/14 08:27 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
Vid Offline
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Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 772
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
I phrased that question badly.

I meant to say IF you got an acoustic is your living situation such that you are free to play it more or less whenever you want. For many including myself an acoustic piano is not a viable option because of apartment living/neighbors etc.

One of the biggest draws for a digital piano is the ability to play it at lower volume or with headphones. Even at regular volume the sound does not carry in the same way that a real piano does.

I haven't really experienced the modelling on the V-piano though I've tried out a few models on a store floor. You can also try pianoteq if you're interested in that technology.
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#2218473 - 01/21/14 08:47 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Vid]
Mta88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/13
Posts: 775
Loc: Trinidad and Tobago
Originally Posted By: Vid
I phrased that question badly.

I meant to say IF you got an acoustic is your living situation such that you are free to play it more or less whenever you want. For many including myself an acoustic piano is not a viable option because of apartment living/neighbors etc.

One of the biggest draws for a digital piano is the ability to play it at lower volume or with headphones. Even at regular volume the sound does not carry in the same way that a real piano does.

I haven't really experienced the modelling on the V-piano though I've tried out a few models on a store floor. You can also try pianoteq if you're interested in that technology.



I live in a house. Free to play most of the time except at night. smile
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#2218608 - 01/22/14 05:41 AM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1717
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The V- Piano's main technology for sound reproduction was the SN behavior modelling engine that when applied to samples rather then the V's VA generated sound (which was developed from Roland's SAS about 20 years ago)forms the basis for all recent Roland piano voices. The V itself was a expensive one trick pony that was useless as a stage piano, useless as a home piano and pretty much a complete commercial flop BUT .... it was a real instrument as opposed to a sampled instrument and pointed the way forward in a lot of areas. I don't think Roland will replace the V ever they will just discontinue it and abandon that segment of the market (the main problem was the segment never existed in the first place) but the next generation of Roland piano technology will owe plenty to the V.
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#2218649 - 01/22/14 08:57 AM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Dr Popper]
Hookxs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 247
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
... abandon that segment of the market (the main problem was the segment never existed in the first place)...

I don't think this is entirely true. I for one would serisouly consider buying V if it were priced reasonably, which it isn't. If Roland now decided to create a dedicated "piano" board and put the full featured V grand technology + current SN patches into a single piano, combined with their top of the line action, I think we would see a lot of buyers from this site. IF it were priced like its competitors (CP4, MP10, RD 800).
It is interesting that Physis guys made the same decision to market their product as ultra expensive one trick pony, probably even less convincing than the V piano.

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#2218663 - 01/22/14 09:20 AM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Hookxs]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4739
Originally Posted By: Hookxs
I for one would serisouly consider buying V if it were priced reasonably, which it isn't. If Roland now decided to create a dedicated "piano" board and put the full featured V grand technology + current SN patches into a single piano, combined with their top of the line action, I think we would see a lot of buyers from this site. IF it were priced like its competitors (CP4, MP10, RD 800).
It is interesting that Physis guys made the same decision to market their product as ultra expensive one trick pony, probably even less convincing than the V piano.

I've written before about this, but to recap - the V-Piano (& V-Piano Grand, even more so) will never appeal to the usual DP users. It was designed for one purpose only - to appeal to those who want an acoustic piano substitute, i.e. a DP that feels and plays like one.

Anyone equating the technology required to achieve this as just another 'upgrade', like CP4 from its predecessor, or RD 800 from its predecessor, won't ever be a potential customer of the V - why would anyone want to buy a mere 'upgrade' which weighs a ton and has nothing but piano sounds? No synth, no harpsichord, no organ, zilch.

With no competition on the horizon (unless Physis gets proper distribution - at present, it's about as visible as a unicorn - and lowers its price to a realistic level to compete), there's no reason for the V not to go on and on as the only modelled DP around, and therefore truly unique in its playability and response for a pianist (as opposed to DP player or keyboardist).

After three years of owning one, I've not found any other DP that comes remotely close to emulating the essentials of an acoustic piano, that I can forget that I'm not playing a real piano. Every other DP I've tried (which are all the top-tier ones apart from the Physis, which remains elusive) reminds me that I'm playing a box of computer trickery within minutes, if not seconds - whether in its artificial sustain, or unrealistic touch response, or obvious ceiling in its range of tone colour and dynamic range. I don't even miss not playing on an acoustic, ever since I got the V.

That's not something I can say of any other DP.

And that's why, if I was looking for a new DP today, the V-Piano would still be my choice - in fact, my only choice, even at its present price.

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#2218688 - 01/22/14 10:47 AM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 358
Loc: Dorset, England
If the RD 800 is a genuinely better keyboard action than the RD 700 it will be better than the V.

Therefore I would expect the V to get the same action as the RD 800 at some point.

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#2218782 - 01/22/14 01:05 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: bennevis]
StarvingLion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/13
Posts: 226
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: Hookxs
I for one would serisouly consider buying V if it were priced reasonably, which it isn't. If Roland now decided to create a dedicated "piano" board and put the full featured V grand technology + current SN patches into a single piano, combined with their top of the line action, I think we would see a lot of buyers from this site. IF it were priced like its competitors (CP4, MP10, RD 800).
It is interesting that Physis guys made the same decision to market their product as ultra expensive one trick pony, probably even less convincing than the V piano.

I've written before about this, but to recap - the V-Piano (& V-Piano Grand, even more so) will never appeal to the usual DP users. It was designed for one purpose only - to appeal to those who want an acoustic piano substitute, i.e. a DP that feels and plays like one.

Anyone equating the technology required to achieve this as just another 'upgrade', like CP4 from its predecessor, or RD 800 from its predecessor, won't ever be a potential customer of the V - why would anyone want to buy a mere 'upgrade' which weighs a ton and has nothing but piano sounds? No synth, no harpsichord, no organ, zilch.

With no competition on the horizon (unless Physis gets proper distribution - at present, it's about as visible as a unicorn - and lowers its price to a realistic level to compete), there's no reason for the V not to go on and on as the only modelled DP around, and therefore truly unique in its playability and response for a pianist (as opposed to DP player or keyboardist).

After three years of owning one, I've not found any other DP that comes remotely close to emulating the essentials of an acoustic piano, that I can forget that I'm not playing a real piano. Every other DP I've tried (which are all the top-tier ones apart from the Physis, which remains invisible) reminds me that I'm playing a box of computer trickery within minutes, if not seconds - whether in its artificial sustain, or unrealistic touch response, or obvious ceiling in its range of tone colour and dynamic range. I don't even miss not playing on an acoustic, ever since I got the V.

That's not something I can say of any other DP.

And that's why, if I was looking for a new DP today, the V-Piano would still be my choice - in fact, my only choice, even at its present price.


But you fail to address the keyboardist's latest "just like the real thing!" fad: the software piano (eg Ivory II American D and the Pianoteq)

bennevis: "...for the V not to go on and on as the only modelled DP around"

But its not the only modeled DP around. Pianoteq supposedly is the same thing and the [cough cough] experts keep telling us that the general purpose computer and associated interface does not create any problems in regards to matching the V's realism.

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#2218804 - 01/22/14 01:34 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Hookxs]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3485
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Hookxs
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
... abandon that segment of the market (the main problem was the segment never existed in the first place)...

I don't think this is entirely true. I for one would serisouly consider buying V if it were priced reasonably, which it isn't.


I agree, it's a matter of pricing with Roland. Roland has invested a great deal in its "V" instruments. It's not just the V-piano. There are V-everythings from Roland. They are not about to abandon this line of products. I predict another V-piano will eventually come out. Maybe they have tweaked the modelling a bit to improve the treble notes. Most likely they are still working on that - there's no doubt that if they can ever fully crack the code of piano modelling, the world will be their oyster. Sampling would cease to be relevant if modelling was good enough. The next V-piano will have their latest action too, of course. I see it as a matter of time. Roland has stuck with their V-instruments for over a decade. The V-piano is still a vital cog in that wheel - regardless of whether it sells a lot.

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#2218807 - 01/22/14 01:44 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
brooster Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/13
Posts: 55
Loc: Tennessee
A similar thing happened with Yamaha's VL1 and VL70m Physical Modeling synths. They are out of production now with little hope of any follow ups.
I play wind controllers and I would love to see Yamaha and Roland keep improving their V products.
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#2218835 - 01/22/14 02:32 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
StarvingLion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/13
Posts: 226
"I agree, it's a matter of pricing with Roland"

Which is just another way of stating that "it doesn't sound or look like an acoustic piano so why am I paying the same price!"

You can tout its playability all day long but as soon as you play a scale, you are immediately aware its a synth and not a piano. Vintage A, Vintage B...what the heck is that anyways? You can play around with the parameters for an eon and it still has the same synthetic sound.

Its enormously heavy, eats electricity like it costs nothing....and it has nothing to do with SN.

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#2218840 - 01/22/14 02:35 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: StarvingLion]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3485
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: StarvingLion
"I agree, it's a matter of pricing with Roland"

Which is just another way of stating that "it doesn't sound or look like an acoustic piano so why am I paying the same price!"

You can tout its playability all day long but as soon as you play a scale, you are immediately aware its a synth and not a piano. Vintage A, Vintage B...what the heck is that anyways? You can play around with the parameters for an eon and it still has the same synthetic sound.

Its enormously heavy, eats electricity like it costs nothing....and it has nothing to do with SN.


I didn't tout anything. I just said that Roland is committed to its "V" range of modelling products. They continue to develop them, they want them to get better.

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#2218846 - 01/22/14 02:44 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
brooster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/13
Posts: 55
Loc: Tennessee
Here's a 2014 video of the V-Grand Piano:

V-Grand Piano
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#2218862 - 01/22/14 02:56 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
Cmin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/19/13
Posts: 218
Loc: Swabia
That was funny. From the features it sounds like the FP-80 (except for that trunk full of speakers). wink

ps: Could you hear that amusing music in the background of the video?
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#2218868 - 01/22/14 03:06 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
brooster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/13
Posts: 55
Loc: Tennessee
That music in the background while they are trying to sell a $20,000.00 piano was goofy.
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#2218970 - 01/22/14 04:50 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
Mta88 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/24/13
Posts: 775
Loc: Trinidad and Tobago
I agree with the above posts as pricing being the major issue.

Used the vpiano can go for the same price as the rd800 if you don't care about a little cosmetic blemishes.

I could see some folks preferring a more realistic feel , especially those who play classical piano vs a more realistic sound.

Software pianos are very realistic in sound. Feel not so much.
Can very well be due to poor calibration on my part.
The ghs action isn't exactly top of the line either. I suspect this may be the culprit.

New tech is always priced ridiculous. Maybe gen 2 if they are working on it will be priced more competitively. If not, I guess pianoteq will lead the way for modeling for the future.
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#2218998 - 01/22/14 05:30 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 710
Originally Posted By: Mta88
at 86 pounds tho it sucks for gigging.


Has anyone questioned why it ways 86 lbs?

Is the V-technology mother boards heavy?

They put the action in the 700NX, which weighs less.

The V does one thing, why does it need such a large footprint?

Did Roland think the oversized box will justify the cost?
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#2219002 - 01/22/14 05:41 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: 36251]
StarvingLion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/13
Posts: 226
Originally Posted By: 36251
Originally Posted By: Mta88
at 86 pounds tho it sucks for gigging.


Has anyone questioned why it ways 86 lbs?

Is the V-technology mother boards heavy?

They put the action in the 700NX, which weighs less.

The V does one thing, why does it need such a large footprint?

Did Roland think the oversized box will justify the cost?


An even better question is why this:

RD800 Power Consumption: 12 Watts
V-Piano Power Consumption: 27 Watts

Why the huge difference? How can V-Piano be SN based if it surely must have completely different electronics?

27 Watts??? Unless the thing fries up burgers, what is going on?

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#2219011 - 01/22/14 05:51 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: StarvingLion]
brooster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/13
Posts: 55
Loc: Tennessee
"27 Watts??? Unless the thing fries up burgers, what is going on?"
Starvingcat = dimwit.
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#2219018 - 01/22/14 06:05 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4739
Let's be clear - the V-Piano sound generation isn't SN.

All you have to do is to play a Roland SN and the V side-by-side. Disregarding the actual sound differences, you don't get quite the feeling in the SN of the 'connectivity', the sensation that you have unlimited range of dynamics and tone colour at your disposal, limited only by your own playing, nor the 'playability' (for want of a better term) of the V. While the SN is streets ahead in realism of response compared to Yamaha's and Kawai's equivalent offerings (especially in its decay response), there's still a limitation to how far you can push it, a ceiling to its fff etc, that gives the game away when you explore the extremes of its dynamic and tonal range.

With the V, you can go on and on: pound it hard enough, and you'll get an ugly, strident sound, just like on an acoustic ("going through the tone"). In some music, the composer demands precisely this. On SN DPs, there's a definite limitation.

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#2219019 - 01/22/14 06:07 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1542
Loc: Portugal
27 watts is still poucinho. The higher consumption, such as it is, is probably due to the massive amounts of constant computation going on with the modelling process. Compare this to the CPUs in computers which get very, very hot - so hot they need one or two very good fans on them or they'd burn up in a few seconds. That's using a heck of a lot of energy.
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#2219038 - 01/22/14 06:37 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: Mta88]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yes, the power consumption is natural due to the higher processor use but its weight is a good question. One would expect it to weigh just about the same as an FP7F. Had to be constructed heavier to accomodate a heat sink for the processor maybe?


Edited by gvfarns (01/22/14 06:38 PM)

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#2219046 - 01/22/14 06:49 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: bennevis]
HisKidd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 189
Loc: AL/USA
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Let's be clear - the V-Piano sound generation isn't SN.

All you have to do is to play a Roland SN and the V side-by-side. Disregarding the actual sound differences, you don't get quite the feeling in the SN of the 'connectivity', the sensation that you have unlimited range of dynamics and tone colour at your disposal, limited only by your own playing, nor the 'playability' (for want of a better term) of the V. While the SN is streets ahead in realism of response compared to Yamaha's and Kawai's equivalent offerings (especially in its decay response), there's still a limitation to how far you can push it, a ceiling to its fff etc, that gives the game away when you explore the extremes of its dynamic and tonal range.

With the V, you can go on and on: pound it hard enough, and you'll get an ugly, strident sound, just like on an acoustic ("going through the tone"). In some music, the composer demands precisely this. On SN DPs, there's a definite limitation.


Bennevis…
It's interesting that the new RD-800 contains a sample of the V-Piano. Guess that sample would be SN sound on the 800?
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#2219058 - 01/22/14 07:08 PM Re: V Piano Successor anytime soon? [Re: HisKidd]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4739
Originally Posted By: HisKidd

Bennevis…
It's interesting that the new RD-800 contains a sample of the V-Piano. Guess that sample would be SN sound on the 800?

I haven't seen the RD-800 yet, much less played one.

But I don't know what a 'sample' of the V means, as there are no samples in the V: all the sound is generated from scratch, which is what modelling is all about. Perhaps it just means that the basic sound somewhat resembles one of the preset sounds of the V.

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