Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Pedaling Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C-sharp minor

Hey all. I need some advice regarding pedaling this famous prelude.

First off, I'm trying to decide what's the best way to pedal the nightmarish middle section. Should I pedal once each bar? My former teacher said she thinks she used to pedal on each beat, so four times each bar, but she's unsure. Is this best? Maybe there's a different method?

Also, I haven't had my Yamaha G3 for too long (about 7 months now), and I heard from a forum long ago that there was technique for this piece specifically involving the middle pedal on grand pianos that is used to sustain notes on the lower registers during the opening section. Anybody know this specific technique and how to execute it properly? I would imagine it involved sustaining the C#, G#, etc. How about the damper pedal? Should I use it in the opening section and towards the end, or is it preferable to not used it all? Or is this personal preference?

Lastlt, does anybody have any tips on how to practice the middle section other than the traditional slow/staccato practice? It's coming along nicely; however, I still feel a bit sloppy as I increase tempo.

Thoughts?

The sostenuto pedal is the middle pedal. On an upright, it is the "miscellaneous" pedal and does whatever the manufacturer thought would be useful. On a grand, it takes the dampers that are currently raised, and holds them up regardless of whether you let go of the key. That means if you press a low C#, then press and hold the sostenuto pedal, then take your hand off the C#, the C# will continue to sound until you let go of the pedal. It is very useful with any piece where you have far-apart sustained notes, and with any piece where some note needs to be held and meanwhile you want to play other notes staccato.

Of course damper pedal is also appropriate with this piece. Experiment and see what pedaling choices sound good to you. Use caution when combining the damper pedal and sostenuto -- since the damper pedal raises all the dampers, if it's down when you press the sostenuto pedal down, then the sost will just hold all the dampers up (since it "knows" what dampers are up, not which keys are pressed) thereby behaving exactly the same as the damper pedal. Pressing sost first then damper will give the desired results.

Ha, I just worked this out yesterday for the middle section with my teacher. I'm pedaling twice a measure for the most part (or half pedaling, anything to keep it from sounding muddy), and then when it starts to descend in the middle for three measures (F#, E, D-nat, C#; D-nat C# B, A; A, G#, F#, E) for me the only way to keep that well articulated is to pedal four times per measure.

The rest is pretty straight forward.

And no, I didn't find any other way to get the tempo up other than to play it slow and alternate with staccato play. I did a lot of deliberately excessive arm rotation so I wouldn't seize up, plaster my elbow to my side and start stabbing at the notes as I'm wont to do when I feel like the speed is challenging, and then as I gained stable smoothness, began to reduce the arm movement so it was nice and efficient.

I'm not done with this section yet. I still have a hard time not rushing/seizing/falling apart as it climaxes, but the descending triplets are fine.

It's reliably at around 70bpm, half note to the click, and often very nice at around 80, but not solidly, haha.

I've been working on it for a while and because this is probably the fastest piece I've ever had to play with such difficult dynamics, it really took me a long, long time. But I'm hopeful that in a couple of weeks I can proudly put it in the "done for now" pile.

I abandoned the sostenuto method, though I really wanted to take that pedal out for a spin. I was happier with the regular pedal and using it more variably (skimming off, half pedaling, full pedaling) rather than fooling around with the sostenuto pedal.

I did manage to figure out how to use the sostenuto with the regular pedal in order to truly sustain the bottom note, it's just I didn't like what it sounded like once I did!

Pedaling technique depends on the piano; some pianos have longer sustains, for example, so would need more frequent pedaling. Listen to the sound and you will see the most rapid improvement in your skill.


I press the middle pedal down, followed quickly by the damper pedal. Then I lift and re-press the damper pedal every time the chord changes.

The important thing here is to note the two melodies going on, the one below, and the one above. The middle pedal takes care of the one below, the right pedal takes care of the one above. Try to manipulate them both in a way that the listener can feel both melodies.



You'll see the quickest improvement here by working on your finger speed and technique generally. There are many ways to do so, but I suggest either doing a warmup, before playing anything else, of the first 20 or 30 exercises of Hannon (bonus if you do them in a different key every day), or checking out Cortot's method.

So, I went on youtube to check out various people playing it and to see if the video showed either their feet or the dampers. I still haven't gotten far but I was posting to say...oh my goodness. My middle section is not enormously slower than the piece should ultimately go.

I really thought there was NO POSSIBLE WAY I would ever play this thing at any thing other than a "aww, isn't it sweet how hard she tries" speed, but I may have mostly gotten where I want it. My sense was that now that I have it kind of down, we would now begin the task of bringing in the speed, but for the most part, it's already there.

There's an enormous sound difference between me and, say, well, just about anybody on youtube who is on a Real Stage playing a Big Piano, but that's...ok.

Anyway, just thought I'd share my epiphany for the day: speed will come. Practice makes perfect (or, at least, within spitting distance of competent).

If I don't choke for the red light, I may record this and show you guys. Not because I think I can play it better than any of you, but because I'm proud of how far I'VE come.

I really appreciate seeing this thread right now. My teacher thinks I'm ready to start working on this piece and he's tentatively planning to start me on it next month. I'm curious to know how long ago each of you started on this piece. I realize we each have different backgrounds, etc. however, I find it interesting to learn how much time individuals take to work on their music.

Would you mind sharing that information? Also, do you have any tips for me as I first get started working on this piece? Thanks!

I do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj4LuE87RSg

(this is me)

Rachmaninoff's piano at that time was almost certainly something with two pedals. It could have been any make, as it was 19th Century Russia, but it was most likely to have been a Bechstein or Bluthner. Rachmaninoff was known to have used a Bluthner, and owned a Bluthner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sergei_Rachmaninoff,_1910s.jpg

So there was no sostenuto involved.

OK, but it DOES depend on the tone of the piano, if it has a thick sound if you like, you're gonna want to pedal more often. If it has a lighter sound, you can pedal less frequently.

Nice playing.

If you do decide to use the sostenuto (middle) pedal, be sure you work it out so you could play it either way: with and without. It can be a finicky beast, and it's not uncommon for them not to work as well as they should. Obviously a piano tuned and regulated for the concert stage should be fine. But you never know whether or not you'll be playing on a really fine instrument or on a farm tractor.

You may have to switch to a single-pedal scheme unexpectedly.

Yeah, the middle pedal can be unreliable on some instruments. It's so seldom used that many manufacturers didn't bother until perhaps the last ten or 20 years. Steinway Hamburg have actually stopped putting it on their uprights - they were fitting them all with sostenuto for a while but the recent models don't have it.

Bechstein, Bluthner and Bosendorfer weren't putting it on as standard until the 90s, as far as I'm aware. Yamaha started it a little bit earlier than that. It used to be that most of the pianos for export to the USA would have it, and some of the concert grands would have it, but it never became popular outside of the USA until fairly recently.

Incidentally, when rebuilding a piano that has two pedals, it can be retrofitted with a sostenuto but it's a pain in the neck, and needs some tweaking on the back action, so it can make things awkward for future technicians to regulate it, and many times you need to fit a new lyre as well - which isn't a major issue I guess.

thanks.

That piano is an old Bluthner, a bit worn out, a concert grand with two pedals. The action is so light, I imagine that's what Horowitz piano felt like, but it does need work.

Last time I played this piece (semi-formally) for an audience, I'd practised on my digital at home using the sostenuto, which of course worked perfectly, the way it was supposed to. I knew the piano I'd be playing on was a 6-foot C.Bechstein grand, so I'd assumed it would have a sostenuto pedal.

To my surprise and (almost) shock, when I got there, it only had two pedals. And I was given no practice time on it, so I just had to rethink my pedaling on the fly. And keep my left foot firmly on the floor, otherwise I might inadvertently mix up my una corda and sostenuto pedaling.

Since then, whenever I'm practising any piece for a recital, I don't use the sostenuto pedal at all.....

- a few times in other pieces I've worked out some sostenuto stuff, and the piano has had a sostenuto, and it just hasn't worked!

Wait a minute. You went to play a concert and all the hall had was a 6-foot Bechstein with two pedals??? And you didn't bother to check beforehand?

It wasn't a formal concert - just a charity thing for colleagues and acquaintances and their friends, which I do occasionally. I was told that the piano was a decent one, and I was OK with it when I was told it was a 6-foot C.Bechstein grand and had just been tuned, though I hadn't seen it .

In any case, I'm used to coping with all sorts of pianos (it never takes me more than a few minutes to adjust), so I didn't think of checking it out first - it was a one-hour drive to get there. Actually, I quite enjoy being let loose on a good piano that I've never seen or played before - just as long as the audience aren't made up of music critics .

That's why you should always check first.

But that would ruin the element of surprise and spontaneity .

BTW, that pedal 'problem' wasn't the worst I'd experienced in a recital. Once, I stepped in at short notice for a similar event, and discovered that the piano (a small K.Kawai grand, almost brand new), was raised a few inches higher than I'm used to, with the effect that its pedals were very high off the floor (probably because of its wheels). I rapidly discovered that my calves were stretched to their limit if I tried to pedal with my heels resting on the floor (I always wear flat, comfortable shoes - never high heels ) . The pain forced me to abandon the una corda pedal within a few minutes. And then, I subjected poor Mozart and Beethoven to next-to-no pedal (Glenn Gould would have approved, no doubt), and Chopin, Schumann and Rachmaninov to almost continuous pedal......

Next time, I brought my Yellow Pages with me to use as a foot rest. You live and learn......

Oh, Deere!

Haha, that happened to me too, when I was playing at a wedding of a friend. Things had to start within a minute or two, and I tried to find a book or something , but there wasn't time. Also, entertainingly, when I was frantically asking people for a book or something and explained the situation, everybody responded with thoughts of, "But it's a piano and you play the piano! You should be able to play it fine!" When I finished, I felt like I had run a stadium using just my right leg!