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I've just posted on my blog about playing outside of chord changes.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2014/01/jazz-piano-going-outside.html

The post has examples from and explanations of Charlie Parker, Paul Bley (from his All The Things You Are solo with Sonny Rollins and Coleman Hawkins), Herbie Hancock, and John Coltrane. A longer post about only the Paul Bley ATTYA solo is in the works.

nice article mark.
a + for the "theme of the eulipions" that's a kickass track

Thanx KlInkKlonk! I'm totally w/you on Eulipions!

HH was very brave to superimpose the F#7 over a F maj 7 chord !

Wouldn't it be incredible to attend a Paul Bley or Steve Coleman masterclass on playing free/out ?!

In this promotional on a Steve Coleman masterclass
http://www.jazzspeaks.org/steve-coleman-presents/

he says “You’re just looking at the same thing from a different angle, holding up a magnifying glass to see why things work and why they don’t."

Cus, that's a great link!

Hi Mark
For your last Paul Bley example could you say that he's approaching the C7 via a half step above ?
So the first 3 notes suggest C# maj 7, and the next 3 notes suggest C# min ?

Hi Cus,

Yes of course you could say that.

On the blog, so I can work with the biggest and simplest explanation that' why I say it's a scale that works over C7 and PB has stretched it back over the Abmaj7.

IF you break it down as you've suggested - which again, you can do - then you've got a map with more rather than less streets on it. Which is fine. And if you see it or hear with more ease that way than thats the best way for you to work with it.

And then how Paul Bley heard it is another story too. But that's not an easy one to answer

.... His earlier Newport solo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mjpIXnaqRw is more inside than the studio version we're discussing now. But the studio version comes 6 months after the Newport one (which of course is your original find ...

Another view of that phrase:

He is "playing up on the black keys"... simple analysis.
Now to be more analytic, he is playing A major over Ab major...
And he is pedaling the C# note (bouncing off it) while he contracts the intervals: he plays a melodic 4th, then a 3rd and finally a 2nd before falling into C7...

That's an interesting idea - the black keys do have a feel to them the white keys don't have. But on the other hand Paul Bley had all the benefits (side effects?) of serious classical piano training. Maybe he's a little past feeling out the difference between black and white keys? But even if he is looking for that difference there's an E in that measure. So that difference in feel between black and white keys really isn't all there in this one measure.



Playing that first measure without a chord underneath there's a very strong sense of C# minor. Cus first mentioned that a few posts ago.

There's really nothing in that measure that suggests A major. There's no A, there's no A major triad, there's a D# which isn't in the key of A, there's nothing about A measure in the preceding measure. There's nothing to A major in the following measure. And of course there's no A (the pitch) in those measures.

Play those 4 notes by themselves. They very plausibly could sound like they're saying C#-.



For sure he's emphasising the C#. And it falls, as you describe, to that C7. The sound of it is the C# RESOLVES to the C on the downbeat of the next measure.

That goes to the idea that these two measure are one scale Paul Bley's "stretched" across them. It's a common technique. Which scale it is depends on what anyone hears the first note of the scale.

But, if a C#-7 chord goes underneath the line in that first measure (and it fits and sounds perfectly fine there). And if a C7 chord is under the next measure, it's pretty easy to hear both measures as C#-7 to C7. Which is a common pattern Herbie Hancock and others, used all the time.

And the classic jazz intro for this tune (from Charlie Parker and bebop) is a vamp on C#-7 to C7. It would make a lot of sense that Paul Bley would be hearing that vamp. He plays a "version" of it out in front of the tune as the intro.

For sure this is one of the great solos in jazz.

Hope this is helpful ...

grrrr ... not to be ungrateful but the transcriptions for this solo - they're helpful for sure but they have some glitches ... but without the transcription, glitches or not, we couldn't have the discussion!! so ...

hey mark. I remember that parker phrase from a barry harris vid I found.. Did you attend Barry Harris masterclasses? Im curious about this concept of colouring chords http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCsw0NjXY1U with the diminshed scale borrowed from, yea from where exactly? the dominant chord of the prevailing chord? cheers

when he says diminished notes he means notes built from a fully-diminished 7th chord chord built on the a leading tone to whatever the chord might be.

if it's Cmaj7 then that leading tone is B and the chord he's talking about is B D F Ab. If it's in the key of C but the chord is a Dm7 then he's talking about C# E G Bb.

When he plays ATTYA in that clip and says "diminished notes" he means for each chord he's going to choose the appropriate fully dim 7th chord as a place to get some dissonant notes. so the opening chord is Fm which goes in the next measure to Bbm (first two measures of the tune)

He'll take "diminished" notes for the Fm from E G Bb Db (E fully dim7) and for the Bb from A C Eb Gb (A fully dim).

The "dim" notes he pulls for the Fm are G in the RH and E in the LH. The "dim" notes for Bb are, I think, C in the RH and A in the LH. In both cases those dim notes are a 10th apart.

See if you can figure out how those 10ths (the dim notes) resolve for each chord. Hint: You can probably hear those voices go down by step (not up ...

Hope this helps ...

Sooner or later someone will say well that's just a 9th and a maj7 that's been stuck into both chords. And that's right. But BH, so he can get the moving lines probably doesn't describe them that way. Which is why he says "diminished" notes.

I've never "got" BH's diminished theory. Still can't figure it out what he means . . . :-)

The chord B D F Ab in the key of C is a G7(b9) to me (coming from classical theory, that's how I hear also it) a dim-chord is an incomplete dominant chord.

So the C# E G Bb in D minor is a A7(b9).

Chris, I hear what you're describing all the time. I'll try to re-explain that diminished thing again. What he means by it.

That chord you call G7b9 - because it has B D F Ab. with G as a root. G7b9. Yes, that's there. It exists. We hear it like that. I'm with you.

BUT. If you conceptualise that chord as B D F Ab - forget the G for now - you actually could stick 4 different roots underneath it: G, Bb, Db, and E.

So we don't have one single domb9. We've got 4 of them. G7b9 Bb7b9 Db7b9 E7b9.

They're related to each other. They belong to the same "family." Later in the BH system you get to zip around with them through keys a min3rd away from each other.

So, ake the G out the picture and the chord can resolve to more places. And, actually, that's what you find in 19th century classical music where fully dim7 chords really get banged on a lot ... in Wagner, for example. That music plays on the fact that a fully dim 7 chord can become a dominant in 4 different keys.

But, again, that's for later in the BH system. The immediate thing he wants to do is get "diminished" notes and add them into whatever the base chord is. The reason he wants to do that is he needs notes that imply motion.

In classical theory the motion notes are simply dissonances. They resolve. In jazz they're usually 9, 11, 13. If you remember, in classical theory, 6ths and 7ths on a chord are dissonant as well.

A concrete example: Cmaj7. From B D F Ab could grab D F and Ab. Those are the "diminished notes that go along with that chord. It doesn't mean those are the only other notes you can add. It's just that right now, those are the "diminished" notes.

BUT. In Barry Harris land, Cmaj6 - and NOT Cmaj7 - is the fundamental chord. The reason is if you take his scale, which is C D E F G G# A B and pull out every other note you have two chords. C E G A (C6) and D B F Ab (D dim7, which for BH purposes is the same as B dim7)

If C6 is the fundamental chord than any of those notes in the B dim 7 chord - B D F Ab - are "diminished" notes.

BH says use any of those diminished notes where ever you want them. And then resolve them.

If we have a chord like C E B. It's a simple Cmaj7 chord. No mysteries there. But in BH land that chord actually needs to move a little. The motion is the B resolves to A. So C E B resolves to C E A.

Then in BH land you might dress that chord up so it's C E B D. No mysteries there, either. It's a simple Cmaj7 w/a 9th.

BUT. BH is seeing that B and the D as diminished notes that want to move. Even as I write this, I imagine someone saying: Wait! That's just a 7th and a 9th. They can just stay where there are! ... Well, they can but that's not how BH world works! It's actually not how classical "classical" theory - common practice theory - works either. In CPT 7 and 9 are dissonances. PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE. Or treat them as passing tones.

Back to the example. The simple resolution is C E B D -> C E A C. B resolves down by step to A. D resolves down by step to C. That's basic voice leading counterpoint stuff.

Let's dress the example up a little more.

C B E G#. The B and the G# are the diminished notes. The resolution would be C B E G# -> C A E A. OR. C B E G# -> C C E G#. That's also basic voice leading stuff.

All The Things You Are. The first chord. It's F-7. But the "hip" way to play, at least by those who used to use the word "hip" is F-maj7. And the melody note of course is Ab.

Barry Harris says in the video something like "let's grab diminished notes!" He instinctively grabs G and E as the diminished notes. Because those notes are coming out, in his world, from E G Bb Db and in his world that's the chord that gets superimposed on top of Fm.

So F and E are played in the left hand. The RH gets G and Ab (played as a minor 2nd). If you do this at the piano voice it so the G is a 10th higher than the E. You'll probably hear the G is screaming to resolve down to F!

What's going to happen is G resolves down to F and E resolves down to D (simultaneously). And then BH takes it a step further. He brings the F down to E and the D down to C# (simultaneously). Because E and C# are diminished notes. And then resolves those two notes up (simultaneously) by step. So C# and E come back to D and F.

One more example.

C7. The notes are (LH) C & Bb and (RH) E & G.

C Bb E G.


The BH "dim" notes for that chord are from B fully dim7 (B D F Ab). That dim notes always come from a chord that's a 1/2 step below the root.


Let's put some diminished notes in that chord and then resolve them.


C B F Ab -> C Bb E G

So that's some of the basic stuff of the system ... Then it's just a question of how far in anyone wants to go. And then some prefer a different system ....

I hope I clarified it rather than making it muddier!!!

Interesting because, prior to reading this, I played F-maj7 tonight (maybe I heard it this way) and it sounded too "outside" for the beginning chord. I had the E in the RH.
Will try out tomorrow with E in the LH.

Actually, starting on the maj 7th for whatever chord quality whether maj, min or dom, could potentially be a nice way for creating an outside sound, do you agree ?

Hi Cus,

Yes, I do agree w/you. It's a standard bebop sound. But the fakebooks don't always catch it. So often but not always where the chord could be F-maj7 the fakebook just says F-7.

And even it doesn't seem that F-maj7 should be the chord it can always resolve down to F-7. And F-7 can always go to F-6. ... to make moving lines rather than static chords.

So basically a dim chord with the original chord note in the bass? for the fm in attya you can play: (from bottom) : F (bass note) A C# E (from E dim scale OR does it have to be tones from the Edim CHORD alone?) and Ab (melody note) and reslove that to Bb Eb Ab within the same meassure for good voice lead. Sorry if this sounds confusing, I only have internet for 1 hour, cheers and thanks

Klink,

I'm not totally sure what you're spelling or describing but I think I know what you're asking .... maybe ...

So, yes, if F is in the bass the diminished 7th chord for that chord is going to be E G Bb Db.

All of those notes are fine to use. But in practice probably either 1, 2, or 3 of them get added at once.

Here's an example.

In your LH play F and E (a major 7th). In your RH play G and Ab (a minor 2nd).

Let's resolve those hands one at a time.

First the LH. F E -> F D. Hold the F and resolve the E down to D.

Then the RH. G Ab -> F Ab. Hold the Ab and resolve the G down to F.

Now put the two hands together and play it.

RH
Ab -> Ab
G -> F


LH
E -> D
F -> F

Hi Mark
I had somehow thought that the F-maj7 was a relatively recent sound, but it seems like it's been around for a while.

I tried the maj 7 to b7 to 6 LH movement for the C min 7 chord. The moving line does sound good.

Cus. Excellent! Glad that works!

Heres' a version of the 1st three measures. The 1st measure is pretty much the notes BH plays in the vid. The 2nd & 3rd measures aren't literal.

About the 1st measure: The basic notes come from Fm6. Anything that's not's part of an Fm6 chord is a "diminished" note. You can see how BH steps from dissonances to consonances and vice versa in that measure.

In the 2nd measure the C and A (on the downbeat of the measure) are the dim notes. They resolve ...

In the 3rd measure the D natural is a dim note. it resolves (to Db) which is part of Eb7.




The F-maj7 sound... it's one of the bebop "sounds." And yes, it can sound harsh at first!

... so just to make sure the context is clear - those 3 measures are ATTYA in a style that BH "might" demonstrate.

Hey Mark, I had a hole in my understanding of what BH meant but you just filled it. So just a leading tone to the current chord.

For example, when doing Footprints I'm doing B dim on C-. But I stayed with that the whole time. If I'm understanding you right, I should be doing E Dim on the F-?

After using this a bit, I'm understanding that these are tension raising maneuvers and they give some sort of logic for doing it outside of just dominants. True?

I watched some video where someone said that Herbie uses Min-Major scale (which is aug instead of dim). I suppose if you think about it more closely, maybe we're putting in a lot of theory to explain why and how they go out when it's just the occasional half-step, or is it a question of "which" half-step?

For example, if you're at an approach note on the offbeat and you HOLD it through the downbeat, then in essence, you've gone out and the sophisticated theoretical explanations may not be what the player was thinking. I tried practicing like this and it frankly started to sound like Paul Bley (I didn't realize this until I heard Paul Bley do it a few times).

Jazz wee,

Sounds like you got it. And yes E dim7 is what you want for F-7. And, yes, your question with 'true' is true.

BTW, I gig with the drummer that's in the BH videos. He's a good friend of BH and understands all what he teaches. EXCEPT he's a drummer so I guess his explanations (re-explanations?) are going over my head. LOL. So although I have a source of info, I didn't even know exactly what to ask.

Now here's another thought on going out. A kind of modern sound is intervallic playing or really thinking triads. It has a nice effect because typically when one goes out on a triad, perhaps only one note is out.

Can't say I applied this yet but it hasn't really worked too well on BH Dim scales because too many of the notes are out. In contrast, min-major scales or W-T scales played from the root have less tension notes.

Anyway, intervallic playing doesn't come naturally to the fingers and so it's even harder to implement it going outside when you have to think about it.

That's very cool that you've got that connection.

For that triad concept George Garzone (tenor sax) has a great video.


You know that triad type thing ... It actually goes back to and can come out of BH's system. Which goes the adage of nothing's really new.

Let me know if there's something specific about the BH stuff you're trying to get to. The thing about is, and I'm sure you know this - it's a very very open way of doing things. The other very cool thing about it is it slots in very nicely to classical theory.

So back to BH, there's no difference in approach depending on chord quality? The dim scale always changes per chord? Or is it applicable to ANY leading tone you wish? Or are we talking about a half step above or a half step below the ROOT as the scale options? How about whole tone away?

There's still a hole here in my understanding of BH.

I'm guessing (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is intended to move the voices in between the stated harmony. In which case I can see the point of connecting the movement of the chord to the root similar to moving chords around in half-steps.

I'm not totally following your question ... but I'll try and answer anyway. If I veer off just say so!

The dim7 chord is always built on the raised seventh. So if the chord is Cmaj7 it's Bdim7. If it's G7 it's F#dim7. If it's Dm7 it's C#dim7. If it's Dm7b5 it's C#dim7. I know you know - a Bdim7 is the same as a Ddim7 which is the same as Fdim7 and so on.

When Barry Harris says "let's put in some diminished notes" he's pulling notes out of the appropriate dim7 chord. So the very basic application of this stuff is only going to have 9ths, 11ths, and b13s. But that's the most simple BASIC application.

There are plenty of ways to get all 12 notes over any chord at all. That's the strength of the system. It scales up from very basic with a few choices to very complex with all choices.. ALL choices.

That example I posted earlier today shows some simple stuff added to ATTYA.

And you're correct, the bigger idea is to be able to move voices wherever you want them. So the diminished notes are the "motion" notes. They fill in the gaps.

Does this help?

OK. So it's not just some random leading tone. It's the raised seventh. Or always a half step below the chord root.

What's the theory then to expand the colors for a dominant using this same system?

A very general outline of part of it to get to more colorful stuff:

Any dom7b9 has three cousins. So G7b9 has Bb7b9, Db7b9, and E7b9. Any of the notes from those chords can go over any of those chords.

Those chords all have ii-7 chords and ii-7b5 chords that precede them. Any of that can go over the dominant along with the dim7ths that support them. How far out it all goes is up us.

Here's an example from my blog (the outside the chord changes post) where first a C#m-6 gets superimposed over C7. In the next measure E-6 gets superimposed over the C7.



What it all comes down to is simple stuff is getting superimposed over simple stuff. But really going through the possibilities and doing something with it and using it ... THAT takes time and experimentation and etc. etc.

Great Mark. That part about related doms a minor 3rd apart I know. So if you know the other dominants in the diminished cycle, you just use their equivalent dim. Got it.

I just tried it a moment ago, and I get a nice intervallic flow using these. This has the advantage of having more triadic content than let's say, just thinking of a H-W diminished scale in a linear way.

Thanks for clarifying.

Hi Mark
Thanks very much for this helpful example.
The 3rd measure is particularly beautiful as it provides an open ending at the fermata.
Is this the George Garzone article you were talking to JW about ?

http://www.jodyjazz.com/images/dvd/georgemaster.pdf

Hi JW
I really need to use the alternative triads more. I think it will take me a lot of work to begin hearing this way.

Cus! Yes! Good catch! That's the article!

yea sorry I need to be able to make those little snips of notes you manage to put it. my question was just if BH built tensions from the whole dim SCALE, and just not the dim CHORD, but like you said; goal is to move voices around anyway you want in a way that makes sense. takin in voice leading and such, I guess ANY system really would work.. As long as someone enjoys the consequences, cheers

Excellent! You've answered your question.

It does really just come down to someone enjoying the consequences, as you say (and well said that is

Beautiful theme, fine examples! I would like to add my five cents (30 kopeks). (With Paul Bley I had a common concert in Tel Aviv. During the intermission, we had an interesting conversation with him about the influence of his music on Keith Jarrett) I want to point another angle view on outside playing compared to inside,without having to shatter a melody into separate notes, and then to analyze them.
However, this requires use of the term, which in the West do not understand and do not like: musical intonation (contour , inflection) .This is due to the influence of the speech melody on music.The first form of this influence was the musical recitative, so familiar from oratorios and operas. However, the recitative is always based of the chord notes , and its melody at times reminiscent intonation of telephone computer reported that you dialed the wrong number. With the development of music influence the conversation became more sophisticated, and in the early 20th century led to what has been called by A.Shenberg "Shprehgesang", which was already completely atonal. Melodic line in jazz passed the same evolution - with a delay of 45 years, but in pace several times faster than Western music: between ragtime and Ornette Coleman separates only 65 years .
Jazz improvisation was originally built not on singing but telling a story; and it is natural that conversational tone became more and more noticeable during the evolution of jazz.
Here we must note the fact that studies the difference between singing and talking: classical singing is based on the sounds of a fixed height, while none of the spoken sound is not fixed, ie, music, i.e. outside of that chord, harmony, tonality and scale of extremism of Schoenberg, who claimed: "After several decades people will be whistle my tunes in the street " composers began to combine the tonal and atonal technique - ie to be inside and outside (tonality, modality) alternately. At the same rhythm, and melodic intonation always had and still have logic. It is true that, together with the transformation of the melody in speech melody   its rhythm and transformed into speech rhythm, which has a pulse, but not necessarily associated with a permanent meter.
All these phenomena take place also in jazz. If we consider the sense of use in jazz   technique outside - inside, you can designate it as a transition from   vocalized phrases to speech intonation of highest expression, where the less connection with the harmony, the greater expressiveness.
Worth thinking about the following question: when we hear melodeclamation - speech on the musical background, we hear the harmony of musical sounds simultaneously with non-musical; but this doesn't prevent our ears.
 Why ?

One answer would be that the spoken part makes sense because we understand the words or the syntax and we are very familiar with human speech and it's rhythm.

Yes, KlinkKlonk, my idea was that we hear at the same time two different independent streams where each of them has its own logic; and we can ad libitum to separate from each other. But then immediately arises another question - more fundamental: does that mean that feeling of dissonance - question not only of aural but also of the psychological perception?

Everyone hears dissonance different according to what your experiences are, so I don't see why it shouldn't be based on psychological perception. But I've a feeling that is not what you're after.

Simple way to explain it: A diminished chord contains two tritones. Each tritone can be two different dominant-7th chords. So, four possible chords altogether.

That simple way misses the context of the discussion re: Barry Harris' system.

A simple example of "deformation" of melodic line demonstrates that the lack of a strict consistency between notes of melody and harmony is balanced by logical rhythm, intonation and phrasing, taken from the original.

Nahum, nice example.

Nicholas Slonimsky, author of Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns based everything he did in that book on three basic ideas, which were interpolation, infrapolation, and ultrapolation.

Interpolation is what you get if you fill in an interval with notes that don't go outside of the interval. For example,

C D E F B
C D G A
C# E F B

They're all interpolations because the middle notes stay within the interval established by the first and last note.

Infrapolation is what you get when the notes in the middle are lower than the first and last note. For example:

F D E G
F D E A
G E F B

Ultrapolation is what you get when the middle notes are higher than the first and last note.

F C D G
F B C G

Those are simple examples. They could include less than 4 notes or more than 4 notes. And they can combine in whatever ways we combine them. In Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, which is one of the books Coltrane is known to have practiced from, there are thousands of scales based on those patterns. And there are sources that say Barry Harris gave Coltrane a copy of the Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns.

I think what you're saying with your example, and I agree (even if it's not what you're saying I agree! ...is take a great line, like a lick from Charlie Parker or an excerpt from a solo or even a whole solo. The lick or the excerpt or the solo has a "contour," meaning that because its a line it's a shape we can trace. So for example we can take the Charlie Parker example you included AND your example (that you can deformed) - the contour is the same for both. But of course the contour in your example is a little more extreme perhaps. Because you "deformed" it to make your (excellent) point.

We could apply Slonimsky's vocabularly to Charlie Parker and your example. So the last 4 eight notes of the first measure in Charlie Parker and your example are both examples of descending interpolations. (The middle notes are inside the interval framed by the outer notes)The first 4 8th notes in the 3rd measure of of Charlie Parker's solo and your example are infrapolations (the middle notes are lower than interval made by the outer notes). I chose those two examples because they're simple. Where and how exactly to break a line into units - or even whether or not it should or can be broken into units - is part of the art of using the theory.

In a related method of learning, some, including Hal Galper, advocate keeping the rhythms of say a Charlie Parker solo and then using your own notes. So that's a more radical version of what you've proposed. Because the rhythms remain but the contour of the lines can be put aside or even disregarded.

What I'm not saying with any of the above is "this is how things work." What I am saying is there are always a bunch of ways to describe what we see and hear. So the fun comes when we figure out what works.

You've raised a lot of really interesting points ... I hope all above is helpful and that I've added to the ideas you raised.

Mark, thank you for a very interesting explanation! Melodic shifts, to which Slonimsky gave terminology, I found practically on the instrument , and not on piano, but on sax - there dealing with pure melodic intonation. I recommend to all jazz pianists to learn even a little bit to play the saxophone - it simply opens the ears.


Here you can listen to an example: http://www.mediafire.com/listen/aifn96805hrvn2c/in-out.mp3

I don't know. I didn't read the discussion. Just skimmed it and the part you wrote about 4 chords caught my eye.

Mark, in these "deviations", "shifts" and "strains" is located our individuality . Create an entirely new musical idea happens may be once in a lifetime, but we can say the well-known phrase our own way;therefore, it is equally important to work on the melodic line in the composition or improvisation also  without harmonic background.

Every note in a scale has it's own particular resolution tendency. Did you know, that in general, outside notes in major tonalities tend to resolve up a 1/2 step. And in minor tonalities outside notes tend to resolve down a 1/2 step. By the way, there are only around 6 melodic embellishments possible in piano melody. I can't understand why these concepts are brushed aside in most "how to improvise" jazz courses. Every note Charlie Parker played was a chord tone or an embellishment note.

It's just another concept: You're talking about phrases composed of melodic embellishments, but Coltrane used alternative pentatonic scales, which contains 59 possibilities.

We all understand the usual Pentatonic scale is "123 56" (when inverted same as relative minor) Thus 12 x 2 = 24 major and minor usual Pentatonic scales derived from all 12 keys.

59 is not divisible by 12 ... where is it from... and where has it been shown that Coltrane would intellectually select from 59 pent scales in the midst of improvising? I doubt he did that other than as some brief experiment. That would take the fun out of improv.

12 (x2) basic pent scales are plenty enough to go outside with, 59 outside pent scales is looking for extra unnecessary work.

In fact, there are 5 different diatonic pentatonic scales:
1-2-3-5-6, 2-3-5-6-8, 3-5-6-8- 9, 5-6-8-9-10, 6-8-9-10- 12
. 5x12 = 60 scales.

If I could contribute anything here, I'd say a good way to play outside is just to play (quote) melodies that may not fit with the changes of the song you're playing. I've heard my teacher Jean-Michel Pilc quote Spain (in 4/4) over Someday My Prince Will Come (in 3/4), but he's totally nuts.