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#2221273 - 01/27/14 06:38 AM Some more help needed!! kawai es7 or p255
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Hi,

I am just sending the casio px350 back to the shop because there are certain things i did not like about it( although certain things I did).

I was going to get the kawai es100 but I have now decided to up my budget to around 1000. I am looking at the kawai es7 * although there has been quality issue with these) and the Yamaha p255 ( I am not convinced about the GH action). Any one has experience of these? and are there any others i should look at?

I need a good piano type keyboard, usb wave recording , usb port ,sequencer,.

Thanks



Edited by musicman100 (01/29/14 07:52 AM)

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#2221283 - 01/27/14 07:13 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
mirari Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/25/14
Posts: 5
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: musicman100
I am just sending the casio px350 back to the shop because there are certain things i did not like about it( although certain things I did).

I am curious - what were the things that you did not like about the px350?
_________________________
"It offers what you want, not what you need."

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#2221290 - 01/27/14 07:32 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: musicman100
I am looking at the kawai es7 * although there has been quality issue with these)...


May I ask what you are referring to specifically? I don't recall seeing quality issues reported in this forum.

Originally Posted By: musicman100
... and the Yamaha p255 ( I am not convinced about the GH action).


Again, may I ask why? The GH action is used in a wide range of Yamaha instruments.

My recommendation would be to visit your local Kawai and Yamaha piano dealers and play-test both models extensively.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2221304 - 01/27/14 08:00 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Before I say the reasons I did try it in the shop but it is very hard to know if it is the right one after playing for 30 mins or so.

The speakers are not great. The piano sample was good but the middle frequency are a bit weak although that could be the speakers.
I like the feel of the keys and the action felt good but some bottom keys did start to sound louder then the others and i was unsure about the build quality. The keys do make a loud sound not really noticeable when you play medium loud at half volume but if you play quietly you do notice them. The controls were very confusing and it took me ages to figure out how to load wave files form the usb stick even after reading the manual!!!. It was really annoying not be able to load wave files unless there were called 'Take XX'

The styles are not that great although you have to remember the price point of this keyboard ( I am used to playing styles of the Tyros 4 so I have been spoiled!!). I did use the sequencer but only for one track-multi tracking looked quite complicated to do.

So overall I thought it had a good action, not bad piano sample and the other features are not that great. But for the price it is not bad piano. I have just decided to pay more and get a better piano sound and features that I can use.

that is why i am now looking at the kawai es7 or the yamaha

Thanks

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#2221311 - 01/27/14 08:15 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Hi James,

I know the internet is terrible for this- one problem and everyone knows about it.The internet does not show the people who had no problems just the people that did, so you have to take it with a pinch of salt.

It was on this forum-

Kawai ES7 Action/Feel

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2063683/1.html

A couple of people mentioned the problem.

Also this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RNhJb-cBFg

I am sure it is a one off and the person did get good service form Kawai, but it is something you consider when you are spending over a 1000 on the keyboard.

Also james you might now this does the Es7 have fingered on bass so you can play inverted chords?

thanks

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#2221336 - 01/27/14 09:15 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: musicman100
I know the internet is terrible for this- one problem and everyone knows about it.The internet does not show the people who had no problems just the people that did, so you have to take it with a pinch of salt.


Yes, I agree. Individuals are far more likely to post about problems and issue with a product - be it a digital piano, a computer, a car etc. - than positive or even neutral feedback.

Originally Posted By: musicman100
Also james you might now this does the Es7 have fingered on bass so you can play inverted chords?


Yes, I believe so. The ES7's chord recognition is quite extensive.
Can you perhaps provide an example of what you would intend to play, and the anticipated result? I can then double check this behaviour with one of the ES7 engineers.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2221353 - 01/27/14 09:58 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: Kawai James]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Hi James,

Thank you for your help.

Here are some examples

C C/B C/A C/G so I expect the bass to play C B A G while the chords remain on C

How doe sit deal with 13ths and sus 2nd chords.

I looked at the manual and in the rhythm section present list it lists 13th and C/G chords so it must recognise them?

Also when you record audio does it record what is sent to the audio in?

On a off topic comment working for a keyboard company is my dream job!! I did once apply to Yamaha when I left college but did not get anywhere. I always wanted to write a rhythm pattern for a keyboard,ever since getting my first keyboard a Yamaha psr75( in 1983!!). Maybe one day.

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#2221360 - 01/27/14 10:31 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1599
Loc: Portugal
Out of curiosity, what really is the advantage in having an automated bass line? Is it just to save time? Because, apart from that, it looks, to me, quite like predictive spelling in word processing programs, where the machine tries to tell you what's best rather than you telling the machine. On those occasions, the machine almost has ideas very different from mine and I have to read it out the riot act in order for there not to be a serious crisis of authority.

If it came to music, the personality clash would become evident even sooner, I imagine.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2221425 - 01/27/14 12:13 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Coker Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/31/11
Posts: 196
Loc: Connecticut,USA
I actually found the automated bass on the FP-4 to be quite helpful in practicing. I could simulate playing with a trio, work on keeping constant meter, and develop comping and solo chops. Much better than trying to stay in synch with a metronome.

However, I wouldn't be trying to force the bass line into a descending pattern or something so specific. If you do need such, for performance, for example, then your bass lines are probably so specific that you'll need to play with a sequencer or sequencer program of some kind.
_________________________
Yamaha CP4, Kawai CA93

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#2221430 - 01/27/14 12:18 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1599
Loc: Portugal
I could simulate playing with a trio, work on keeping constant meter, and develop comping and solo chops. Much better than trying to stay in synch with a metronome.


Yes - it's good for building up improvisations and solos, I imagine. I think I'm just a bit paranoid about machines beginning to take over real musicians - or on the other hand, the machine being so predictable that it's not worth bothering with.

But I can see your point!
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2221443 - 01/27/14 12:45 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
I use it a lot when I am composing songs so I can hear more fully the arrangement. It is also useful if you are trying to compose in a certain style it can give you ideas. As for the bass line - fingered bass is essential for my composing work and playing music since the bass is an essential part of the harmony - if it is just the root note the music does not sound right, try playing A Whiter Shade of Pale without the right bass line it does not work or Phil Collins in the air tonight.

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#2221514 - 01/27/14 03:21 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1599
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: musicman100
I use it a lot when I am composing songs so I can hear more fully the arrangement. It is also useful if you are trying to compose in a certain style it can give you ideas. As for the bass line - fingered bass is essential for my composing work and playing music since the bass is an essential part of the harmony - if it is just the root note the music does not sound right, try playing A Whiter Shade of Pale without the right bass line it does not work or Phil Collins in the air tonight.


I agree with you that you need to invert chords for any kind of reasonable bass line.....but I still don't understand why you'd want a machine to do it, rather than using a human being to voice the progression.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2221532 - 01/27/14 04:01 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: toddy]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
I agree in an ideal world I would use live musicians but when composing or playing by your self it just makes it more fun!!

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#2221545 - 01/27/14 04:23 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
toddy Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1599
Loc: Portugal
Well, I'm all in favour of that, yes. And, in general, I'm all in favour of new technology, too.

Just so long as the musician lead the machines in the direction they (the musician) wants to go, and not the other way round.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2221644 - 01/27/14 07:44 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: musicman100
Here are some examples

C C/B C/A C/G so I expect the bass to play C B A G while the chords remain on C

How doe sit deal with 13ths and sus 2nd chords.

I looked at the manual and in the rhythm section present list it lists 13th and C/G chords so it must recognise them?


I have asked my colleagues to confirm the chord recognition/handling, so will update you when I receive a response.

Regarding this query:

Originally Posted By: musicman100
Also when you record audio does it record what is sent to the audio in?


No, I'm afraid not. Currently, only the MP10, CA95, and CS10 support this extended functionality.

Originally Posted By: musicman100
On a off topic comment working for a keyboard company is my dream job!!


Yes, I'm very fortunate to be here. wink
I grew up around keyboards and digital pianos, studying the owner's manuals to understand how the instruments worked. It's amazing how things have gone full-circle, in that now I'm the person responsible for (most of) the manuals.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2221651 - 01/27/14 08:18 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I received a prompt response from my colleague, who write:

Quote:
Yes, the ES7 has fingered on bass when ACC Mode is set to 'Full Keyboard' (the default is 'Normal').

When you play C C/B C/A C/G, the bass is played C B A G while the chords remain on C.

The bass is detected by the lowest key at a distance of octaves from the right hand.


Regarding your 13th / sus2nd query, these chords are not detected/available to the rhythm section.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#2221768 - 01/28/14 06:50 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Phlox Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 112
Loc: The Netherlands
Is 'Fingered on bass' the only mode that recognizes chord inversions ??
_________________________
10.000 clowns on a rainy day

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#2222365 - 01/29/14 07:51 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Yes it looks like it only recognised inverted chords in Full fingered mode.

Anyway what do people think of the Kawai es7 compared to the Yamaha p255? or would it be wise to look at the kawai mp6?

I am looking at about 1000 (these are all about 1100 to 1200 in the UK so should be able to get a discount)

Are there any other models I should consider?

thanks

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#2222380 - 01/29/14 08:35 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8897
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: musicman100
Anyway what do people think of the Kawai es7 compared to the Yamaha p255?


I've yet to try the new Yamaha, however the previous generation P155 was a solid, well-regarded mid-range DP, so I expect the updated model will maintain this reputation.

Originally Posted By: musicman100
would it be wise to look at the kawai mp6?


If you require additional controller functions and a broader range of sounds, yes. However, please note that the MP6 does not feature instrumental backing accompaniments, just drum patterns.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2222798 - 01/29/14 08:58 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
surgtech Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 98
Loc: USA
Musicman, I am glad that you've started this thread. I've also narrowed down my choices to these two pianos. Still going back and forth....Undecided
_________________________
Andrew

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#2222916 - 01/30/14 02:03 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1184
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
FWIW --

I haven't played (or tested) either DP, so take this comment FWIW.

The ES7 has "string resonance" as one of its features. I'm pretty sure that the P255 does not.

I suspect that "string resonance" is an important part of the difference in sound between typical DP's and acoustic pianos. It's implemented well by Roland. I haven't tested the implementation on the ES7.

That would be an important difference, to me, if I were choosing between the two pianos.

. Charles

PS -- It's time that I visited the local Kawai dealer to try the ES7 . . .

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#2222948 - 01/30/14 05:26 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: Charles Cohen]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Originally Posted By: Charles Cohen
FWIW --


The ES7 has "string resonance" as one of its features. I'm pretty sure that the P255 does not.

I suspect that "string resonance" is an important part of the difference in sound between typical DP's and acoustic pianos. It's implemented well by Roland. I haven't tested the implementation on the ES7.

That would be an important difference, to me, if I were choosing between the two pianos.

. Charles



Hi Charles,

According to the Yamaha site the p255 does have string resonance

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical...255/?mode=model

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#2222952 - 01/30/14 05:42 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: surgtech]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Originally Posted By: surgtech
Musicman, I am glad that you've started this thread. I've also narrowed down my choices to these two pianos. Still going back and forth....Undecided


Yes I am lucky that in the UK the pianos are the same price ( does not happen very often in UK usually USA is cheaper!!!) I don't understand the pricing in today exchange rates the es7 here is 1100 and in the USA is $1999 which is not far from $1804. The yamaha is 1100 here and only $1299 in the USA but with today exchange rate would be $1804. The RRP is still higher on Kawai in usa is $2399 but only discounted to $1999 , on the P255 the RRP is $1999 but discounted to $1299, So it seems like for some reason there is heavy discount on the Yamaha.

Crazy pricing!!

I need to find a dealer that has them both in stock so I can try them side by side.

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#2223336 - 01/30/14 09:02 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1184
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: musicman100
. . .

Hi Charles,

According to the Yamaha site the p255 does have string resonance

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical...255/?mode=model


Yes, it does. Thank you for the correction.

. Charles

PS -- now I _really_ have to check out the ES7 !<g>

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#2223478 - 01/31/14 06:44 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3461
Loc: Northern England.
Originally Posted By: musicman100
Before I say the reasons I did try it in the shop but it is very hard to know if it is the right one after playing for 30 mins or so.

The speakers are not great. The piano sample was good but the middle frequency are a bit weak although that could be the speakers.
I like the feel of the keys and the action felt good but some bottom keys did start to sound louder then the others and i was unsure about the build quality. The keys do make a loud sound not really noticeable when you play medium loud at half volume but if you play quietly you do notice them. The controls were very confusing and it took me ages to figure out how to load wave files form the usb stick even after reading the manual!!!. It was really annoying not be able to load wave files unless there were called 'Take XX'

The styles are not that great although you have to remember the price point of this keyboard ( I am used to playing styles of the Tyros 4 so I have been spoiled!!). I did use the sequencer but only for one track-multi tracking looked quite complicated to do.

So overall I thought it had a good action, not bad piano sample and the other features are not that great. But for the price it is not bad piano. I have just decided to pay more and get a better piano sound and features that I can use.

that is why i am now looking at the kawai es7 or the yamaha

Thanks


The reasons you mentioned here are those which prevented me getting one. Even the AP650 falls foul o` some of those. I got the DGX 650. Love it. Not everybody`s cup of tea but recording is simples (audio and MIDI) And the 5 track recorder is adequate for simple sequencing. I love the new piano sound. Bright and Brash. Piano action isn`t brill.
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2223511 - 01/31/14 08:55 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 713
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Although I've played P255 only briefly, I am very acquainted with GH action and in my personal opinion it is inferior compared to RH2 action found in ES7. This is a matter of taste though.

As a current owner of ES7 I really believe it is currently the best portable piano in that price range. That's also a personal opinion of course smile
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2223548 - 01/31/14 10:13 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: CyberGene]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Hi Evgeny,

Just listening to your music is all the music played on the es7?

Do you have any youtube videos of you playing then es7?

Also could I ask you further questions about the kawai?

Thanks

Nigel

PS You have got through a lot of digital pianos!!!

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#2223551 - 01/31/14 10:15 AM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Just realised the music is from 2007 and 2008 so obviously not on the es7!!!! Do you have examples played on the es7

thanks

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#2223622 - 01/31/14 12:27 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: musicman100]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 713
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
I have had my ES7 for about a month (it replaced my MP6 which in turn replaced my CA63) so I don't have Youtube videos yet but I hope I can post anything soon smile

P.S. Sure, you can ask me anything about ES7. There are many ES7 users on the forum, so there's a lot of know-how smile


Edited by CyberGene (01/31/14 12:31 PM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#2223646 - 01/31/14 01:00 PM Re: Some more help needed!! [Re: CyberGene]
musicman100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 87
Loc: North east .UK
Hi,

I have been looking at the MP6 why did you choose to replace it with an es7 which are very similar ?

I can see you have tired every major manufacture- and you choose kawai so would you say it has the best sound and keyboard feel then?

Thanks


Edited by musicman100 (01/31/14 01:02 PM)

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