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#2224484 - 02/02/14 04:31 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Musical Dan Offline
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Registered: 05/27/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Listening to more demos the CP4 sounds really good to me, though not as good as random demonstration on you tube. I'm not sure if this is just due to recording quality.

I wonder if the yamaha demos sneakily show off their best notes in their demos (eg: any notes which are stretched they restrict to just passing notes, and sustained notes are just long enough so that you don't get to hear the looping.)


Edited by Musical Dan (02/02/14 04:32 AM)
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#2224501 - 02/02/14 07:14 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Yamaha's voicing is very good .. very very good. And unless your specifically listening for it you can't really notice the looping in general solo play until your specifically listening for it and playing stuff to expose it. But once you get ... well then you always hear it but it took me a long time to notice it but after that I was always listening for it ...couldn't help myself. You can never hear it in a mix or playing most songs ...but its like a dormant disease you know its there and it annoys me on sheer principle. Stretching is very difficult to detect without software but its possible it could be noticed on a very small number of solo passages. Yamaha's pianos sound great listening to them ...the sound isn't the issue its the underlying gnawing feeling your being taken for a ride and basically paying for 10 year old sampling technology. The CPX is a absolutely fantastic piano voice its 88 key sampled actually (the only one that is) and deserves its place ...but it is looped. But seriously for 99% of situations it isn't a issue. I think the RD800 is a far better all round board but you could arguably say the Roland has only 1 really great AP itself. Its organs, clav's and 1100 odd other sounds are pretty good. And its controls and 4 part layering make it more versatile for live work.
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"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2225897 - 02/04/14 05:27 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Kevin Keys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Ohio
I am very interested in the Yamaha CP4.

It sounds very good to me in the video demos on youtube. I was impressed that it sounds good on the videos where a direct feed into the video recorder was used(Kraft Music especially and Sweetwater as well)but also, and more importantly, it still sounded good on the videos which were not a direct feed, but instead recorded the room. (I noticed this in the 5 or so videos recorded by the Japanese pianist, Masataka Kono. He was running the cp4 through a Pa system((a Yamaha PA system if I remember correctly)) and the sound was recorded with external mics or simply the video recorders mics.)

I plan to use the CP4 to perform for gigs(mainly solo classical music and jazz with a duo and trio) but also to record demos.

The CP4 has a recording function that records directly to USB.
Has anyone used this feature? Does the cp4 USB recording feature produce professional quality recordings?
_________________________
Kawai MP7(home), Yamaha CP33(gigs), Yamaha P80(retired), three QSC K10's, Allen and Heath Zed 10fx mixer, Sennheiser HD598, Bachendorff acoustic 45"

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#2225973 - 02/04/14 07:22 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
36251 Online   content
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
I heard something in this video that I haven't heard Nord or any other DP produce. That is the tape echo thing the player was doing live. Pretty cool. That and the live stereo vibrato controls really is making me think about the 800. Starts around 1:10.



Edited by 36251 (02/04/14 07:23 PM)
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#2226113 - 02/05/14 02:06 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I've now got them set up side by side ... the Roland kills the Yamaha except its got only one really great AP while the Yamaha has three quite acceptable (but by no means technically good) But the roland does have the one great one. AP's. The Roland has a big lead in Synth sounds, strings, massive in Organs and Clav's etc ...while I'd say they are about equal in EP's with the Yammie having perhaps a slight edge in the Rhodes but the RD has got some better Wurli's.

The Roland is the better all round board.

When you consider you can nearly buy both for the price of one Nord Stage 2 ...what's Nord doing ?



Edited by Dr Popper (02/05/14 02:11 AM)
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Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2226127 - 02/05/14 03:08 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Dr Popper]
chadol Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/14
Posts: 38
Loc: Chicago, USA
Nice comparison. How would you say the actions compare? Is one noticeably lighter or heavier than the other?

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#2226136 - 02/05/14 03:30 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Dr Popper Offline
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Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Yamaha is heavier then the Roland both are very good actions but the Rolands is probably the best graded action I've played.
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Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2226191 - 02/05/14 08:05 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Kevin Keys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/02/14
Posts: 34
Loc: Ohio
Is there a video yet of the Roland in a Live situation?

That is the real test.

Most of the higher-end DP's sound good with a direct feed to a recording device.
It is how they perform through PA speakers(in a live gigging situation) that is most important.
_________________________
Kawai MP7(home), Yamaha CP33(gigs), Yamaha P80(retired), three QSC K10's, Allen and Heath Zed 10fx mixer, Sennheiser HD598, Bachendorff acoustic 45"

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#2226225 - 02/05/14 09:24 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Dr Popper]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3215
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
When you consider you can nearly buy both for the price of one Nord Stage 2 ...what's Nord doing ?


Selling lots of keyboards. ;-)

Really, it's a very different board. Knobby VA synth, aftertouch, full clonewheel functionality, custom sample loading, ability to load completely different sounding grands and uprights into them, etc. Also, a decent number of people still seem to think that their pianos simply sound better. (Well, I don't know if anyone has directly compared RD800 to Nord yet. I did think the CP4 would kinda knock off the Nord Piano 2, but I have seen a number of posts from people who still just prefer the sound of the Nord.) And while Roland has gotten the weight down some, the Nord is still lighter.

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#2226232 - 02/05/14 09:38 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Kevin Keys]
david_ka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 93
Loc: Sweden
I agree with Kevin Keys, I like the pianosound in the sweatwater demo.
To me it will come down to all other sounds to, does the cp4 have enough other usable sounds for live situations, organ, strings, pads.... I donīt know. I think the rd800 has more of that.
On the other hand, how many do I really use. A couple of string sounds, organ, a couple of pads, Itīs all about how usable they are.

Negative for Roland is that it is a little bit longer, can be a problem in a small car. The weight differance is nothing I care to much about.
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#2226233 - 02/05/14 09:38 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I've got a Stage 2 ... not exactly my favorite board. I don't think the AP pianos are that good. The Ep's are good but no better then the CP4 or RD800. The action is rubbish, the VA is pretty basic, and the organs while good are no better then the Roland. The biggest problem with the Nord is it doesn't have the memory to load enough sounds and the poly is rubbish ...notes drop out all the time if you attempt for example a 3 way layer split. Yeah they are light, red and easy to use. But they are very limiting boards.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2226247 - 02/05/14 10:12 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Dr Popper]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3215
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I've got a Stage 2 ...
the organs while good are no better then the Roland.

When you factor in real-time control (drawbuttons, dedicated percussion and C/V controls etc.) and quality of organ effects (rotary, overdrive, etc.), I don't see the RD competing with the Nord there.

Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
poly is rubbish ...notes drop out all the time if you attempt for example a 3 way layer split.

I haven't heard anyone complain about the poly in a layer/split before, interesting. I wonder if you're doing something uncommon. It really shouldn't be much of an issue. Organ has unlimited poly. Piano poly remains the same whether you play it by itself or you split/layer it with something. Unless maybe you layer it with a second piano, is that what you're doing? The engine with the least polyphony is the synth/sample engine, which is only 18, which I guess drops to 9 if you layer, so that's the really susceptible part, if you use synth/sample sounds with sustain pedal.

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#2226314 - 02/05/14 12:30 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
36251 Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
Nord has a very marketable formula but for that kind of money, they should have better actions. We can thank them for forcing other big three to improve the live experience. I like the eq on the CP4 and the live controls on the 800.

I guess I can buy red paint if I need to cool it out.
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AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2226657 - 02/05/14 10:47 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Dr Popper]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
The action is rubbish, the VA is pretty basic, and the organs while good are no better then the Roland.

Okay you got me, what is "VA"?

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#2226659 - 02/05/14 10:50 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: xorbe]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3215
Originally Posted By: xorbe

Okay you got me, what is "VA"?
Virtual Analog synthesizer.

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#2226677 - 02/05/14 11:33 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: anotherscott]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: anotherscott

I haven't heard anyone complain about the poly in a layer/split before, interesting. I wonder if you're doing something uncommon. It really shouldn't be much of an issue. Organ has unlimited poly. Piano poly remains the same whether you play it by itself or you split/layer it with something. Unless maybe you layer it with a second piano, is that what you're doing? The engine with the least polyphony is the synth/sample engine, which is only 18, which I guess drops to 9 if you layer, so that's the really susceptible part, if you use synth/sample sounds with sustain pedal.


I was dropping them all the time with strings layered with Italian grand on the top and a mellotron pad on the bottom. Pad would always drop on sustain.
Gave up in the end. To tell you the truth ... I don't see the attraction in the first place.
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2226818 - 02/06/14 07:51 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Dr Popper]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3215
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I was dropping them all the time with strings layered with Italian grand on the top and a mellotron pad on the bottom. Pad would always drop on sustain.

Ah. The piano layer has nothing to do with it, since piano has its own polyphony. It's the fact that you were using two synth sounds (strings + mellotron) in the synth section that has 18-note polyphony, in conjunction with the sustain pedal that can make 18 notes go fast.

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#2227040 - 02/06/14 04:02 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
david_ka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 93
Loc: Sweden
Is there any difference when it comes to midi if you compare cp4 vs rd800. So far I have not used more than one keyboard live but if I get the cp4 I think I'll use my Nord electro 3 for organ and some synth sounds.
I really don't no what I should look for when it comes to midi 'cause I haven't used it so much.
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#2227130 - 02/06/14 06:51 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
david, what kind of functionality are you hoping to achieve by using MIDI with your Electro?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2227162 - 02/06/14 07:59 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: david_ka]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: david_ka
Is there any difference when it comes to midi if you compare cp4 vs rd800. So far I have not used more than one keyboard live but if I get the cp4 I think I'll use my Nord electro 3 for organ and some synth sounds.
I really don't no what I should look for when it comes to midi 'cause I haven't used it so much.



While both have a master keyboard mode the Roland has a far more functional features and easier setup and contains built in settings for most DAWS and Mainstage.


Edited by Dr Popper (02/06/14 08:00 PM)
_________________________
"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2227222 - 02/06/14 11:03 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1424
Well I had a chance to play the NP2, RD800, and CP4 back to back to back (quite literally) in my favorite music store here.

The RD800 does sound and play well. For strictly home use, no question I would go with the Roland. The action feels a little more solid than the PHA III and the new V-Piano Grand sample sounded good. I'd need to spend more time with it, but at the weight, length, and my general disappointment with SN samples in a live setting, I'll likely not buy another RD stage piano. Again though, for home use of a slab, it is a really good sounding and playing digital piano.

The CP4 actually sounded better through the headphones than when played through a keyboard amp at GC. No surprise there though, right? The action of the CP4 was really good. Unbelievable they put an action that good into a board that weighs less than 40lbs. I need to go and spend more time with it. Every time I've sat in front of a mix listening to a Yamaha I'm impressed with the ability of the sound to cut through and in a live setting the Yamaha sound works. Forget the marketing fluff that's lost in a live mix. With this said, it still sounds so much like my Yamaha P80 I had in 2004.

Having owned the Nord Piano 88 and Nord Piano 2 since January of 2011, I still believe for live work, the Nord is the best option. The action is not awful contrary to what is often said. It's very playable and more importantly it connects as good as any with the sounds. Nord has actually recently added a software update that added a 'heavier' velocity setting to make the action feel heavier. It is indeed better. Is the action as good as the other two boards? No, but it's a better playing action than just about anything outside of the better Yamahas, Rolands, and Kawais. Certainly better than Korgs, Kurzweils, Casios, and others I've played. It's a compromise no doubt though. The very fact that Nord is constantly updating, adding features, adding samples, and adding hardware in a such a uniquely diverse but focused approach is what is so appealing. Their samples are incredibly diverse and playable. Build quality too is above both the Yamaha and the Roland who've now gone to plastics to save weight. The Nord, while not the choice for home use is about the best thing I can think of for live use. It's almost not worth comparing the Nord with the others since the Nord is so dedicated for live playing while the others seem far more home-use friendly.
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#2227228 - 02/06/14 11:17 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Zac!

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2227286 - 02/07/14 02:20 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
david_ka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 93
Loc: Sweden
Kawai james, I donīt know:) Layer sounds from the nord with piano from Yamaha. Play it on the yamaha and control the volume of the layer with the sliders. Same thing if I at some point want to use a computer with software sounds.

As you can see Iīm not really sure but i donīt want to buy a stagepiano and find out after a while that it canīt do all I need.

I bought the electro 3 and used it at the same time as playing guitar and it worked pretty well, because I hade guitars and amps to carry I needed something lightweight. Since we are two guitarplayers in the band I gave up the guitar to only play piano/organ/synth.
ou
And I feel limitied with the electro, I canīt layer sound, the pianofeel isnīt so good. But it is lightweight and thats not what you can say about the rd800.

I have not played the nord piano 2 so much but it could be an alternativ if it had the organ, it doesnīt. I donīt mind using to boards but I want to be able to use one if I need to. Sometimes itīs overkill using two keyboards.

And I want good piano action, not to much compromise on that. Otherwise I might as well use semiweighted keys.
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#2227287 - 02/07/14 02:21 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
david_ka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/07/13
Posts: 93
Loc: Sweden
I bet the kawai mp7 would be all Iīm lookinīfor, donīt you think:)
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#2227290 - 02/07/14 02:27 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Maybe. wink
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2227410 - 02/07/14 11:46 AM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Kawai James]
HisKidd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 198
Loc: AL/USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Maybe. wink


James, I know you can't comment on features of either the MP7 or the MP11, and I want ask you to do that. I've noted (as others on the board) that Kawai has added features to its MP6 piano that are not contained on the MP10. Though costing much less than the MP10 the MP6 offers some incredible features missing on the more expensive board. It's a great controller with its 4 zones, its added sounds, additional save to presets (256), and it's thorough tweakability. Here's hoping that the new MP7 will also have it's own "stand alone" strong features! Can't wait to see what's in store for the next generation of Kawai stage pianos!
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Keyboards are the best therapy I know of...
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#2227614 - 02/07/14 07:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
The MP10 adopted a new 'Sections' approach, which was very different to previous MP models, while the MP6 retained the traditional 'Zones' functionality.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2227618 - 02/07/14 07:27 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: anotherscott]
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1739
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I was dropping them all the time with strings layered with Italian grand on the top and a mellotron pad on the bottom. Pad would always drop on sustain.

Ah. The piano layer has nothing to do with it, since piano has its own polyphony. It's the fact that you were using two synth sounds (strings + mellotron) in the synth section that has 18-note polyphony, in conjunction with the sustain pedal that can make 18 notes go fast.

A polyphony of 18 sounds (pardon the pun) absurdly low. The piano section has a polyphony 40 - 60. I thought, if you pay multiple kilo $s, then you are "entitled" to 128 polyphony these days? Any rationale for these low numbers from Nord?


Edited by doremi (02/07/14 07:37 PM)
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#2227629 - 02/07/14 07:52 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: doremi]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3215
Originally Posted By: doremi
A polyphony of 18 sounds (pardon the pun) absurdly low. The piano section has a polyphony 40 -60. Any rationale for these low numbers from Nord?

I don't know of any rationale, but despite the "low" piano polyphony of 40-60, I don't remember ever seeing anyone complain about it in actual use, either. (Even Dr Popper complained about losing pad notes, not piano notes.) They probably have a very intelligent algorithm for managing it. I've mentioned before that I was able to play a passage that caused dropped notes on a board with 64 note polyphony, yet the same passage played fine on another board with 32 note polyphony, so the numbers alone really don't tell the story. People do sometimes mention reasons they aren't fans of the Nord pianos, but as far as I've seen, polyphony issues has never been one of them.

Virtual analog synthesis generally has somewhat low polyphony. It's often not an issue, since those sounds are usually played with little or no sustain pedal use. But for comparison, the Studiologic Sledge is 16, Waldorf Blofeld is 25, King Korg is 24, MicroKorgs are 4 to 8, Arturia Origin is 32. (Actual analog synths are 1 to 12.)

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#2227651 - 02/07/14 08:12 PM Re: Yamaha CP4 vs Roland RD800? [Re: Musical Dan]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3049
Loc: Oregon
I believe that Nord's polyphony count is for stereo voices, which would equate to a polyphony of 80-120 in a "standard" DP.
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