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#2223271 - 01/30/14 06:11 PM Once you go AP you don't go back
Mken Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/09/13
Posts: 96
Not to sound like SL but once you go acoustic can you really go back?

I spent a day in Manchester and wandered into Dawsons, had a noodle on their FP80, touch felt way too light, and brick on pedal seemed to be fine (lacked string resonance and it didn't go as mushy as an AP).

Maybe it was the built in speakers which limited it.

Went to fiddle with their 700NX wasn't plugged in but the touch was firmer but still felt kinda light.

My thought is, once you go AP can you ever really go back? I was initially interested in the RD64 as a travel piano but the touch seemed kind of slow... and 64 keys while being 76keys long is a waste.
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#2223277 - 01/30/14 06:35 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
bennevis Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5281
Seems like an odd statement (or is it a question?) wink .

There are many people - myself included - who grew up with APs, but discovered the advantages of DPs late in life. In my case, I'm lucky that I found the right DP at the right time (i.e. when the V-Piano appeared, which behaves uncannily like the real thing in a way no other DP has then, nor since), otherwise, I'd have been looking forward hopefully, at each coming NAMM, for a DP that I can finally live with as my only piano at home. Much like many others here, albeit (maybe) not for the same reasons.

But no matter how much I adore my DP, and enjoy playing it, I cannot deny that I'd still rather have a Bösendorfer Imperial, or a Fazioli F278/F308. Why, I'd even rather have a Steinway D (very much far down on my list of preferred pianos) grin .

However, I live in the real world, and I don't own a mansion, and I have neighbors. So, I play my DP at home, and occasionally moonlight on acoustics (OK, at least once a month these days, as I have a regular monthly recital on an acoustic grand). Or to put it another way, since 2010, I've been going back and forth between my DP and APs.
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#2223280 - 01/30/14 06:43 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3708
Loc: Northern England.
I coundn`t go back to an AP. Wouldn`t thank you for a Steinway, Bosend. or anything else. If I want to play an AP soundalike, I de-tune my DGX . . . . ! Still sounds better.
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#2223289 - 01/30/14 07:08 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: peterws]
Marko in Boston Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/12
Posts: 903
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: peterws
If I want to play an AP soundalike, I de-tune my DGX . . . .


I occasionally set my ES7 temperament to Werckmeister or Kirnberger just to get that AP feeling.
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KAWAI ES7 | ROLAND RD-800 | TRAYNOR K4 | YAMAHA STAGEPAS 400i | PRESONUS ERIS 5 & T10 | SHURE SRH1540 | SENNHEISER HD380 | K&M OMEGA

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#2223300 - 01/30/14 07:37 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
I pretty regularly perform on a couple of acoustics and though they are both deeply flawed I enjoy them. I couldn't reasonably get much use out of them in my home, though. My kids would be all over them and I wouldn't be able to play after they go to bed. Just too dang big and loud. Maybe some day I'll have a big house with a room where a grand piano won't bother anyone and an acoustic that I really like.

Until then I always practice on my DP and I really like it. It's unobtrusive, quiet, and fun. The digital aspect of it is pretty great in itself. Always gives me something to talk about on the forum. At times in my life I may have an acoustic, but I will always have a digital.

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#2223308 - 01/30/14 07:54 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
guyl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/16/13
Posts: 111
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Digital pianos will never replace a fine acoustic piano, but they sure supplement them well in several ways: portability, for recording at home (miking an acoustic is difficult and expensive), playing silently, leyring sounds, etc.

Digitials have made piano playing possible in many additionnal situations.

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#2223317 - 01/30/14 08:22 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: guyl]
Amaruk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 805
Loc: New England, USA
Originally Posted By: guyl
Digital pianos will never replace a fine acoustic piano, but they sure supplement them well in several ways: portability, for recording at home (miking an acoustic is difficult and expensive), playing silently, leyring sounds, etc.

Digitials have made piano playing possible in many additionnal situations.


I completely agree! smile
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#2223322 - 01/30/14 08:36 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
I don't know I have 2 concert grand AP's and still play my other boards much more regularly.
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Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2223325 - 01/30/14 08:39 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Dr Popper]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1896
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I don't know I have 2 concert grand AP's and still play my other boards much more regularly.


How could you not know you have 2 concert grand AP's ?
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2223360 - 01/30/14 10:16 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: dmd]
minstrelman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/07
Posts: 241
Loc: buffalo
Originally Posted By: dmd
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
I don't know I have 2 concert grand AP's and still play my other boards much more regularly.


How could you not know you have 2 concert grand AP's ?



too funny Don......LOL
I am a rank amateur. but very into playing.
was limited to DP for decades, Yamaha pf88 (which I liked a lot), but craved an AP. finally got one 7 years ago. never touched a DP again until 3 weeks ago. my AP was in need of repair. I was forced to play my Yamaha DGX-505. I liked it. a lot. I went in search of a new DP. got a Kawai CA65. the AP is fixed. its cool, a Knabe WKV121. I love the CA65 DP. I played it yesterday. it was freakin heaven on earth baby.
so all those years that I looked down my nose at DP's. and look at me now. things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.......
and speaking of things that make you go hmmmmm, now that you mention it, how could someone have 2 grand pianos and not know it?
I mean I could, I suppose, sorta kinda maybe understand maybe if they only had one......and it was a like a super tiny one.......hmmmmmmmmm

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#2223361 - 01/30/14 10:19 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 344
Loc: San Diego, CA
Can't speak for others, but I do all my practicing on an acoustic grand. However, when I play for pleasure, I'm as likely to sit down at my DP and synths as my AP. For me, they are different musical instruments and I greatly enjoy both.

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#2223373 - 01/30/14 10:49 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
I spend most of my piano time on my RD-700NX -- always with headphones. It doesn't disrupt others in the house; it's always in tune; its regulation is consistent -- even -- from bottom to top. Out of regulation APs have always annoyed me. Tuning and voicing issues also annoy. I like watching the development of DPs; I'm grateful for their comparative inexpensiveness; I like their variety of sounds (concert grand bright; concert grand dark; small grand; upright; old upright; honky tonk; historical piano), though harpsichords I can generally live without.
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#2223378 - 01/30/14 10:58 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
i wouldn't get nearly as much playing/practice in if i didn't have a DP. i am somewhat of an ADD player anyway and wind up improvising and playing song fragments 90% of the time, and this drives my wife crazy. so the headset gives her peace and me privacy. I really do need to move my AP into a smaller, quieter room if i am going to play it regularly. it just generates too much volume and takes over the entire house. i also am incredibly finicky (anal) about "tuning". if the acoustic is just the slightest bit detuned i absolutely notice it and give up playing. If you live in a humid, changeable climate as i do in the Southeastern USA, you just can't keep an AP in good tuning for very long.


if you told me playing DP's destroys technique i wouldn't argue that at all. its far too easy to turn the volume down to accommodate too heavy a touch. life is a tradeoff.
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Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
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#2223385 - 01/30/14 11:04 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: kippesc]
iceporky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: kippesc
I spend most of my piano time on my RD-700NX -- always with headphones.


Just curious. Do you still own the N2, but rather play on the RD?
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#2223388 - 01/30/14 11:15 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
iceporky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: Mken
Went to fiddle with their 700NX wasn't plugged in but the touch was firmer but still felt kinda light.


Just a note. I think It's hard to gauge a key-bed when the DP is not turned on. For me, the keys on my CA95 feel mushy when it's not turned on; it feels much better once it's on.
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#2223403 - 01/30/14 11:53 PM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: iceporky]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I've been fortunate enough to own 3 great pianos since 1985--a Yamaha C7E, S6 and now my D. Also have been blessed to have always had a detached space from the house to practice in. I'm well aware that makes a huge difference with family, wife or neighbor concerns.

The older, and hopefully better I get, the more I appreciate a good serious instrument over any DP. Plus the space to practice when and what I want to at any time. Then again, I'm a long time pro and have worked and set up my lifestyle where all that takes priority over everything else.

Like I've stated more then once here, DPs only exist in my world for gigging. My Nord piano sits in its case until the next gig. I try very hard not to have to play pop/rock music for a living (although sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do), don't futz around in *the studio* laying down tracks and overall don't really find anything too inspirational in playing them.

At NAMM I briefly played a Bluthner 49" upright that was very nice. I could see myself being very content with something like that over any Avantgrand or other high end digital as my only piano, if for some reason I had to move and downsize at some point in my life.. It had a very nice touch and tone ( yes would've been nice to hear it better outside the cacophony of NAMM), for an upright, that I thought was very musically inspiring. It just seemed real and not sterile.

I did enjoy however , when I owned the CP5, blowing off steam at the end of an intense practice session by playing along with "modern jazz " drum groove. It was a nice break sometimes from setting the metronome on 2 & 4 and blowing over tunes.

I keep up with the newest releases like anyone else here, but really know that anything new in electronics is short lived with regard to long term musical satisfaction. For me after a short time and the newness wears off it's still always--it ain't a piano. wink

That said, I do strive to make what I do have sound optimum on gigs, by investing in higher end sound systems. And as long as I'm gigging I will replace whatever I'm using if I feel there's enough of a sonic and overall playability improvement. But I can honestly say--looking forward to the day when I never have to hit an *on* switch on an electronic keyboard.
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2005 NY Steinway D, Yamaha CP4, CP5 (home use) , RCF TT08A, TT22A speakers

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#2223432 - 01/31/14 01:26 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: iceporky]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 407
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: iceporky
Originally Posted By: kippesc
I spend most of my piano time on my RD-700NX -- always with headphones.


Just curious. Do you still own the N2, but rather play on the RD?


I play the RD mostly. The N2 doesn't sound very good through phones, so it's something I tend to play when no one is home. I like the action on the N2 and the record function (for practicing). I wish it didn't have a noise gate, preventing the use of software pianos. But the noise gate is there for a reason: Last month, I had a shielded Monster cable plugged into the line ins and was hearing a radio station through the DP. Completely odd, this piano. That's the type of thing that you'd see back in the 70s. I like the N2. I'll probably keep it a very long time. But it has its quirks.
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Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#2223448 - 01/31/14 02:34 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: kippesc]
enzo.sandrolini Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 275
Loc: Europe - France
Originally Posted By: kippesc


I play the RD mostly. The N2 doesn't sound very good through phones,

Hello, I agree, but I found that through the multiple speaker, then the sound is really good
Then the multi channel sampling is effective

What is your opinion on this ? (I am curious as I would like to buy one N2 grin )


Edited by enzo.sandrolini (01/31/14 02:35 AM)
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#2223463 - 01/31/14 04:36 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 821
Coming from AP, once you go DP you always go back. smile

Dr P - what are you missing in your grands? Rhodes sounds? Layers? Effects? Accompaniment? I guess your tendency toward DPs must have to do with the kind of music you are making wink

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#2223466 - 01/31/14 05:05 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: kippesc]
iceporky Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/26/13
Posts: 150
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: kippesc
I like the N2. I'll probably keep it a very long time. But it has its quirks.


No wonder. For a while, I thought you like the key action of RD more than the N2.
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#2223467 - 01/31/14 05:13 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5277
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I bought my first acoustic piano back in 1971, a Yamaha upright.

I bought a Yamaha C3 in 1990 (in the US) and brought that over here when I moved. I traded in that C3 about 14 or 15 years ago for a GranTouch, the predecessor of the AvantGrand.

There was nothing wrong per se with the C3, it was just a very loud piano. I had the piano quieted down but in a house with wooden floors the sound travels very well. With that piano in the living room it's not possible for anyone else to watch the TV or talk comfortably on the telephone.



Once you go AP you don't go back

I disagree.
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#2223476 - 01/31/14 06:37 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Mken]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3708
Loc: Northern England.
"Once you get swap your acoustic for a digital, you won`t look back"

WHO will put that in the Piano Forum? No good me doin` it. They know me now . . .
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#2223493 - 01/31/14 08:05 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Dave Horne]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 540
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


There was nothing wrong per se with the C3, it was just a very loud piano. I had the piano quieted down but in a house with wooden floors the sound travels very well. With that piano in the living room it's not possible for anyone else to watch the TV or talk comfortably on the telephone.



Once you go AP you don't go back

I disagree.



ditto on both points with Dave. My steinie takes over the house when i play. i have it in too large of a room and i probably have it positioned wrong as the room and the wood floors really resonate. i even put custom sized foam baffling under the soundboard to quiet it down but she still sings like a 300 lb diva. i thought about moving it to a small study but then our friends couldn't come stare at the pictures of our family that sit on it and that would be such a shame.

so i hide in my little basement studio with my Vpiano and Ivory II and am quite content. Plus working with the technology i think helps my aging brain. its fun.
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
Ivory II Grands, Italian, American D; Galaxy Vintage D; Alicia's Keys; Garritan Steinway; Galaxy Pianos; The Grand 3

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#2223497 - 01/31/14 08:21 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: bfb]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12056
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: bfb
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne


There was nothing wrong per se with the C3, it was just a very loud piano. I had the piano quieted down but in a house with wooden floors the sound travels very well. With that piano in the living room it's not possible for anyone else to watch the TV or talk comfortably on the telephone.



Once you go AP you don't go back

I disagree.



ditto on both points with Dave. My steinie takes over the house when i play. i have it in too large of a room and i probably have it positioned wrong as the room and the wood floors really resonate. i even put custom sized foam baffling under the soundboard to quiet it down but she still sings like a 300 lb diva. i thought about moving it to a small study but then our friends couldn't come stare at the pictures of our family that sit on it and that would be such a shame.

so i hide in my little basement studio with my Vpiano and Ivory II and am quite content. Plus working with the technology i think helps my aging brain. its fun.


Maybe it's the fact that I'm an opera singer so I'm used to making lots of noise (and hubby is used to hiding somewhere else). When we moved to FL the room that was going to house the Petrof 9' had carpeting. We soon removed that and installed hardwood floors. Now the piano sounds so much nicer! I will once in a while turn to a DP for silent practice, but not usually. If I'm up, hubby is too, and he can put the TV on headphones if he wants to.

My VPC, which I love, will soon be relocated to my school, so unless I want to play on the MOX6 (and I'd never do that for a piano), I'll be making noise on my AP.

Music is meant to be noisy, otherwise it won't be heard. Then what use is it? smile
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2223502 - 01/31/14 08:28 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Morodiene]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3708
Loc: Northern England.
"Music is meant to be noisy, otherwise it won't be heard. Then what use is it? smile"

Pardon?
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#2223520 - 01/31/14 09:09 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: kippesc]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 263
Originally Posted By: kippesc
Originally Posted By: iceporky
Originally Posted By: kippesc
I spend most of my piano time on my RD-700NX -- always with headphones.


Just curious. Do you still own the N2, but rather play on the RD?


I play the RD mostly. The N2 doesn't sound very good through phones, so it's something I tend to play when no one is home. I like the action on the N2 and the record function (for practicing). I wish it didn't have a noise gate, preventing the use of software pianos. But the noise gate is there for a reason: Last month, I had a shielded Monster cable plugged into the line ins and was hearing a radio station through the DP. Completely odd, this piano. That's the type of thing that you'd see back in the 70s. I like the N2. I'll probably keep it a very long time. But it has its quirks.

I once contacted Yamaha about the "noise gate" issue. They vehemently denied that a noise gate existed on the Avantgrand, and further confirmed that I should not have any problems running virtual instrument through its audio system. Based on all the comments I've read here, I believe it does exist, yet they've opted to deny it.

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#2223527 - 01/31/14 09:16 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: peterws]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12056
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: peterws
"Music is meant to be noisy, otherwise it won't be heard. Then what use is it? smile"

Pardon?
In other words, what's the point of making music if all you do is practice with headphones? It is meant to communicate emotion through sound. Sometimes you communicate with yourself, but really, it's best enjoyed when sharing with others. People who play exclusively on headphones really suffer the most as they tend to not be able to project their feelings. It takes some work to help them overcome this, but it starts by taking off the headphones.

If that means practicing at hours when others won't be disturbed, then do so. I'm just not a fan of the whole "not wanting to disturb family members" argument.
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2223529 - 01/31/14 09:27 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: maurus]
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/09
Posts: 1718
Loc: Hancock Park LA (not again)
Originally Posted By: maurus
Coming from AP, once you go DP you always go back. smile

Dr P - what are you missing in your grands? Rhodes sounds? Layers? Effects? Accompaniment? I guess your tendency toward DPs must have to do with the kind of music you are making wink


I'm not really missing anything its just that the CF6 is in the foyer and the wife and kids get $hitty with me if I go up and bash away on it. The C7 is in my studio but ..its ummmm got a lot of stuff kind of on top of it at the moment.


Edited by Dr Popper (01/31/14 09:28 AM)
_________________________
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Disclosure : I am professionally supported by but not beholden to various musical instrument manufactures including Yamaha

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#2223537 - 01/31/14 09:55 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Dr Popper]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 12056
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Dr Popper
Originally Posted By: maurus
Coming from AP, once you go DP you always go back. smile

Dr P - what are you missing in your grands? Rhodes sounds? Layers? Effects? Accompaniment? I guess your tendency toward DPs must have to do with the kind of music you are making wink


I'm not really missing anything its just that the CF6 is in the foyer and the wife and kids get $hitty with me if I go up and bash away on it. The C7 is in my studio but ..its ummmm got a lot of stuff kind of on top of it at the moment.
I'd be happy to take that off your hands and help you free up some space smile
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Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#2223541 - 01/31/14 10:00 AM Re: Once you go AP you don't go back [Re: Morodiene]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5281
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
In other words, what's the point of making music if all you do is practice with headphones? It is meant to communicate emotion through sound. Sometimes you communicate with yourself, but really, it's best enjoyed when sharing with others. People who play exclusively on headphones really suffer the most as they tend to not be able to project their feelings. It takes some work to help them overcome this, but it starts by taking off the headphones.

If that means practicing at hours when others won't be disturbed, then do so. I'm just not a fan of the whole "not wanting to disturb family members" argument.

Ha! Try telling my parents that when I was young - the Yamaha vertical I learnt on was (and still is) just a few feet away from the TV. When I practiced on it, and anyone wanted to watch the TV, they just turned the volume up until it all but drowned out the piano. Most of the time, to avoid my ears getting a battering, I just engaged the "practice pedal" on the piano which clamps a huge felt pad down across all the strings. I can barely hear what I'm playing, but at least whoever is watching the TV can watch in peace......

As for not being able to playing with feeling while practising with headphones, I have absolutely no trouble (BTW, my singing days in a choir were a long time ago) - in fact, when I subsequently play on an acoustic grand for an audience, I sometimes have to 'tone down' some of my 'emotional excesses' to avoid them thinking my playing is OTT. (They probably still do - there're some things I won't compromise on.... wink ).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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