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#2221596 - 01/27/14 06:04 PM M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Hoping that someone can help....I've just hung a set of WNG composite repetitions on an Aolian era (1981) M & H BB. The repetitions that I am replacing appear to be the originals. I ordered the proper set with the heels attached.

What I'm finding is that in order to achieve proper drop, I'm having to drive down the drop screw till it's practically flush to the hammer flange. The thing that I'm noticing is that the original repetitions have a fairly thick lever pad (4 mm) as opposed to the 2 mm pad on the WNG's.

Is building up the pad my only choice? If so, what would be the best material?

Thanks very much.

Wayne

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#2221655 - 01/27/14 08:26 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: wdkelper


What I'm finding is that in order to achieve proper drop, I'm having to drive down the drop screw till it's practically flush to the hammer flange. The thing that I'm noticing is that the original repetitions have a fairly thick lever pad (4 mm) as opposed to the 2 mm pad on the WNG's. Is building up the pad my only choice? If so, what would be the best material?


Greetings,
Are the drop screws so low that they are coming out, or loose, or too low to be adjusted? If so, then building the pad up might be the thing to do, otherwise, I would just leave them out there near the end of their adjustment. With use, they should come up.
Regards,

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#2221676 - 01/27/14 09:29 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Ed Foote]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the reply, Ed. The screws are just too low to be easily adjusted with my regulating tool.

If I was to build them up, would it be preferable to take off the existing pad, or could I glue something onto the existing pad? I believe WNG uses some sort of synthetic material on their pads.

Thanks

Wayne

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#2221687 - 01/27/14 09:59 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1999
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I would remove the too thin pads and replace with woven action cloth of the appropriate thickness.

As Ed points out-with wear the drop screw must be raised over time-so when the parts are new the drop screw is probably as low as it will ever be.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2221704 - 01/27/14 11:15 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
If you need to build up the drop pads, assuming the parts geometry is not the issue, you can easily do that by glueing on small squares (or round punchings) of buckskin or ecsaine. This is the material you will find on good quality parts. Action cloth on the wippens would not be my first choice.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#2221711 - 01/27/14 11:53 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Supply]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 259
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
When I needed to refine the thickness of the rep lever unstop felt, I used Ecsaine. Is the action spread optimal?
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2221725 - 01/28/14 01:39 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
You might contact WNG and ask if they have longer drop screws? Did you install new hammershanks as well? If so you might find that a smaller knuckle would be advantageous and help with the drop screw situation as well.


Edited by Dale Fox (01/28/14 01:40 AM)
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#2221758 - 01/28/14 04:52 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Dale Fox]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2081
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Dale Fox
You might contact WNG and ask if they have longer drop screws? Did you install new hammershanks as well? If so you might find that a smaller knuckle would be advantageous and help with the drop screw situation as well.


It seems odd to me that you're asking here rather than contacting WNG. It sounds like you are using mismatched parts to read the post.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#2221785 - 01/28/14 08:12 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: David Jenson]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Thanks for all the replies...

I have been in contact with WNG through this process, although I have yet to hear back on this particular issue...wanted to get some other thoughts on trying to solve this.

The spread is 4.5", which WNG believes to be correct. Perhaps someone could confirm that. (Aeolian 1981 M & H BB). Hammer shanks were not replaced. The geometry of the repetitions appear to be identical to the originals, other than the thickness of the drop screw pad.

One thing I did notice, and this also was the case with the original repetitions, is that the capstans are lining up on the forward side of the heel (towards the player)....I fooled around with a sample from the kit, moving the heel forward as a test, but it didn't solve the issue. Is this alignment a concern?

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#2221842 - 01/28/14 11:10 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1999
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
If ecsaine was available in twice the thickness you see on knuckles and backchecks I would like to have some. I don't think ecsaine is hygroskopic which is a plus for stability. In general it sure beats buckskin.

But I prefer the the more quiet firm, woven cloth for the drop screw.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2221894 - 01/28/14 01:15 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1134
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: wdkelper

One thing I did notice, and this also was the case with the original repetitions, is that the capstans are lining up on the forward side of the heel (towards the player)....I fooled around with a sample from the kit, moving the heel forward as a test, but it didn't solve the issue. Is this alignment a concern?


Greetings,
Not really, as long as it doesn't hit the edges of the capstan felt. It may be that you have a very low action ratio, and moving the capstans could change a lot of things for the better. I wouldn't trust any action geometry from this era of Mason and Hamlin.

Moving the capstan pad doesn't change the relationship of the balance rail/capstan/whippen flange. It does allow for very fine tuning of the capstan's contact point, allowing it to be placed on the line of coincidence (magic line) at virtually any place you want it. The size of the heel, its placement, and the size of the knuckle all bear on the relationship of the contact point to the magic line.

I prefer the contact reach the magic line at the point of let-off, since the additional friction that this might create is negated with the anodized capstans from WNG. This allows for maximum ratio to occur when the hammer is moving at its fastest. I think, (and build accordingly), that during the first instant of key movement, the inertial resistance of the action dwarfs whatever friction might exist at the capstan.
Regards,

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#2222038 - 01/28/14 07:26 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 259
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
It could be that the top action is a bit too high. What is the String Height, Hammer Center Height, Wippen Center Height, Hammer Bore?
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2222428 - 01/29/14 10:10 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted By: wdkelper

One thing I did notice, and this also was the case with the original repetitions, is that the capstans are lining up on the forward side of the heel (towards the player)....I fooled around with a sample from the kit, moving the heel forward as a test, but it didn't solve the issue. Is this alignment a concern?


The heels are moveable so that the capstan position can be matched. While moving the heel will get you a better capstan alignment it won't change your other issue.
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#2222625 - 01/29/14 02:59 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Jon Page]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Not very pretty by the looks of it....

In the bass section:
String Height 206 - 209mm
Hammer Centre Pin Height: 152mm
Wippen Centre Height: 86mm
Hammer Bore: 60 - 61 mm

Mid Section:
String Height 198 - 200mm
Hammer Centre Pin Height: 152mm
Wippen Centre Height: 86mm
Hammer bore: 54.5 - 56 mm

etc...

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#2222796 - 01/29/14 08:50 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 621
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: wdkelper
The spread is 4.5", which WNG believes to be correct.


Wait a sec... 4.5" spread is off the deep end...too much. WNG shank/whip dimensions mostly prefer a pretty low 112mm(4.409)spread. This 4.5 will require setting the jack way advanced in the rep lever window, and will also pull the rep lever cushion unnecessarily far away from the drop screw.

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#2222857 - 01/29/14 10:52 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: jim ialeggio]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Thanks for that, Jim...just using the WNG repetitions, not their shanks. Good info, none the less.

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#2222887 - 01/29/14 11:54 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1056
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted By: wdkelper
Not very pretty by the looks of it....

In the bass section:
String Height 206 - 209mm
Hammer Centre Pin Height: 152mm
Wippen Centre Height: 86mm
Hammer Bore: 60 - 61 mm

Mid Section:
String Height 198 - 200mm
Hammer Centre Pin Height: 152mm
Wippen Centre Height: 86mm
Hammer bore: 54.5 - 56 mm

etc...


Hammer bore seems a bit long in the midrange. Might try a shorter hammer bore and see how the drop screw looks with that? Are the drop screws as much a problem in the bass?
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#2222969 - 01/30/14 07:04 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 259
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
The difference between HCH and WCH is 66 mm, 64 mm would be better, raise the wippen rail 2 mm. A 114.3 mm spread seems like a lot, does the core of the knuckle align with the jack center at rest? Read: "Action Elevations" by Bob Hohf in the May 2000 PTJ.

Your hammer bore is too long by about 4mm bass, 6mm treble. They might have a pitch forwards to hit the strings squarely. Check the strike with a square. If the hammers are under striking, a lot can be gained by lowering the top action. I have lowered the top action by cutting into the cleats with a MultiTool. You don't have to cut the entire length, just the portion under the feet. Make a tapered jig to guide the blade (I did this by stacking front rail punchings under a metal strip). You might need to lower the front more than the rear.

On the one that I did, I needed to lower the rear by 4 mm and the front by 1 mm (too great of a slope from the factory) to bring the (HCH-WCH) and Bore workable. So maybe you need to lower the front more for the Bore and taper the rear for the slope to get the 64 difference rather than lower everything and raise the wip rail 2 mm. Or some combination there of. A lot of figgrin' to do.

The test for all this is how improved is the regulation, touch weight and friction.


Edited by Jon Page (01/30/14 07:18 AM)
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2222982 - 01/30/14 07:58 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Dale Fox]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Thanks Dale...the drop screw settings are pretty consistent across the whole action.

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#2222983 - 01/30/14 08:08 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Jon Page]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Great ideas Jon...thanks for that!

Funny, I was eyeing up the top action yesterday, wondering how I might take that on...thanks for the guidance. I'll focus on the wippen rail/knuckle alignment today...much less invasive!

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#2222990 - 01/30/14 08:26 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 259
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Start with the hammer strike angle. If the hammers are pitched forwards and hitting squarely, then you're stuck with the height. If they are under striking, you'll need to lower the top action to improve the strike and regulation; there will also be an improvement to the tone, especially in the treble.
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2223809 - 01/31/14 06:52 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 259
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
If you decide to lower the top action be mindful of a slight alteration of the strike point. The strike point will move slightly forwards as you lower the center height and you might need to relocate the action further in, mostly at the treble end. Another option would have been to relocate the top action back but you are already at the front of the cushion.

What is the Key Ratio? Is the jack clearing the knuckle sufficiently or being pushed into the stop felt?

On one action, the top action was so mispositioned that I need to elevate the front by 7 mm and the rear by 4 mm. This rotated the hammers back and caused them to hit the belly rail in the last treble section, so I needed to rehang those. The action regulated perfectly and touch weight returned to an acceptable level.
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2231946 - 02/15/14 09:30 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Jon Page]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Thought that I would update those who were helping me sort out this issue.......

I started out by checking the hammer to string relationship and found that the hammers were in fact pitched forward to be square, so lowering the stack wasn't going to be an option.
The good news is that my HCH was actually 2 mm lower (150 mm) than I initially thought. Certainly pays to measure and re-measure and re-measure!

One thing that I didn't mention was that I had hung a set of Ari Isaac's hammers on this piano this past fall. They were considerably heaver than the old set, and I was experiencing heavy down weight (65 - 67 grams), which I was hoping to deal with at the same time.

I ended up moving the whippen rail forward and upward, which brought the spread down to 112.5mm from 114.3 mm, and the HCH-WCH differential down to 84mm from 86mm. This adjustment gave me a good jack to knuckle alignment. The old whippens, which appeared to be the originals, had a flange centre pin to jack centre pin measurement of 100 mm, as opposed to the 99 mm WNG's.

I then moved the capstans forward and moved the heels to mate up. My down weight is now 51 - 54 grams, and the heel-capstan contact point is under the magic line at rest. The heels had to move out to their most forward slot.

I was concerned about the lack of after touch, but once I got to regulating, things came together quite nicely. My dip rides between 10 - 10.2 mm and my blow distance averages around 45.5 mm......and the drop screws started coming up. They are still on the low side, but not as they were.

I'm very happy with the results....the combination of these hammers and this set of repetitions has brought this piano to life...I'm quite excited to start recording, which was what I was hoping for when I bought this then very timid instrument last spring.

My thanks to those that helped me puzzle this out...I've learnt an incredible amount reading through the archives of this forum, including discovering the WNG repetitions and Ari's hammers. I live in a fairly remote location in northern Canada, and one has to pretty much fend for one's self up here.

Next will be sorting out some false beats in the treble section!





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#2239077 - 02/28/14 02:29 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
I posted this snippet of a test recording of this instrument in another forum yesterday....thought some of you may be interested in hearing where it all landed.

https://soundcloud.com/wayne-kelso/m-h-bb

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#2240140 - 03/02/14 01:41 PM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: wdkelper]
Steve in Cincy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/09/11
Posts: 85
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
Wayne, that's a fascinating rebuild story. Could you post some pictures of your newly-worked WNG action, please? I would love to see how that turned out.

Thanks.
_________________________
Regards,
Steve Schutte
Cincinnati
1979 6'7 Kimball Grand
1902 6' Hazelton Bros. Grand (project piano)

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#2241132 - 03/04/14 08:22 AM Re: M & H - WNG Repetition Install Issue [Re: Steve in Cincy]
wdkelper Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/13
Posts: 21
Loc: Canada
Hi Steve,

Happy to post a few pics....


Out with the old....these appeared to be the originals, but I'm not sure.



In addition to having to remove material from the whippen rail for clearance, I also had to grind a few of the brackets.



Hanging the new repetitions....



One of the first issues was that there was inadequate clearance between the hammer tails and the helper spring extensions. H & M advised to remove wood from the tails or lob off the extensions..



I chose the latter......



The capstan alignment was also bad......note the let-off buttons on either side of the bracket. That is where they needed to be prior to fooling with the geometry.



The alignment after moving both the capstans (to improve downweight) and the heels......


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