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#2224104 - 02/01/14 10:21 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
I performed Flor Peters' Concerto for Organ and Piano last year. The piano was tuned with moderate stretch, but tight octaves in the treble due to so many parallel octave runs. We were unaware of major intonation issues, possibly because of the structure of the work. i didn't think about it at the time, but maybe Peters understood some of the issues discussed here and took that into consideration when writing it. Very fun piece to play.

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#2224120 - 02/01/14 10:57 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: prout]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: prout
I performed Flor Peters' Concerto for Organ and Piano last year. The piano was tuned with moderate stretch, but tight octaves in the treble due to so many parallel octave runs. We were unaware of major intonation issues, possibly because of the structure of the work. i didn't think about it at the time, but maybe Peters understood some of the issues discussed here and took that into consideration when writing it. Very fun piece to play.

Thanks for posting that. I was about to tell rxd there is no repertoire for piano and organ anyways so the problem is moot but I stand corrected already. I've seen some of those halleluja churches (not sure what the religion is precisely) in the southern US; I think organ-piano intonation is not on their minds at all.

Kees

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#2224136 - 02/01/14 11:33 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: DoelKees]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: prout
I performed Flor Peters' Concerto for Organ and Piano last year. The piano was tuned with moderate stretch, but tight octaves in the treble due to so many parallel octave runs. We were unaware of major intonation issues, possibly because of the structure of the work. i didn't think about it at the time, but maybe Peters understood some of the issues discussed here and took that into consideration when writing it. Very fun piece to play.

Thanks for posting that. I was about to tell rxd there is no repertoire for piano and organ anyways so the problem is moot but I stand corrected already. I've seen some of those halleluja churches (not sure what the religion is precisely) in the southern US; I think organ-piano intonation is not on their minds at all.

Kees


There is a reasonable amount of rep for organ piano. Here is a snippet of a work. Pretty good intonation to my ear anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKntVHs2ZAY

Edit: Not my taste by the way, but still well done.


Edited by prout (02/01/14 11:37 AM)

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#2224206 - 02/01/14 02:06 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: rxd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1077
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi,

Prout, Kees,

Perhaps rxd was referring to any two fixed-scale instruments, in a more general sense, that is how I understand his question. Sometime, when it comes to twin a piano and a second instrument (tuned by someone else), it could be, as I said, “uncomfortable”. And possibly it would be up to the tuner whether to “accommodate” or not. In any case, perhaps you can tell what that has to do with rxd’s lament on bleating pianos and pianos that sound inevitably sharp because of inharmonicity?


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Perfection is like a mirage; when conditions are right you can see it is possible, but every motion towards it makes it recede from you.


For me, Perfection is like Excellence: when conditions are right I can see it possible, perhaps any wrong notion (and/or posture) may cut it down.

Beyond that, I do not think the OP was about Perfection, but scorn and indignation.


Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: rxd
[quote=Minnesota Marty]Why is the assumption being made that "concert" tuning is the same as "studio" tuning? As a pianist who has been in both situations, it seems that the tuner plays a very different role in each type of activity.

In performance, I've never been given a lunch break between the 2nd and 3rd mvts. of a concerto. The demands are totally different and shouldn't be equated.


Care to expand on both these paragraphs, Marty? Neither of them seem to be saying anything unless I'm missing some humor.

Well, it is a combined response to a number of your recent posts.

You seem to be in a situation which is unlike the vast majority of highly skilled tuners. That is why I pointed out the difference in tuning for a concert or for a recording. 'Live in Concert' recording (or tuning) is very different than studio work. I'm thinking of the quest for perfection as it relates to the concept of this thread.

In the classical world, unlike the craziness of RA Hall, piano tuners aren't pushed into rush jobs or get yelled at by a stage manager. I'm sure there are some rush jobs in unusual situations, but that is not the standard procedure for concert work or recording. I'm sorry that you work in such a frenetic environment.

Why is it that you keep stating that wind instruments go flat at the top of their range and the reverse happens at the lower end? This is simply untrue. It is the other way around. Your 'stretch theory' just doesn't cut it.

Nothing I stated was meant to be humorous.


As I suspected.

We are involved in all kinds of situations. The RAH series always gives us 3-4 seperate tuning slots on production day, 2-3 of them entirelyl to ourselves. I doubt I ever said anything different.

The experience of my former student was not with the company I work with. it happened in America, as a matter of fact. not in a major centre. That would never be tolerated here.

Everything we do here is in well defined, pre arranged, usually copious time slots.

Have you been carrying this half understood notion all this time? I categorically never said that any wind instrument played flat in the upper register and sharp in the lower. I have, however stated that the piano is stretched more than any other instruments (skilfully played, of course).

Having been a highly skilled professional wind player myself at film studio and broadcast level and in many genres with many different combinations of instruments, of course I understand their intonation. Currently, I am called upon to coach young professional ensembles and more recently, string quartets as an extension of my work with piano trios.

I have spoken of certain situations where a wind player has played the odd note or two sharper than the rest of the orchestra that has affected the piano entry. That is not to say anything about general tendencies of an instrument.

Let me clear this misunderstanding once and for all. Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played. This is easily accomodated by skilled players. They will, of course, note that it is a different experience from playing with a well tuned organ at the same nominal pitch, for example.
This is, as I'm sure you understand, the effect of inharmonicity in pianos. I am assuming an understanding of this basic characteristic of pianos. Perhaps I shouldn't.

Pianos tuned with exaggerated stretch only makes matters worse. It is the exaggerated tuning of the piano that is at fault, not the other instruments. I can't stress this enough

To say that a piano is sharp is not the same as saying that any other instrument plays flat.

Thank you for bringing this up and giving me an opportunity to clarify what I may not have said very clearly and for anybody else who may have been carrying this misunderstanding.
Hopefully I didn't create more. this partial understanding explains a lot. But it still doesn't address your post in question.

I still don't understand about "lunch between movements" or the exact nature of the distinction you make between concert and studio. Perhaps another partial understanding? What was your frame of mind when you wrote it? Strange


Hi,

I do not have much time in these days, I would like to be able to seat down for a solid time an reply properly. Instead I have to be short.

rxd, you wrote:

..."Let me clear this misunderstanding once and for all. Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played. This is easily accomodated by skilled players. They will, of course, note that it is a different experience from playing with a well tuned organ at the same nominal pitch, for example.
This is, as I'm sure you understand, the effect of inharmonicity in pianos. I am assuming an understanding of this basic characteristic of pianos. Perhaps I shouldn't."...

Perhaps you want to expand on that. When I read that, I get the feeling we come from two different planets. Please note, nothing personal and I do not think it is a question of amount_or_type_of_experience... musician, playing concerts in duo (with a piano) or more, multi-instrument player, tunings in prestigous halls, for prestigious brands etc... in fact, all this calls for a question.

Recently I have had to "learn" that the piano is the most out-of-tune instrument on the stage (BB), some colleagues still wonder about the "point of best fit", others regret that the piano cannot adjust_in_real_time, and now I learn from you that "...Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played."

Humor: Do you tune pianos sharp?

Humor: Are pianos sharp when they are not flat?

Non-humor: Have you been tuning pianos while trying to get along with other orchestra instruments and players (as I understand from your other post)? In case, do you sacrifice your "intonation"?

Humor: Gosh, all these martyrs, it looks like an army.

Regards, a.c.
.


I question your sobriety on this post but to answer but one of your confusion of questions.

In blending their ensemble, don't all musicians give a little in their own intonation for the common good? Sacrifice is far too vulgar a word in this instance. To not accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making is somewhat akin to self pleasuring or have I lost you again?

Your grasp of the full effects of inharmonicity seem lacking. This surprises me.

Surely you heard the bleating of the piano in Bills' video in the "non vib" ensemble sections of that otherwise fine group of musicians. Didn't you hear the effects of an over stretched treble on the rest of the instruments. Or we're you, like most, only listening to the piano?
I know there are some people who enjoy the bleat of an overstretched piano. There are also those who get a similar cheap thrill from the bleat of a Mighty Wurlitzer theatre organ. you portray yourself as having higher sensibilities but you give yourself away.

I can make a trumpet bleat like a Spanish bullfighting band. Indeed, I have made a lot of money doing just that but I would not use that sound when I played under the baton of sir John Barbirolli. ( long story).. Similarly I can tune a piano so that it bleats but my default tuning is not to do that. Am I compromising the intonation of the piano when I make it bleat? Am I compromising (sacrificing?) the intonation of the piano when I use my skills to minimise that bleating?

I will minimise the bleating every time when an ensemble is to use the piano. We all heard how it compromised the ensemble sound in Bills' example. It would do the same thing in a string ensemble utilising piano.

My specialised knowledge as a musician only helps me explain this stuff. it is not the only reason I tune this way. The reason I tune this way is because all my colleagues who are involved in what is regarded as the finest tuning available for purpose tune this way.

My colleagues in NY, LA and London who I have worked alongside at different times in my life, all tune extremely similarly. There are many reasons that one piano company is used for the vast majority of top line commercial recordings by major companies and one of them is the way they are tuned by that companies' specialist staff tuners. It is also the tone regulation by those who specialise in this alone. Many of the highly regarded European record companies record in London studios, according to some of the contracts I recieve.

As I have often said, nothing beats listening to your own tuning for forty hours and continually refining it according to the standards developed over the years by generations of specialist tuners who have worked for the company who made the piano that is chosen for the highest standards demanded by the industry.

Carry on bleating.




Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Rxd,

You wrote:

..."In blending their ensemble, don't all musicians give a little in their own intonation for the common good? Sacrifice is far too vulgar a word in this instance. To not accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making is somewhat akin to self pleasuring or have I lost you again?"...

Hope Marty’s reply has helped you, what can I add... As mentioned, I think we come from different experiences and cannot exclude that our sense of intonation is not that very same. What my experience tells me is that musicians, amongst themselves, can normally share good intonation, at least to a certain degree. Perhaps it is when you experience “intonation” as a command, as an imperative, as something that tells you when IT is right and when it is wrong, improvable or not, it is then that you can measure and compare your sense of intonation, and always a better ear is able to help the dim one.

...”Your grasp of the full effects of inharmonicity seem lacking. This surprises me. “...

Yes, even now when I read “...Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played..”, I cannot resist laughing.

BTW, you did not answer my humorous questions... Should I understand that a “properly tuned“ piano can only sound sharp? Or, you hear a piano being sharp and you leave it because... that is inharmonicity? Serious, how have you ended up compromising (if not sacrificing) intonation? Any technical hint?

I hope you do not mind if we are two “different” musicians and technicians, and what you may want to know is that I have never compromised my intonation.

...”Surely you heard the bleating of the piano in Bills' video in the "non vib" ensemble sections of that otherwise fine group of musicians. Didn't you hear the effects of an over stretched treble on the rest of the instruments. Or we're you, like most, only listening to the piano?”...

Sorry, I missed that video, would you link it for me?

...”I know there are some people who enjoy the bleat of an overstretched piano. There are also those who get a similar cheap thrill from the bleat of a Mighty Wurlitzer theatre organ. you portray yourself as having higher sensibilities but you give yourself away.”...

I do not know what you mean, is that idiomatic? In any case, why do you mention “bleating”? What has that to do with pianos that sound inevitably sharp... because of inharmonicity?

...”I can make a trumpet bleat like a Spanish bullfighting band. Indeed, I have made a lot of money doing just that but I would not use that sound when I played under the baton of sir John Barbirolli. ( long story)..”...

Yes, you seem to have many long stories and to be really into sharing them. Have you thought about starting a personal thread?

...”Similarly I can tune a piano so that it bleats but my default tuning is not to do that. Am I compromising the intonation of the piano when I make it bleat? Am I compromising (sacrificing?) the intonation of the piano when I use my skills to minimise that bleating?.”...

Well, you tell me. But, are you saying that sometimes you may as well tune a piano that will sound... sharp?

...”I will minimise the bleating every time when an ensemble is to use the piano. We all heard how it compromised the ensemble sound in Bills' example. It would do the same thing in a string ensemble utilising piano.”...

Hmmm... See how different we are, I only have one tuning, and it is the One that, in my ears, matches my sense of intonation to the highest degree. That one, an nothing else. See, no compromise at all is (IMO) how intonation can be improved on a piano, but you need to be equipped, firm and strong, otherwise you adjust on a compromise.

...”My specialised knowledge as a musician only helps me explain this stuff. it is not the only reason I tune this way. The reason I tune this way is because all my colleagues who are involved in what is regarded as the finest tuning available for purpose tune this way.”...

Hmmm..., Whenever, I am ready to listen to the finest tuning of yours, just tell me when.

...”My colleagues in NY, LA and London who I have worked alongside at different times in my life, all tune extremely similarly.”...

Yes, similarly, I too think we all tune similarly.

...”There are many reasons that one piano company is used for the vast majority of top line commercial recordings by major companies and one of them is the way they are tuned by that companies' specialist staff tuners. It is also the tone regulation by those who specialise in this alone. Many of the highly regarded European record companies record in London studios, according to some of the contracts I recieve.
As I have often said, nothing beats listening to your own tuning for forty hours and continually refining it according to the standards developed over the years by generations of specialist tuners who have worked for the company who made the piano that is chosen for the highest standards demanded by the industry.”

Fantastic, rxd (or whatever your name is), I look forward to meeting your colleagues too.

...”Carry on bleating.”

?

Regards, a.c.
.



Originally Posted By: rxd
Alfredo,

Only one question.

If you had to tune a piano and organ together, how would you minimise or even completely reconcile the differences between the way they tune?


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: rxd
Alfredo,

Only one question.

If you had to tune a piano and organ together, how would you minimise or even completely reconcile the differences between the way they tune?


Good question, rxd, though you may already know my answer: Was it Mandrake? Sure, we might be asked to manage some uncomfortable deals, but why do you ask... Weren't we talking about "refined" and "finest tunings" and "highest standards"?

I too have only one new question: can you say when someone is singing or playing out of tune?

Of course, I would be delighted if you were to reply to my previous questions too, in order to get to the point:

Are you saying that a “properly tuned“ piano can only sound sharp?

How do you (technically) "...accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making..."?

Regards, a.c.
.


Originally Posted By: rxd
Bingo!
You have just proven some of my earlier points.


rxd,

What were the points you intended to prove? Why do I get the feeling of an attempt to circumvent a few questions?

Were you saying that a “properly tuned“ piano can only sound sharp?

How do you (technically) "..accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making.."?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2224339 - 02/01/14 06:50 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Dearest Alfonso,
So brill to hear from you and in such polite demeanour. That's much better. , but sweetie, you have more questions than a jealous lover!!... It's overwhelming. A positive bombardment, luvvie. I ought to be flattered but You're bored when you're adored, you're blasé. To quote sir Noel who was ever so bona, even when he had no riah to zhush and his lallies were grizzled. Such an homie polone if ever there was one he could whurdle his nadgers and firtle his cordwangler round his futtocks with the best.

I can but respond to two questions darling an that's yer lot.

Don't u find that the give and take of making music with another human an intimate affair? I do. Quite possibly that turn of phrase, in partic, gains too much in translation but music making is no time to be selfish now, is it?? Thatt would b a right pain in the khyber.

The other answer, before I let you go is that of course I don't tune sharp. I would get my cards immediately and my pink slip too if I did that. Quite amazing that you think that because most others here are assuming that I must tune flat. I'm Tuning for the worlds professionals. That's no time to bugger about. Absolutely clean octaves are sacred. You work it out if that goes sharp or not. Who on earth do you think you're talking too? If my pianos could only speak, they wouldn't speak to either of us.

Just in case anybody thinks I must be on the piste or even taking the piste, I'm in fact pulling an all nighter. I can do the best part of a weeks work in no time when I have the place to myself. I was just interacting with a security guard who popped in to say hello. What he actually said was "Ey oop" because he's from my part of the world and we had some gay banter remembering Round the Horne.
They were masters of the single entendre. The writers would compose a folk song by perusing the greater, huger Oxford dictionary looking for obscure words that sounded vaguely rude but weren't. Words like "futtocks" which actually means, well, , you look it up.

If anyone thinks this should be censored, and, lord knows, my spellchecker tried, every word I used was used on "auntie Beeb" (our reference to the prudish, prim and proper BBC) fifty years ago.
Time to stop messin abart and get back to work. Except I don't call it work, they do.

They used to say that behind every successful man there's a woman....telling him he's wrong.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2224344 - 02/01/14 07:11 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1207
Loc: Québec, Canada
After having read that I wonder where Isaac went.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2224489 - 02/02/14 05:11 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: accordeur]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 678
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: accordeur
After having read that I wonder where Isaac went.

rxd, are you trying to be funny, or just going more insane?
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2224500 - 02/02/14 07:13 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
The parallel being that millions of people will know exactly what I'm talking about.
It's a closed book to all others and might even make them angry.


Edited by rxd (02/03/14 12:55 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2268289 - 04/28/14 05:42 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1077
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi All,

Only this evening I learned about the 'Baldassin - Sanderson Tuning Temperament', so I went on google and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs8A4B3HT34

More than ever, I think that the original problem is not the piano, but the mentor.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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