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#2224104 - 02/01/14 10:21 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1076
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
I performed Flor Peters' Concerto for Organ and Piano last year. The piano was tuned with moderate stretch, but tight octaves in the treble due to so many parallel octave runs. We were unaware of major intonation issues, possibly because of the structure of the work. i didn't think about it at the time, but maybe Peters understood some of the issues discussed here and took that into consideration when writing it. Very fun piece to play.

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#2224120 - 02/01/14 10:57 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: prout]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1941
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: prout
I performed Flor Peters' Concerto for Organ and Piano last year. The piano was tuned with moderate stretch, but tight octaves in the treble due to so many parallel octave runs. We were unaware of major intonation issues, possibly because of the structure of the work. i didn't think about it at the time, but maybe Peters understood some of the issues discussed here and took that into consideration when writing it. Very fun piece to play.

Thanks for posting that. I was about to tell rxd there is no repertoire for piano and organ anyways so the problem is moot but I stand corrected already. I've seen some of those halleluja churches (not sure what the religion is precisely) in the southern US; I think organ-piano intonation is not on their minds at all.

Kees

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#2224136 - 02/01/14 11:33 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: DoelKees]
prout Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 1076
Loc: Southwestern Ontario
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: prout
I performed Flor Peters' Concerto for Organ and Piano last year. The piano was tuned with moderate stretch, but tight octaves in the treble due to so many parallel octave runs. We were unaware of major intonation issues, possibly because of the structure of the work. i didn't think about it at the time, but maybe Peters understood some of the issues discussed here and took that into consideration when writing it. Very fun piece to play.

Thanks for posting that. I was about to tell rxd there is no repertoire for piano and organ anyways so the problem is moot but I stand corrected already. I've seen some of those halleluja churches (not sure what the religion is precisely) in the southern US; I think organ-piano intonation is not on their minds at all.

Kees


There is a reasonable amount of rep for organ piano. Here is a snippet of a work. Pretty good intonation to my ear anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKntVHs2ZAY

Edit: Not my taste by the way, but still well done.


Edited by prout (02/01/14 11:37 AM)

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#2224206 - 02/01/14 02:06 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: rXd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi,

Prout, Kees,

Perhaps rxd was referring to any two fixed-scale instruments, in a more general sense, that is how I understand his question. Sometime, when it comes to twin a piano and a second instrument (tuned by someone else), it could be, as I said, “uncomfortable”. And possibly it would be up to the tuner whether to “accommodate” or not. In any case, perhaps you can tell what that has to do with rxd’s lament on bleating pianos and pianos that sound inevitably sharp because of inharmonicity?


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Perfection is like a mirage; when conditions are right you can see it is possible, but every motion towards it makes it recede from you.


For me, Perfection is like Excellence: when conditions are right I can see it possible, perhaps any wrong notion (and/or posture) may cut it down.

Beyond that, I do not think the OP was about Perfection, but scorn and indignation.


Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: rxd
[quote=Minnesota Marty]Why is the assumption being made that "concert" tuning is the same as "studio" tuning? As a pianist who has been in both situations, it seems that the tuner plays a very different role in each type of activity.

In performance, I've never been given a lunch break between the 2nd and 3rd mvts. of a concerto. The demands are totally different and shouldn't be equated.


Care to expand on both these paragraphs, Marty? Neither of them seem to be saying anything unless I'm missing some humor.

Well, it is a combined response to a number of your recent posts.

You seem to be in a situation which is unlike the vast majority of highly skilled tuners. That is why I pointed out the difference in tuning for a concert or for a recording. 'Live in Concert' recording (or tuning) is very different than studio work. I'm thinking of the quest for perfection as it relates to the concept of this thread.

In the classical world, unlike the craziness of RA Hall, piano tuners aren't pushed into rush jobs or get yelled at by a stage manager. I'm sure there are some rush jobs in unusual situations, but that is not the standard procedure for concert work or recording. I'm sorry that you work in such a frenetic environment.

Why is it that you keep stating that wind instruments go flat at the top of their range and the reverse happens at the lower end? This is simply untrue. It is the other way around. Your 'stretch theory' just doesn't cut it.

Nothing I stated was meant to be humorous.


As I suspected.

We are involved in all kinds of situations. The RAH series always gives us 3-4 seperate tuning slots on production day, 2-3 of them entirelyl to ourselves. I doubt I ever said anything different.

The experience of my former student was not with the company I work with. it happened in America, as a matter of fact. not in a major centre. That would never be tolerated here.

Everything we do here is in well defined, pre arranged, usually copious time slots.

Have you been carrying this half understood notion all this time? I categorically never said that any wind instrument played flat in the upper register and sharp in the lower. I have, however stated that the piano is stretched more than any other instruments (skilfully played, of course).

Having been a highly skilled professional wind player myself at film studio and broadcast level and in many genres with many different combinations of instruments, of course I understand their intonation. Currently, I am called upon to coach young professional ensembles and more recently, string quartets as an extension of my work with piano trios.

I have spoken of certain situations where a wind player has played the odd note or two sharper than the rest of the orchestra that has affected the piano entry. That is not to say anything about general tendencies of an instrument.

Let me clear this misunderstanding once and for all. Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played. This is easily accomodated by skilled players. They will, of course, note that it is a different experience from playing with a well tuned organ at the same nominal pitch, for example.
This is, as I'm sure you understand, the effect of inharmonicity in pianos. I am assuming an understanding of this basic characteristic of pianos. Perhaps I shouldn't.

Pianos tuned with exaggerated stretch only makes matters worse. It is the exaggerated tuning of the piano that is at fault, not the other instruments. I can't stress this enough

To say that a piano is sharp is not the same as saying that any other instrument plays flat.

Thank you for bringing this up and giving me an opportunity to clarify what I may not have said very clearly and for anybody else who may have been carrying this misunderstanding.
Hopefully I didn't create more. this partial understanding explains a lot. But it still doesn't address your post in question.

I still don't understand about "lunch between movements" or the exact nature of the distinction you make between concert and studio. Perhaps another partial understanding? What was your frame of mind when you wrote it? Strange


Hi,

I do not have much time in these days, I would like to be able to seat down for a solid time an reply properly. Instead I have to be short.

rxd, you wrote:

..."Let me clear this misunderstanding once and for all. Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played. This is easily accomodated by skilled players. They will, of course, note that it is a different experience from playing with a well tuned organ at the same nominal pitch, for example.
This is, as I'm sure you understand, the effect of inharmonicity in pianos. I am assuming an understanding of this basic characteristic of pianos. Perhaps I shouldn't."...

Perhaps you want to expand on that. When I read that, I get the feeling we come from two different planets. Please note, nothing personal and I do not think it is a question of amount_or_type_of_experience... musician, playing concerts in duo (with a piano) or more, multi-instrument player, tunings in prestigous halls, for prestigious brands etc... in fact, all this calls for a question.

Recently I have had to "learn" that the piano is the most out-of-tune instrument on the stage (BB), some colleagues still wonder about the "point of best fit", others regret that the piano cannot adjust_in_real_time, and now I learn from you that "...Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played."

Humor: Do you tune pianos sharp?

Humor: Are pianos sharp when they are not flat?

Non-humor: Have you been tuning pianos while trying to get along with other orchestra instruments and players (as I understand from your other post)? In case, do you sacrifice your "intonation"?

Humor: Gosh, all these martyrs, it looks like an army.

Regards, a.c.
.


I question your sobriety on this post but to answer but one of your confusion of questions.

In blending their ensemble, don't all musicians give a little in their own intonation for the common good? Sacrifice is far too vulgar a word in this instance. To not accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making is somewhat akin to self pleasuring or have I lost you again?

Your grasp of the full effects of inharmonicity seem lacking. This surprises me.

Surely you heard the bleating of the piano in Bills' video in the "non vib" ensemble sections of that otherwise fine group of musicians. Didn't you hear the effects of an over stretched treble on the rest of the instruments. Or we're you, like most, only listening to the piano?
I know there are some people who enjoy the bleat of an overstretched piano. There are also those who get a similar cheap thrill from the bleat of a Mighty Wurlitzer theatre organ. you portray yourself as having higher sensibilities but you give yourself away.

I can make a trumpet bleat like a Spanish bullfighting band. Indeed, I have made a lot of money doing just that but I would not use that sound when I played under the baton of sir John Barbirolli. ( long story).. Similarly I can tune a piano so that it bleats but my default tuning is not to do that. Am I compromising the intonation of the piano when I make it bleat? Am I compromising (sacrificing?) the intonation of the piano when I use my skills to minimise that bleating?

I will minimise the bleating every time when an ensemble is to use the piano. We all heard how it compromised the ensemble sound in Bills' example. It would do the same thing in a string ensemble utilising piano.

My specialised knowledge as a musician only helps me explain this stuff. it is not the only reason I tune this way. The reason I tune this way is because all my colleagues who are involved in what is regarded as the finest tuning available for purpose tune this way.

My colleagues in NY, LA and London who I have worked alongside at different times in my life, all tune extremely similarly. There are many reasons that one piano company is used for the vast majority of top line commercial recordings by major companies and one of them is the way they are tuned by that companies' specialist staff tuners. It is also the tone regulation by those who specialise in this alone. Many of the highly regarded European record companies record in London studios, according to some of the contracts I recieve.

As I have often said, nothing beats listening to your own tuning for forty hours and continually refining it according to the standards developed over the years by generations of specialist tuners who have worked for the company who made the piano that is chosen for the highest standards demanded by the industry.

Carry on bleating.




Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Rxd,

You wrote:

..."In blending their ensemble, don't all musicians give a little in their own intonation for the common good? Sacrifice is far too vulgar a word in this instance. To not accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making is somewhat akin to self pleasuring or have I lost you again?"...

Hope Marty’s reply has helped you, what can I add... As mentioned, I think we come from different experiences and cannot exclude that our sense of intonation is not that very same. What my experience tells me is that musicians, amongst themselves, can normally share good intonation, at least to a certain degree. Perhaps it is when you experience “intonation” as a command, as an imperative, as something that tells you when IT is right and when it is wrong, improvable or not, it is then that you can measure and compare your sense of intonation, and always a better ear is able to help the dim one.

...”Your grasp of the full effects of inharmonicity seem lacking. This surprises me. “...

Yes, even now when I read “...Pianos, when properly tuned to themselves, tend to be sharper in the treble and flatter in the bass than other instruments skilfully played..”, I cannot resist laughing.

BTW, you did not answer my humorous questions... Should I understand that a “properly tuned“ piano can only sound sharp? Or, you hear a piano being sharp and you leave it because... that is inharmonicity? Serious, how have you ended up compromising (if not sacrificing) intonation? Any technical hint?

I hope you do not mind if we are two “different” musicians and technicians, and what you may want to know is that I have never compromised my intonation.

...”Surely you heard the bleating of the piano in Bills' video in the "non vib" ensemble sections of that otherwise fine group of musicians. Didn't you hear the effects of an over stretched treble on the rest of the instruments. Or we're you, like most, only listening to the piano?”...

Sorry, I missed that video, would you link it for me?

...”I know there are some people who enjoy the bleat of an overstretched piano. There are also those who get a similar cheap thrill from the bleat of a Mighty Wurlitzer theatre organ. you portray yourself as having higher sensibilities but you give yourself away.”...

I do not know what you mean, is that idiomatic? In any case, why do you mention “bleating”? What has that to do with pianos that sound inevitably sharp... because of inharmonicity?

...”I can make a trumpet bleat like a Spanish bullfighting band. Indeed, I have made a lot of money doing just that but I would not use that sound when I played under the baton of sir John Barbirolli. ( long story)..”...

Yes, you seem to have many long stories and to be really into sharing them. Have you thought about starting a personal thread?

...”Similarly I can tune a piano so that it bleats but my default tuning is not to do that. Am I compromising the intonation of the piano when I make it bleat? Am I compromising (sacrificing?) the intonation of the piano when I use my skills to minimise that bleating?.”...

Well, you tell me. But, are you saying that sometimes you may as well tune a piano that will sound... sharp?

...”I will minimise the bleating every time when an ensemble is to use the piano. We all heard how it compromised the ensemble sound in Bills' example. It would do the same thing in a string ensemble utilising piano.”...

Hmmm... See how different we are, I only have one tuning, and it is the One that, in my ears, matches my sense of intonation to the highest degree. That one, an nothing else. See, no compromise at all is (IMO) how intonation can be improved on a piano, but you need to be equipped, firm and strong, otherwise you adjust on a compromise.

...”My specialised knowledge as a musician only helps me explain this stuff. it is not the only reason I tune this way. The reason I tune this way is because all my colleagues who are involved in what is regarded as the finest tuning available for purpose tune this way.”...

Hmmm..., Whenever, I am ready to listen to the finest tuning of yours, just tell me when.

...”My colleagues in NY, LA and London who I have worked alongside at different times in my life, all tune extremely similarly.”...

Yes, similarly, I too think we all tune similarly.

...”There are many reasons that one piano company is used for the vast majority of top line commercial recordings by major companies and one of them is the way they are tuned by that companies' specialist staff tuners. It is also the tone regulation by those who specialise in this alone. Many of the highly regarded European record companies record in London studios, according to some of the contracts I recieve.
As I have often said, nothing beats listening to your own tuning for forty hours and continually refining it according to the standards developed over the years by generations of specialist tuners who have worked for the company who made the piano that is chosen for the highest standards demanded by the industry.”

Fantastic, rxd (or whatever your name is), I look forward to meeting your colleagues too.

...”Carry on bleating.”

?

Regards, a.c.
.



Originally Posted By: rxd
Alfredo,

Only one question.

If you had to tune a piano and organ together, how would you minimise or even completely reconcile the differences between the way they tune?


Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: rxd
Alfredo,

Only one question.

If you had to tune a piano and organ together, how would you minimise or even completely reconcile the differences between the way they tune?


Good question, rxd, though you may already know my answer: Was it Mandrake? Sure, we might be asked to manage some uncomfortable deals, but why do you ask... Weren't we talking about "refined" and "finest tunings" and "highest standards"?

I too have only one new question: can you say when someone is singing or playing out of tune?

Of course, I would be delighted if you were to reply to my previous questions too, in order to get to the point:

Are you saying that a “properly tuned“ piano can only sound sharp?

How do you (technically) "...accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making..."?

Regards, a.c.
.


Originally Posted By: rxd
Bingo!
You have just proven some of my earlier points.


rxd,

What were the points you intended to prove? Why do I get the feeling of an attempt to circumvent a few questions?

Were you saying that a “properly tuned“ piano can only sound sharp?

How do you (technically) "..accommodate the needs of another in the intimacy of music making.."?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2224339 - 02/01/14 06:50 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2097
Dearest Alfonso,
So brill to hear from you and in such polite demeanour. That's much better. , but sweetie, you have more questions than a jealous lover!!... It's overwhelming. A positive bombardment, luvvie. I ought to be flattered but You're bored when you're adored, you're blasé. To quote sir Noel who was ever so bona, even when he had no riah to zhush and his lallies were grizzled. Such an homie polone if ever there was one he could whurdle his nadgers and firtle his cordwangler round his futtocks with the best.

I can but respond to two questions darling an that's yer lot.

Don't u find that the give and take of making music with another human an intimate affair? I do. Quite possibly that turn of phrase, in partic, gains too much in translation but music making is no time to be selfish now, is it?? Thatt would b a right pain in the khyber.

The other answer, before I let you go is that of course I don't tune sharp. I would get my cards immediately and my pink slip too if I did that. Quite amazing that you think that because most others here are assuming that I must tune flat. I'm Tuning for the worlds professionals. That's no time to bugger about. Absolutely clean octaves are sacred. You work it out if that goes sharp or not. Who on earth do you think you're talking too? If my pianos could only speak, they wouldn't speak to either of us.

Just in case anybody thinks I must be on the piste or even taking the piste, I'm in fact pulling an all nighter. I can do the best part of a weeks work in no time when I have the place to myself. I was just interacting with a security guard who popped in to say hello. What he actually said was "Ey oop" because he's from my part of the world and we had some gay banter remembering Round the Horne.
They were masters of the single entendre. The writers would compose a folk song by perusing the greater, huger Oxford dictionary looking for obscure words that sounded vaguely rude but weren't. Words like "futtocks" which actually means, well, , you look it up.

If anyone thinks this should be censored, and, lord knows, my spellchecker tried, every word I used was used on "auntie Beeb" (our reference to the prudish, prim and proper BBC) fifty years ago.
Time to stop messin abart and get back to work. Except I don't call it work, they do.

They used to say that behind every successful man there's a woman....telling him he's wrong.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



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#2224344 - 02/01/14 07:11 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: Québec, Canada
After having read that I wonder where Isaac went.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2224489 - 02/02/14 05:11 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: accordeur]
Chris Leslie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 893
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: accordeur
After having read that I wonder where Isaac went.

rxd, are you trying to be funny, or just going more insane?
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#2224500 - 02/02/14 07:13 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2097
The parallel being that millions of people will know exactly what I'm talking about.
It's a closed book to all others and might even make them angry.


Edited by rxd (02/03/14 12:55 AM)
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



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#2268289 - 04/28/14 05:42 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi All,

Only this evening I learned about the 'Baldassin - Sanderson Tuning Temperament', so I went on google and found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs8A4B3HT34

More than ever, I think that the original problem is not the piano, but the mentor.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2384360 - 02/09/15 06:58 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi,

I was reading an interesting thread, untill I came to this (below):

#2384111 - February 09, 2015 11:20 AM Re: Piano Technician Academy [Re: JoelW]
rXd

..."All temperaments have some unavoidable outrageous intervals that would not be tolerated in a small ensemble with flexible intonation and the listening musician sometimes spots them in the piano.

A large part of the way I tune is to minimise them where they are mostly heard. Many tuning methods only serve to maximise them.

Educating clients is a source of pleasure for me."


No doubt, I would say, no less than educating friends (ehi ehi, I am only joking).

rXd, which (would you say) are the outrageous intervals in the temperament you tune?

You say that you "minimise them where they are mostly heard". Perhaps I do not get your point, what do you mean with that? Would you share your method?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2385152 - 02/12/15 01:23 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2097
I am told that I have been mentioned in despstches here.

Although the title is a capital idea, this thread is characterised by intense third degree interrogation that, on the face of it, seems erudite but for those precious few who venture to answer the inquisition, the ensuing interlocution betrays either a lack of memory, poor comprehension, poor grasp of idiom, vast gaps I a priori knowledge or simply a not so hidden agenda.

On order to point this out, I presented a post that was almost totally incomprehensible to all but about forty million people. Those forty million had the a priori knowledge necessary to make my post plain and coherent. Nobody but someone brought up in the UK in a certain era could possible understand it. (The post is still extant, about 6-8 posts above this one).

The same principle applies to this subject and this thread died a natural death a year ago since it was going round in ever decreasing circles. Consequently, it finally disappeared up its' own Khyber.

This thread, however, did serve to to point up the apalling lack of general knowledge on the subject among some posters. It showed particularly in their attempts to discredit aspects that they clearly had not the least understanding of. I have nothing to prove. Lots to offer.

As to this latest inquisition. Those who assiduously read my posts for the wisdom and erudition contained therein will have the a priori knowledge to understand me completely on this subject with no need for further tiresome questions. I hesitate to reiterate any of it lest I be perceived as pushing something I have an attachment to, like a dog with a tree as the mixed metaphor goes. It requires an open mind and is best presented in snippets and allegory lest the fundies take its historical delicacy and trample all over it as they attempted in their sidelong way with another recent thread. There are enough who have similar experience or thanked me for the info both privately ind in the threads that I have absolutely no interest in those with such hidebound views that they are no longer capable of opening their minds to what some have been doing for possibly over a hundred years.

I describe a genuine historically informed ET that may date back to the 1850's at least, that is to say, to the seeds of the development of the modern piano. I only positively know of its existence over ninety years with personal experience of fifty of them. Living history if you like, those tuners of bygone days were no slouches, I have read some of their articles in old monthly "pianomaker" magazines dating from the 1920's and observed the work of and been taught by their students. Their accuracy was no different than today's very best efforts. They were trained as apprentices by masters who insisted on standards no different than the standards that produced the great pianos of old. A triumph of craftsmanship over technology. Tuning standards were the same.

As was overheard on a London gentlemans club, "the boundah doesn't know the rules. Can't expect him to realleh, he's only been a member forty years".
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



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#2385166 - 02/12/15 02:46 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: rXd]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1941
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By rXd
I am told that I have been mentioned in despstches here.

Although the title is a capital idea, this thread is characterised by intense third degree interrogation that, on the face of it, seems erudite but for those precious few who venture to answer the inquisition, the ensuing interlocution betrays either a lack of memory, poor comprehension, poor grasp of idiom, vast gaps I a priori knowledge or simply a not so hidden agenda.

On order to point this out, I presented a post that was almost totally incomprehensible to all but about forty million people. Those forty million had the a priori knowledge necessary to make my post plain and coherent. Nobody but someone brought up in the UK in a certain era could possible understand it. (The post is still extant, about 6-8 posts above this one).

The same principle applies to this subject and this thread died a natural death a year ago since it was going round in ever decreasing circles. Consequently, it finally disappeared up its' own Khyber.

This thread, however, did serve to to point up the apalling lack of general knowledge on the subject among some posters. It showed particularly in their attempts to discredit aspects that they clearly had not the least understanding of.

As to this latest inquisition. Those who assiduously read my posts for the wisdom and erudition contained therein will have the a priori knowledge to understand me completely on this subject with no need for further tiresome questions. I hesitate to reiterate any of it lest I be perceived as pushing something I have an attachment to, like a dog with a tree as the mixed metaphor goes. It requires an open mind and is best presented in snippets and allegory lest the fundies take its historical delicacy and trample all over it as they attempted in their sidelong way with another recent thread. There are enough who have similar experience or thanked me for the info both privately ind in the threads that I have absolutely no interest in those with such hidebound views that they are no longer capable of opening their minds to what some have been doing for possibly over a hundred years.

I describe a genuine historically informed ET that may date back to the 1850's at least, that is to say, to the seeds of the development of the modern piano. I only positively know of its existence over ninety years with personal experience of fifty of them. Living history if you like, those tuners of bygone days were no slouches, I have read some of their articles in old monthly "pianomaker" magazines dating from the 1920's and observed the work of and been taught by their students. Their accuracy was no different than today's very best efforts. They were trained as apprentices by masters who insisted on standards no different than the standards that produced the great pianos of old. A triumph of craftsmanship over technology. Tuning standards were the same.

As was overheard on a London gentlemans club, "the boundah doesn't know the rules. Can't expect him to realleh, he's only been a member forty years".


Narcissism.

Kees

Top
#2385169 - 02/12/15 03:02 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: DoelKees]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2097
Originally Posted By DoelKees
Originally Posted By rXd
I am told that I have been mentioned in despstches here.

Although the title is a capital idea, this thread is characterised by intense third degree interrogation that, on the face of it, seems erudite but for those precious few who venture to answer the inquisition, the ensuing interlocution betrays either a lack of memory, poor comprehension, poor grasp of idiom, vast gaps I a priori knowledge or simply a not so hidden agenda.

On order to point this out, I presented a post that was almost totally incomprehensible to all but about forty million people. Those forty million had the a priori knowledge necessary to make my post plain and coherent. Nobody but someone brought up in the UK in a certain era could possible understand it. (The post is still extant, about 6-8 posts above this one).

The same principle applies to this subject and this thread died a natural death a year ago since it was going round in ever decreasing circles. Consequently, it finally disappeared up its' own Khyber.

This thread, however, did serve to to point up the apalling lack of general knowledge on the subject among some posters. It showed particularly in their attempts to discredit aspects that they clearly had not the least understanding of.

As to this latest inquisition. Those who assiduously read my posts for the wisdom and erudition contained therein will have the a priori knowledge to understand me completely on this subject with no need for further tiresome questions. I hesitate to reiterate any of it lest I be perceived as pushing something I have an attachment to, like a dog with a tree as the mixed metaphor goes. It requires an open mind and is best presented in snippets and allegory lest the fundies take its historical delicacy and trample all over it as they attempted in their sidelong way with another recent thread. There are enough who have similar experience or thanked me for the info both privately ind in the threads that I have absolutely no interest in those with such hidebound views that they are no longer capable of opening their minds to what some have been doing for possibly over a hundred years.

I describe a genuine historically informed ET that may date back to the 1850's at least, that is to say, to the seeds of the development of the modern piano. I only positively know of its existence over ninety years with personal experience of fifty of them. Living history if you like, those tuners of bygone days were no slouches, I have read some of their articles in old monthly "pianomaker" magazines dating from the 1920's and observed the work of and been taught by their students. Their accuracy was no different than today's very best efforts. They were trained as apprentices by masters who insisted on standards no different than the standards that produced the great pianos of old. A triumph of craftsmanship over technology. Tuning standards were the same.

As was overheard on a London gentlemans club, "the boundah doesn't know the rules. Can't expect him to realleh, he's only been a member forty years".


Narcissism.

Kees


See what I mean, folks?
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2385741 - 02/13/15 02:07 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi rXd,

You wrote:..."All temperaments have some unavoidable outrageous intervals that would not be tolerated in a small ensemble with flexible intonation and the listening musician sometimes spots them in the piano.

A large part of the way I tune is to minimise them where they are mostly heard. Many tuning methods only serve to maximise them.

Educating clients is a source of pleasure for me."...

Thanks for your reply and for your opinions.

The fact is that your post shocked me, and I thought you could let me know, with few words, what are the '..unavoidable outrageous intervals..' and how you minimize them.

You know, mine was just a question like any other, obviously no one here is forced to answer, but it must be terrible for you, if it feels like a 'third degree interrogation'.

Above you wrote:..."I describe a genuine historically informed ET that may date back to the 1850's at least, that is to say, to the seeds of the development of the modern piano. I only positively know of its existence over ninety years with personal experience of fifty of them. Living history if you like, those tuners of bygone days were no slouches, I have read some of their articles in old monthly "pianomaker" magazines dating from the 1920's and observed the work of and been taught by their students. Their accuracy was no different than today's very best efforts. They were trained as apprentices by masters who insisted on standards no different than the standards that produced the great pianos of old. A triumph of craftsmanship over technology. Tuning standards were the same."...

Did you post that because you are interested in other opinions?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2385820 - 02/13/15 05:50 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2097
See what I mean?

O. K., then.

Alfredo,
The questions you ask have already been answered in detail previously either in your own thread or elsewhere. They were not short posts. I refuse to track them down for you or repeat them. if you are looking for short answers, how can I start to tell you. It won't fit on a bumper sticker.

Unfortunate that you transposed something I wrote elsewhere onto this, your own thread that died a year ago.

Read back a few pages in this thread. You will find some very patronising posts that you wrote a year ago stemming from a basic concept that you found difficult to grasp. Other posts around the same time were somewhat peevish.
What have you realised in the past year?

I have no wish to be any further part of this particular thread.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2385960 - 02/14/15 06:28 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: rXd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By rXd
See what I mean?

O. K., then.

Alfredo,
The questions you ask have already been answered in detail previously either in your own thread or elsewhere. They were not short posts. I refuse to track them down for you or repeat them. if you are looking for short answers, how can I start to tell you. It won't fit on a bumper sticker.

Unfortunate that you transposed something I wrote elsewhere onto this, your own thread that died a year ago.

Read back a few pages in this thread. You will find some very patronising posts that you wrote a year ago stemming from a basic concept that you found difficult to grasp. Other posts around the same time were somewhat peevish.
What have you realised in the past year?

I have no wish to be any further part of this particular thread.


Hi rXd,

Maybe I see what you mean, the 'dog with the tree' metaphor you mentioned gives me a hint.

You ask:..."What have you realised in the past year? "

Well, that you have a great need to tell your stories, except that you're not inclined to comparisons and confrontations and you become pompous, cantankerous and aggressive.

As you go along with your prophetic and prosaic vein, expecting me/us(?) to believe that everything you state is pure gold, you find it difficult, as I see it, to understand the progress that is being made.

Take it easy, rXd, and please take note, you may see it as dead but, like others, this thread sometimes is only dormant.

Kind Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2385977 - 02/14/15 07:53 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2097
I freely admit to all the names that you have finally reduced yourself to calling me, Alfredo.
I can be what I choose to be and also whatever you project onto me.bat any time. I'm good at it. You forgot really really exasperating and ivory tower tuner, (my favourite).

I am merely pointing you towards an answer and the self realisation from studying your own writings in order to understand it.

I'm not selling anything, merely presenting a case that I have no emotional attachment to. Arguments and opinions are for the argumentative and opinionated. I have no interest in either. People are free to take it or leave it. I refuse to enter into fruitless quasi academic arguments. Imagine a life free of that sort of idiocy. That's mine. Please don't even attempt to drag me into that kind of adversarislism.

Name calling is a sure fire way to get your own thread closed down.

If it helps keep your thread open, I am not in the least offended. I'm far too old and carefree.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2386156 - 02/14/15 03:08 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy

..."Imagine a life free of that sort of idiocy. "...

Thank you, rXd, glad you did not feel offended. As for idiocies, I dare not ask you more.

Cheers
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2394829 - 03/06/15 06:25 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: rXd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By rXd

...//SNIP//...

I describe a genuine historically informed ET that may date back to the 1850's at least, that is to say, to the seeds of the development of the modern piano. I only positively know of its existence over ninety years with personal experience of fifty of them. Living history if you like, those tuners of bygone days were no slouches, I have read some of their articles in old monthly "pianomaker" magazines dating from the 1920's and observed the work of and been taught by their students. Their accuracy was no different than today's very best efforts. They were trained as apprentices by masters who insisted on standards no different than the standards that produced the great pianos of old. A triumph of craftsmanship over technology. Tuning standards were the same.


It would take me too many words, in order to elucidate how standards and techniques develop in time.

The video linked below may work much better, hope you enjoy it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGUW1d0w8g

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2394837 - 03/06/15 07:04 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
JustHarmony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 40
I was, and am, quite interested in the topic of equal temperament and modern vs. historic iterations and discussions of "equal" temperament.... but I seem to have jumped into a mess of petty bickering. What a disappointment. Shall I begin a new thread for those who actually want to discuss?

Bummer.

JH

Top
#2394842 - 03/06/15 07:22 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: JustHarmony]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By JustHarmony
I was, and am, quite interested in the topic of equal temperament and modern vs. historic iterations and discussions of "equal" temperament.... but I seem to have jumped into a mess of petty bickering. What a disappointment. Shall I begin a new thread for those who actually want to discuss?

Bummer.

JH


Hi JH,

I am still happy to discuss modern ETs and historical temps.

You may well start a new thread, why not, or add on to this one, it makes no difference to me.

As I see it, it might be like in a kitchen, you have to discard the dirt and keep the good.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2394847 - 03/06/15 07:50 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2097
If tuning were a competition to see who can tune the sharpest treble (and flattest bass) this would, of course be nothing new and some would bend over backwards to win.

But.....

I don't see it as a competition.

I am not arguing nor would I attempt a value judgement but merely reporting on the historical side of the material implied by the title of the thread and it's current validity where other instruments are involved, Particularly since I tuned all of the pianos for the masterclasses given by the principal players in the Berlin Phil on their recent visit here and discussed some of the issues with some of them.

Does anyone else here regularly attend masterclasses given on all families of orchestral instruments by their greatest exponents in order to gain a greater understanding? If not, why not? They're entirely free of charge.

Oh, and I regularly tune the soundstage pianos used for major movie soundtracks where only the finest of musicians are employed.

I sincerely hope nobody minds me posting my experience and factual knowledge, current and historical, on this thread.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2394857 - 03/06/15 08:14 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: rXd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1198
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By rXd
If tuning were a competition to see who can tune the sharpest treble (and flattest bass) this would, of course be nothing new and some would bend over backwards to win.

But.....

I don't see it as a competition.

I am not arguing but merely reporting on the historical side of the material implied by the title of the thread and it's current validity where other instruments are involved, Particularly since I tuned all of the pianos for the masterclasses given by the principal players in the Berlin Phil on their recent visit here and discussed some of the issues with some of them.

Does anyone else here regularly attend masterclasses given on all families of orchestral instruments by their greatest exponents in order to gain a greater understanding? If not, why not?

Oh, and I regularly tune the studio pianos used for movie soundtracks where only the finest of musicians are employed.

I sincerely hope nobody minds me posting my experience and factual knowledge on this thread.


I do not mind you posting on this thread, rXd.

I had a nice chance to attend those type of masterclasses twice, each time for two weeks in two different years.


Originally Posted By alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By rXd

...//SNIP//...

I describe a genuine historically informed ET that may date back to the 1850's at least, that is to say, to the seeds of the development of the modern piano. I only positively know of its existence over ninety years with personal experience of fifty of them. Living history if you like, those tuners of bygone days were no slouches, I have read some of their articles in old monthly "pianomaker" magazines dating from the 1920's and observed the work of and been taught by their students. Their accuracy was no different than today's very best efforts. They were trained as apprentices by masters who insisted on standards no different than the standards that produced the great pianos of old. A triumph of craftsmanship over technology. Tuning standards were the same.


It would take me too many words, in order to elucidate how standards and techniques develop in time.

The video linked below may work much better, hope you enjoy it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGUW1d0w8g

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2394953 - 03/07/15 02:24 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
JustHarmony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 40
Thanks for the encouragement, alfredo, but... well... I feel as though I'm about to "step in it" if I continue with this thread or start another. Those who know me would be stunned that I'm turning away from this topic by choice!

Maybe I'll hang around for a while and glean what I can from what others have already said.

Like I said... bummer.


JH

Top
#2395496 - 03/08/15 06:05 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
JustHarmony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/11
Posts: 40
Ahhh... I can't help myself after all. I started a new thread after ending up on topics of temperaments and tuning in another thread (temperaments and tuning: why it matters for pianists). It's more general, at this point, than discussing specific ETs, but feel free to come along to discuss. Hope to see some of you there. smile

JH



Edited by JustHarmony (03/08/15 06:06 PM)
Edit Reason: left out title of new thread

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