Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#2224594 - 02/02/14 11:55 AM any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords?
badtemperedclavier Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/01/14
Posts: 5
i feel a bit lost
plz anyone
plz try to clarify the function/role of the dim chords
i dont think i have seen any dim chord function in that way before, maybe i made some mistakes?
(using Steven Laitz & Edward Aldwell's texts)
i marked a b c for these pieces

for a: just start at bar9, in Em key,
we have bar 9&10 : i-iio6-i6-v6
the g#dim in bar11, whats that? 2nd inversion dim on #iii ?!
it sounds weird
anyway the F in next beat likely be Neapolitan 6/4...

for b: this piece start with an augmented Eb
but the key should be Eb
then what the hack is the chord at the end of bar3 ?
its enharmonic equ. to c# dim.

for c: it should be in Gm key
we got Gm-Dm-C#dim then back to Gm again
so..dim chord on #iv ??

any reply is appreciated

http://postimg.org/image/ss7ici2yt/
http://postimg.org/image/tnsyuvf47/
http://postimg.org/image/97vs5bdr5/


Edited by badtemperedclavier (02/02/14 12:10 PM)

Top
Piano & Music Acc. / Sheet Music


Sheet Music Plus Homepage
#2225301 - 02/03/14 05:18 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]
kdjupdal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/13
Posts: 23
A dim chord often function as a dominant, more spesifically as a secondary dominant

For your "A" example: A secondary dominant to the subdominant, (actually the Neapolitan subdominant). That is, an E7 going to Aminor

Top
#2225494 - 02/03/14 11:32 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]
badtemperedclavier Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/01/14
Posts: 5
well...
from my understanding
a 2nd dominant moves to its tonic
otherwise, in most cases, that 2nd function is invalid

the e in bar11 right hand part
its..well.. very likely to be a passing note
connecting f & d#
rather than a real chord member

plz..feel free to correct my any mistakes

Top
#2225715 - 02/04/14 11:02 AM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: badtemperedclavier
well...
from my understanding
a 2nd dominant moves to its tonic
otherwise, in most cases, that 2nd function is invalid

That's very rigid thinking that may apply in theory class, but this is a composition forum and we're always looking for new ways to use familiar harmonies.
Originally Posted By: badtemperedclavier

the e in bar11 right hand part
its..well.. very likely to be a passing note
connecting f & d#
rather than a real chord member

plz..feel free to correct my any mistakes

I was taught that diminished chords usually used in 1st inversion and these examples exhibit B and C that. None of these is an extraordinary usage of a diminished chord nif you remember that the symmetrical aspect of the chord allows any one of the notes to act as leading tone.

I will say I think example B is misspelled. If a chord is defined as stacked thirds then the E should be Fb and the G should be Abb or the Db could be C# which would make sense if you analyze this as a secondary dominant resolving to deceptively to F major which functions as a dominant of Bb. That would mean the diminished chord functions the secondary dominant of the secondary dominant.

As for C, it's a pretty straightforward usage in G minor.

Top
#2225842 - 02/04/14 04:05 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]
Jaap Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/23/13
Posts: 16
Loc: the Netherlands
Example A is a E56 chord. the E (the 3rd note in the right hand) is the actual root. You'll get EG#BD, a classic example of a sec dominant, moving into A, but here it moves into VI of A. If this were more cadencial, this would be a trugschlus.

I hear example B as a C with dim. 9th.
When you define a chord as stacked thirds you'll have to account for possible omissions.
The c9 makes sense since it functions as secondary dominant into Fm

As for example C, I perceive that as an II-34, with the root (A) omitted.
I think musically speaking that is what makes that example exciting. All voices go down, but the harmony (whan you hear the harmonic rhythm moving per measure) moves one up (from G to A). So the implied counterpoint has voices going in the opposite direction.

Top
#2229667 - 02/11/14 02:15 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: Jaap]
RMT Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Rosenberg, TX
I agree with JAAP on the first example. The only functional diminished chord in m9-11 is the unaltered II on beat 2 of m.9. The first chord of m.11 functions as altered I (E7). Beyond that concern, here are my thoughts. Of course it would be over-stretching to consider that an a minor region is tonicized convincingly to justify much analysis in that IV region in m.11; this is simply because of the passage's brevity and furthermore by the fact that the relationship E7 to a minor is interrupted by F major. However, I might argue that the a minor chord (IV) (beyond holding its own subdom function here in e minor) is well justified as an interruption of the subdominant-dominant chords (N - V7) specifically because of the harmonic enrichment of I7. The altered I enriches the harmony by locally mimicking a dominant-tonic relationship between altered I (E7) and a minor despite their separation by the F Neapolitan (I tend to dislike the term secondary dominant). Further enriching relationship is the fact that F major is diatonic in a minor. Clever harmony!

So - I see, showing tonal degree without full chord quality indication, starting with m. 9:

I - II - I - V7 - I altered - II altered (Neapolitan) - IV - V7 - I.


Interested to hear analysis by others.

Thanks!

_________________________
Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB

Top
#2229720 - 02/11/14 03:46 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]
RMT Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Rosenberg, TX
I agree with Jaap again on the second example. The harmony at the 2nd half of m.3 is functional as degree VI (c7 b9) with the root presented on the third beat and omitted from the chromatically driven (eb to e to f eventually at m.4) change in quality from VI unaltered to VI altered (at the end of the measure). This is a better analysis as the VI (C7) chord here moves by strong progression to II then on to V to I. The augmented chords at the beginning are simply colorings of the I chord. It is often helpful for analysis to view diminished chords as quasi-dominants with root omitted.
_________________________
Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB

Top
#2229775 - 02/11/14 04:57 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: Steve Chandler]
RMT Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Rosenberg, TX
The third example's chord in question seems pretty straightforward in the sense that the harmony at m.2 is an A7 chord w/ root omitted. This is a short example taken out of a larger context. Continuation would determine if the larger section is in g minor as indicated by the key sig or in d minor as indicated by the notes included in the example. There is no f# to point towards a g minor tonic, but we do have all diatonic notes of d minor including the leading tone and an e natural (not diatonic to g minor). On this small sample, a d minor chord would be the anticipated sounding tonic. The 2nd beat of m.1 could be just a written-out appoggiatura on a first inversion d minor chord followed by V7 of d minor. I think that if we played a d minor (or d major even) chord at the end of the example, we'd feel like we were "home".
_________________________
Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB

Top
#2230716 - 02/12/14 11:13 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: badtemperedclavier]
Leon Harrell Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/11/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Urbana
Hi badtemperedclavier,

A: mm.11 is an E Dominant, third inversion (E 4/2) or (E 2 in some textbooks)

The F is in the next beat and is an F major in second inversion (F 6/4) that could also be interpreted as an A minor with the F being a suspension resolving to the E.

Functionally in the key of e minor: The E Dominant is a V7 of iv which ultimately resolve to an A minor in first inversion (iv6) on the last subdivision of beat 2.

B: E fully diminished 7 functioning as viio7/ii (no Bb is present until the next beat in which case it acts as a 4-3 suspension over F) it resolves to F minor (ii in the key of Eb) that then resolve to V with another 4-3 suspension (Bb major with an Eb resolving to D)

C: Key of G minor, the chord is a viio in first inversion of V (C#o most likely ultimately leading to D major, the V chord, although the D chord is not shown in your excerpt).

Hope this helps, feel free to contact me with more questions,

-Leon
_________________________
In all my years as a piano teacher I've never seen a better piano learning software than this! Click here to get a free 30-day trial and read my full review.

Top
#2231502 - 02/14/14 12:45 PM Re: any harmony veteran? how to interpret these dim chords? [Re: Leon Harrell]
RMT Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Rosenberg, TX
Test - website problem.
_________________________
Ryan T.
2013 M&H BB

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha UX vs WX
by goldmund
10/25/14 11:34 AM
Need help with chords
by Shirz
10/25/14 07:52 AM
Which are the best forums for piano technicians and DIYers?
by Withindale
10/25/14 03:17 AM
Prelude
by noobpianist90
10/25/14 01:55 AM
Red Striped Screws and Fancy Nuts
by chernobieff
10/24/14 11:57 PM
Who's Online
121 registered (accordeur, anotherscott, Al LaPorte, anamnesis, 36 invisible), 1450 Guests and 9 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76651 Members
42 Forums
158488 Topics
2327524 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission