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#2224216 - 02/01/14 02:30 PM Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 316
Loc: UK
I came across a site for the above when looking for suppliers of Mapes or Roslou wire.
I'm wondering how what seems to be a smallish business manages to get, or is ithave made to spec, specialised wire: when the manufacture of same must be a massive undertaking?

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#2224373 - 02/01/14 08:20 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Goof]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3293
Not really sure what your question is. Are you asking how Arno Piano became the distributor for Paulello wire, or how can Paulello get the wire made?
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M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
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#2224401 - 02/01/14 09:26 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Goof]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
It's simple - just as in any field of commerce or industry, a (factory) minimum order must be met. The larger the volume, the lower the price per unit, and vice versa.

This is the main reason why tools and materials for specialized, niche markets such as piano technology are comparatively expensive.
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#2224402 - 02/01/14 09:28 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Goof]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1458
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I use some of the Paulello wires and Arno Patin is my contact. Usually it comes directly from France. I don't know for sure if it is made in France. Arno won't say.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2224466 - 02/02/14 02:43 AM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Goof]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 385
Loc: CO, USA
For what its worth, the web site of the company referred to in this thread heading (Arno) states:
http://www.arnopianos.com/#!piano-wire--rescaling/cfm1

"Mr. Paulello is a concert pianist, ..... His interest in historical French and German pianos led him to a thorough study of wire metallurgy, resulting in the creation of a line of high quality piano wire. This product features several classes of breaking load capacities and surface finishes. It is now manufactured to his specifications by a small independent steel company in Germany".

However, I cannot fathom how several classes of breaking load capacities works out to be a 'feature.' All of his wires have the same Young's modulus and are designed to be used in the elastic regime.

http://www.stephenpaulello.com/sites/def...ello_wire_0.pdf


Best wishes-





Edited by phacke (02/02/14 03:01 AM)
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phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2224509 - 02/02/14 07:47 AM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: beethoven986]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 316
Loc: UK
Having looked on the web for "wire mnfrs" it would appear that one has to order tons at time.
I was sort of "wondering" if there is such a demand for piano wire that a company could get a "factory" to make a small quantity of wire to a spec which was not USUAL for that factory.
But I guess Paulello wire is a specialist firm and can, for a price, smelt small quanties of any alloy?

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#2224510 - 02/02/14 07:52 AM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 316
Loc: UK
cool So is the wire any different/better than what you usually use?
Have you gone into the program of rescaling for any particular piano? If so were the results markedly different?

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#2224614 - 02/02/14 12:22 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: phacke]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1458
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Phacke,
The lower BP Paulello wire types sound "warmer" to the ear when used in the portions of a piano scale where low BP speaking lengths are found. The obvious reason for this audible difference is the effect on Longitudinal mode. The "softer" metal of lower BP high-carbon steel seems to be the important feature.

I have done no testing with accurate measurement apparatus to verify this. The evidence for it comes from the work of James Ellis RPT who has done some work like that, but not on Paulello wire.

My own work on developing my patent pending Fully Tempered Duplex Scale has proven to me (and others who have heard it) that controlling the L-modes can improve piano tone. Many of the disagreeable sounds found in some portions of piano scales seem to be from L-mode issues. Many technicians including myself used to think the high inharmonicity was the main problem-but experience has shown that both issues are significant.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2224714 - 02/02/14 03:55 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 316
Loc: UK
Interesting! If you are taking into account the "give and take" which happens in longitudinal vibration then I could see the Stuart bridge agaff allowing this to happen right down to the hitch pin?

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#2224728 - 02/02/14 04:28 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Goof]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1458
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Goof,
I have done about a dozen scale modifications using "softer" wire types from Paulello and Pure Sound-and other technicians have done many as well. Only one that I have done required further refinement to string type to bring it to the category of great tone.

The options created by these wires are many and I don't think anyone yet has refined the best parameters. Combine this with the stainless wraps now available from Mapes and the nickel plated iron from Paulello and the options grow greatly.

The most exciting possibilities are that tri-chord wound strings can be placed higher in the compass than was practical before. This keeps the full tone of three strings coupling available deeper into the compass. This can make small pianos that sound clearer, bigger and warmer than before.

I know of no manufacturer who is using this technology.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2224733 - 02/02/14 04:40 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 316
Loc: UK
Ed if you have a moment - ?
1.Would replacing the copper wound strings on an expensive new piano necessarilly make for a different sound.
2. Would it be make a big difference to change 50 yr old copper-wrapped strings for s.steel wrapped - instead of going for new copper wrapped.
These are hypothetical so a "probably" would be great.

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#2224739 - 02/02/14 04:52 PM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Goof]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1458
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I would have to experience your piano and come to understand your piano needs to answer your questions in a way that is meaningful.

Replacing wound strings can make a different sound on any piano regardless of retail price-especially if the specs are different.

First we have to define what are the string problems we are trying to solve and what are the tones that are excellent. You don't want to lose what you like.

I try to move the "like" tone qualities into the scale parts that are weaker.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2224978 - 02/03/14 03:01 AM Re: Paulello Piano wire and the Arno Piano [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 385
Loc: CO, USA
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Phacke,
The lower BP Paulello wire types sound "warmer" to the ear when used in the portions of a piano scale where low BP speaking lengths are found. The obvious reason for this audible difference is the effect on Longitudinal mode. The "softer" metal of lower BP high-carbon steel seems to be the important feature.

I have done no testing with accurate measurement apparatus to verify this. The evidence for it comes from the work of James Ellis RPT who has done some work like that, but not on Paulello wire.

My own work on developing my patent pending Fully Tempered Duplex Scale has proven to me (and others who have heard it) that controlling the L-modes can improve piano tone. Many of the disagreeable sounds found in some portions of piano scales seem to be from L-mode issues. Many technicians including myself used to think the high inharmonicity was the main problem-but experience has shown that both issues are significant.


Thanks again, Mr. McMorrow-

I'll have to look up the writings of James Ellis some time.

There is no doubt that controlling the L-modes is critical and I think I am going through the same learning curve that you described about its relevance in comparison to the inharmonicity.

I am wondering when in the development of the piano people starting paying attention to it, controlling it, and optimizing it..

I'm also wondering how to describe the preferences with respect to the L-modes.

Conklin's recording of "Yankee Doodle Went to Town" played by adjusting the L-mode is 'sound example 5' on this page here:
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/conklin/longitudinal.html

Referencing this, maybe one guy will say "I like Doodle" and another will say "adjust for me the L-mode to get macaroni ! "

Best wishes-


Edited by phacke (02/03/14 03:02 AM)
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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