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#2223509 - 01/31/14 08:54 AM The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action
WurliFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 205
Loc: Western PA
Okie dokie. I've decided to save up the $ Until my birthday, which is approaching soon. March. I will then have around 350 dollars to service my Spinet. This'll do something, no doubt about it.
Nowie, since the other Piano is getting left in the dust, I was wondering if someone could tell me how to adjust the lost motion on it. Oh, yes, you're probably already thinking, 'Oh, god, this kid is at it again', but fear not! I am quite sure I can do this lost motion adjustment. There are no capstans on this piano. At the end of the keys, there are two screws. This is the shamed Weaver Metal Bracket action. Now, for those who have attempted to adjust the lost motion on these types of actions, (And you're probably wondering why I would waste my time on such a horrible thing), would I screw them in tightly, or does there need to be an equal balance between the screws for optimum motion response? It seems very simple. It's just two screws per each note. I just need to know how to do it.
I will attach a video I found showing this Piano's action, if needed.


I'm sorry for all these questions, but this Is pretty much the last I have concerning piano Action. I know some of you have probably already gotten tired of my endless Spinet Enthusiasm...heh..... whome
_________________________
1952 Wurlitzer 2150 Spinet...'The boogie-nator' laugh
I'm OCD with pianos, spinets in particular.
Famous Studios That Have Used Spinets in the 50s, just for fun!
Sun Records
Specialty Records
Atlantic Records
Roulette Records
Stax Records
Imperial Records
Chess Records
Still counting.....

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#2223538 - 01/31/14 09:55 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2466
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
What you're looking for in the proper amount of lost motion is between the back check and the hammer butt; what is desired is only enough lost motion so there is a very slight movement in the back check before you see the hammer butt move when the key is played. The adjustment is made where the key interfaces with the drop action sticker; either a capstan screw on the key, or a sticker nut if the sticker is directly connected to the back of the key.

It's your piano, and you care about it. That's all that matters. smile
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2223639 - 01/31/14 12:53 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: OperaTenor]
WurliFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 205
Loc: Western PA
Operatenor, thank you for that. I noticed that the screws and or capstans directly affect the whippen blow distance between the whippen itself and the hammer 'butt.'
BUT, I tried this on the last few keys, screwing in the screws as tight as they go, and it didn't help, I think it made it worse. This was before I knew how this stuff worked, though. Perhaps now I can fix it.
This isn't my Piano; this piano is my Grandmother's. However, half the time I feel like it IS mine, since she never takes care of it.

I tried this myself on my piano, got some very good help. It worked. I just wanted to clarify for this piano, if it had anything else different to it. It's certainly easier than the capstans on mine; the screws just go in the back of the key.

Also, I noticed something for Spinet actions; you have to 'float' them. You can't play too hard or else the notes will 'block up.'
_________________________
1952 Wurlitzer 2150 Spinet...'The boogie-nator' laugh
I'm OCD with pianos, spinets in particular.
Famous Studios That Have Used Spinets in the 50s, just for fun!
Sun Records
Specialty Records
Atlantic Records
Roulette Records
Stax Records
Imperial Records
Chess Records
Still counting.....

Top
#2223731 - 01/31/14 04:32 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 384
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Before you adjust for lost motion make certain the hammer blow is correct. Also, due to the compression of the damper felt and their early lift, be aware that taking up the lost motion may lift the dampers off the strings.
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2223789 - 01/31/14 06:22 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Craig Hair Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 210
Loc: Holyoke, MA
In adjusting rocker capstans, in order to not damage the key, you must first make room in the direction you wish to move. Then the slack is taken up by the other screw and the adjustment is made. First loosen a screw, then tighen the other. The system is never over tightened, just firm enough so that nothing rattles. I'm surprised to hear about them in a 52 Wurlitzer, as they went out of fashion with the open face pinblock.
Still, it is a solid system, and maybe a little more convenient in a spinet than those micro capstans. Do you have the Wurlitzer service manual? I looked through mine and couln't find your configuration.


Edited by Craig Hair (01/31/14 06:24 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Holyoke, MA

hampshirepiano.co
soundboardrecrown.com

If I seem slow, I simply must be stopped

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#2223814 - 01/31/14 07:11 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: Craig Hair]
WurliFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 205
Loc: Western PA
This is what my 1952 Wurlitzer Action looks like:
http://www.corner1.com/spinetaction.jpg

It's a wee bit more precise than the 'standard' spinet action. I've adjusted the little capstan (10) on mine. Worked well.


This is the action I am talking about, not a Wurli, but a Weaver.
(And no, that's not me, but you can clearly see the action in this dude's video.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKx5dUTxxpU <<<<This action. Right here. See the ends of the keys? I know how to work the capstans, but these are screws. And yes, that is a Spinet. My grandma has the exact same Piano. It's only 37 inches tall. It's funny though because the hammers are way above the keys.
_________________________
1952 Wurlitzer 2150 Spinet...'The boogie-nator' laugh
I'm OCD with pianos, spinets in particular.
Famous Studios That Have Used Spinets in the 50s, just for fun!
Sun Records
Specialty Records
Atlantic Records
Roulette Records
Stax Records
Imperial Records
Chess Records
Still counting.....

Top
#2223831 - 01/31/14 07:39 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 384
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
I couldn't tell be the video and I doubt that anyone would go to the trouble and expense of a rocker arm on a spinet. I could be a metal plate or yoke which has a screw holding onto the keystick. The screw at the end leading to the sticker is just a long screw going into there wooden sticker. Turning the screw clock-wise lifts the wippen and takes up lost motion. SO the two screws are probably a yoke mounting screw and sticker adjustment screw.
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2223855 - 01/31/14 08:11 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Craig Hair Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 210
Loc: Holyoke, MA
I'm not sure what the confusion is. They sure look like rocker capstans in the video, though it is blurry.
_________________________
Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Holyoke, MA

hampshirepiano.co
soundboardrecrown.com

If I seem slow, I simply must be stopped

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#2223861 - 01/31/14 08:18 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
I remember seeing Weaver rocker arms in a catalog a long time ago, but I have not seen them in person. What you need to do is to move the wippen up or down when the keys are at rest, so that if you tug back on the hammer rail, the hammers barely move. If you are mechanically inclined, you can see what you need to adjust to do this.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2223916 - 01/31/14 11:22 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
WurliFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 205
Loc: Western PA
I think I can do this now on this piano.
Once again, thanks to all of you amazing people who have the patience to answer some kid's questions.
Some faith in humanity hath been restored.......
_________________________
1952 Wurlitzer 2150 Spinet...'The boogie-nator' laugh
I'm OCD with pianos, spinets in particular.
Famous Studios That Have Used Spinets in the 50s, just for fun!
Sun Records
Specialty Records
Atlantic Records
Roulette Records
Stax Records
Imperial Records
Chess Records
Still counting.....

Top
#2223921 - 01/31/14 11:34 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21922
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: WurliFan

Some faith in humanity hath been restored.......

You are assuming we are all human? smile
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2223937 - 02/01/14 12:17 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: BDB]
WurliFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 205
Loc: Western PA
BDB, I think you are. As far as I know, I am, too.


I'm not sure about the others, though....... eek

What if this Piano forum is actually an alien conspiracy bent on taking over the earth?
shocked



Edited by WurliFan (02/01/14 12:17 AM)
Edit Reason: Grammar Fail. For the LULZ!
_________________________
1952 Wurlitzer 2150 Spinet...'The boogie-nator' laugh
I'm OCD with pianos, spinets in particular.
Famous Studios That Have Used Spinets in the 50s, just for fun!
Sun Records
Specialty Records
Atlantic Records
Roulette Records
Stax Records
Imperial Records
Chess Records
Still counting.....

Top
#2224038 - 02/01/14 07:55 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I have always feared an attack by the Whippens.

They are from the planet Agraffe and their motto is Doom to Digital.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2224039 - 02/01/14 07:56 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Oh dear, they caused me to repeat and double strike.


Edited by Minnesota Marty (02/01/14 07:58 AM)
Edit Reason: I double posted against my will!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2224045 - 02/01/14 08:19 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Craig Hair Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 210
Loc: Holyoke, MA
I found this image of a Weaver Rocker Arm in an old Tuner's Supply catalog from 1969.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/xvJEZPraEE2BCVu9GNMp8G_LSC6EB1wAEGdJi8zzAF8=w258-h207-p-no
_________________________
Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Holyoke, MA

hampshirepiano.co
soundboardrecrown.com

If I seem slow, I simply must be stopped

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#2224118 - 02/01/14 10:42 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 384
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Then on a rocker arm, to take up lost motion you need to loosen (back out) the rear screw at the end of the key and tighten (screw in) the front screw (the one closer to the balance rail). You have to keep going back and forth until the end of the rocker is the proper height (lost motion) and both screws are firmly secure to the rocker. Capstans are a much faster adjustment.
_________________________
Regards,

Jon Page
Piano technician/tuner
Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.pianocapecod.com

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#2224134 - 02/01/14 11:31 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1494
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I will add that a fast technique in adjusting lost motion can be helpful. Especially if the soft pedal dowel is resting on the edge of the little cup that is attached under the hammer rest rail, thereby creating excessive lost motion, which you have no idea how that happened, and then you spend 30 minutes adjusting all the lost motion, only to notice as you take a break to examine your handy work, that the soft dowel is stuck. Then you replace the dowel and, poof, all the hammers are sitting up off the hammer rest rail. DOH!

Anyway, if the felt between the action brackets and the hammer rest rail is not too hard, you can use this technique to quickly assess and adjust lost motion.

1) Grab the hammer rest rail and pull back on it gently. If any hammers have insufficient lost motion, they will not move. Turn them down a bit.

2) When all the hammers move with the rail on a gentle pull, and there is sufficient flexibility in the action bracket felt, pull a little harder. They should all eventually stop moving. Any hammers that keep moving with the rail, have too much lost motion. Turn them up a bit until they all stop moving on a hard pull.

You will get an idea of how hard you can pull. Sometimes, it is not possible to pull enough, due to there stiffness of the action bracket felt.

Note: on some actions, this technique does not work because there are indents in the hammer butt. I.e. there is lost motion, but because of the indent, the jack still does not return. The only way to check this is to do the jack trip test.

Hope that helps.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (02/01/14 11:33 AM)
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2224653 - 02/02/14 01:50 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 293
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
Some faith in humanity hath been restored.......


Had bitter experience led you to lose faith in humanity, WurlFan? Sorry to hear it if so!

Always feel free to ask questions here!

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#2224747 - 02/02/14 05:03 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: David Boyce]
WurliFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 205
Loc: Western PA
Naw; Although I've seen some very petty arguments about the stupidest things on this forum, and those who think they are right about everything and Instantly try to argue their point....... smile I haven't really had a bad experience. There are a lot more ignoramuses in the world today.

On a side note. The Weaver repeats faster than my Wurli. I tested it out today. The note barely started to block up. (About 10 reps a second, I would say. My Wurli can only do about 8. I'll go off this note when I perform the Adjustments, Because it feels and repeats the best.)
It uses more of a Direct Blow action. I seriously need to get some pictures, because the Hammers sit wayyyy above the keys.
Oh, shoot, that's right, I'm grounded from my Ipod.
THE JOYS OF BEING A TEEN. grin
And why did I get grounded from my Ipod?
Because I moved my piano out from the wall two feet to hear it better. Whew!
(And yes when I move it I lift up on the legs so it doesn't hurt the Piano. Doesn't make it go out of tune, either.)
You can sort of understand the amount of BS I have to deal with over this piano...heh.....
_________________________
1952 Wurlitzer 2150 Spinet...'The boogie-nator' laugh
I'm OCD with pianos, spinets in particular.
Famous Studios That Have Used Spinets in the 50s, just for fun!
Sun Records
Specialty Records
Atlantic Records
Roulette Records
Stax Records
Imperial Records
Chess Records
Still counting.....

Top
#2224751 - 02/02/14 05:08 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: Minnesota Marty]
WurliFan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/13
Posts: 205
Loc: Western PA
Marty, did they forget to add another pad to your room?
I think the problem was they only gave you one layer to begin with........ laugh
THE ATTACK OF THE WHIPPENS; Now in Technicolor and Sterephonic Sound!
I can imagine it now....we could make millions.

Also, thank you to everyone else on this topic who has commented. For the sake of posting too much, I won't thank everyone individually; but keep in mind that I take all of your suggestions and advice, and I appreciate it. smile
_________________________
1952 Wurlitzer 2150 Spinet...'The boogie-nator' laugh
I'm OCD with pianos, spinets in particular.
Famous Studios That Have Used Spinets in the 50s, just for fun!
Sun Records
Specialty Records
Atlantic Records
Roulette Records
Stax Records
Imperial Records
Chess Records
Still counting.....

Top
#2224756 - 02/02/14 05:16 PM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
David Boyce Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 293
Loc: Scotland
Quote:
And why did I get grounded from my Ipod?
Because I moved my piano out from the wall two feet to hear it better. Whew!


You've suffered for your art! 'Twas ever thus....

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#2225011 - 02/03/14 06:01 AM Re: The Last Question I, The Noob, Have, Regarding Piano Action [Re: WurliFan]
Craig Hair Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/11
Posts: 210
Loc: Holyoke, MA
This may cause some real uproar, but an old dealer's trick for making a spinet sound bigger is to put it across a corner. Uprights should be a few inches away from the wall at any rate.
_________________________
Craig Hair
Hampshire Piano
Holyoke, MA

hampshirepiano.co
soundboardrecrown.com

If I seem slow, I simply must be stopped

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