Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#2223254 - 01/30/14 05:11 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: beet31425]
slava_richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 160
Loc: Providence, RI
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: slava_richter
Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes.

I never play the trill note simultaneously with the melody note, even if it's feasible reach-wise. I just don't have the technique for it, and the approximation (leaving the trill note out when the melody sounds) sounds very very good.

I'm influenced here by my teacher, who takes the view that all music is a sequence of aural illusions, and focusing extensively on playing every black dot exactly as written is often not the best approach for most of us.

-Jason


Thanks for your input, Jason. I agree, the illusion of playing the trill this way sounds very good. I just wonder if everyone plays it like this (the 'approximate' way, I mean)???

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2223261 - 01/30/14 05:37 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7503
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Is Op. 111 his greatest sonata?

Not only his greatest sonata, but the greatest sonata in the repertoire, with competition only from his other late sonatas, 106 especially.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2223276 - 01/30/14 06:32 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Polyphonist]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3709
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Is Op. 111 his greatest sonata?

Not only his greatest sonata, but the greatest sonata in the repertoire, with competition only from his other late sonatas, 106 especially.

It seems that the world of Beethoven lovers is divided into those who feel this way about 109 and those who feel this way about 111. Both groups deeply love both sonatas, but it tends to be one or the other that one feels is the ultimate statement. (I happen to be a "111 person", like you, myself.)

-J
_________________________
Beethoven: op.109, 110, 111

Top
#2223287 - 01/30/14 07:00 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7503
Loc: New York City
Yes, I would say the 109 has the lowly position of only the third greatest sonata in the entire literature. ha

But seriously, how could one find the finale of 109 more profound than that of 111? I can't understand it. Even the slow movement or finale of 106 I'll take over 109 any day. (Although that variation theme is to die for.)
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2223333 - 01/30/14 08:55 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: slava_richter]
hreichgott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/13
Posts: 869
Loc: western MA, USA
Originally Posted By: slava_richter
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: slava_richter
Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes.

I never play the trill note simultaneously with the melody note, even if it's feasible reach-wise. I just don't have the technique for it, and the approximation (leaving the trill note out when the melody sounds) sounds very very good.

I'm influenced here by my teacher, who takes the view that all music is a sequence of aural illusions, and focusing extensively on playing every black dot exactly as written is often not the best approach for most of us.

-Jason


Thanks for your input, Jason. I agree, the illusion of playing the trill this way sounds very good. I just wonder if everyone plays it like this (the 'approximate' way, I mean)???

It is exactly that, an approximation, in case one can't manage the real way.
Just as those of us who are not 6'4" must find ways to approximate most large reaches smile
_________________________
Heather W. Reichgott, piano http://heatherwreichgott.blogspot.com
Sounding the depths of small pieces: Beethoven Op. 33
Daily attempts at 16th notes: Chopin Op. 10 no. 4, Pischna
Totally loving Fauré/Barcarolles and Ravel/Tombeau de Couperin
I love Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and new music

Top
#2223339 - 01/30/14 09:12 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: beet31425]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
Originally Posted By: beet31425
Originally Posted By: slava_richter
Speaking of which, how do people generally play these trill+melody passages? Do you play the melody note 'in-between' the trill notes, or do you play the melody note together with one of the trill notes and just bring it out? I've been practicing it the former way. In some pieces - the trill+octave in Op. 106, or in Op. 109 where the melody is a 10th away from the trill - I don't see any other choice. Even when reach is not an issue, I find that it sounds much better when the melody note is played 'in-between' the trill notes.

I never play the trill note simultaneously with the melody note, even if it's feasible reach-wise. I just don't have the technique for it, and the approximation (leaving the trill note out when the melody sounds) sounds very very good.

I'm influenced here by my teacher, who takes the view that all music is a sequence of aural illusions, and focusing extensively on playing every black dot exactly as written is often not the best approach for most of us.



Busoni has some interesting trill studies and in some of them he writes out this way of playing the Beethovenian trills.

Top
#2223415 - 01/31/14 12:41 AM Re: How to practice trills [Re: beet31425]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7503
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: beet31425
It seems that the world of Beethoven lovers is divided into those who feel this way about 109 and those who feel this way about 111. Both groups deeply love both sonatas, but it tends to be one or the other that one feels is the ultimate statement. (I happen to be a "111 person", like you, myself.)

As Artur Rubinstein put it, "The human race does not deserve the finale of Opus 111."
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2223682 - 01/31/14 02:27 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 671
I tried asking Atrys about this, and in terms of the interossei muscles, he believes that one size fits all in terms of what fingers are used to play a trill.

Specifically, I would like your thoughts on the trills in the first four measures of the Brahms Paganini Variations, Var. IV. I have the Cortot Edition which says to play them in two triplets, instead of three duplets.

Earl Wild played them in duplets and Thibaudet plays them in triplets, much slower. Also, Cortot allows for a roll for those like myself who can't make the reach, and as you all know, I personally think that is the way Brahms played them himself.

So, I know all about the accents, and relaxation, so please let me know what your experience has been with this particular piece.

Hey, for all I know Atrys may be correct. If he is, I see no reason the same logic could not be used on the double thirds in measures #17 & 18 in Debussy's L'Isle joyeyse.

Also, there are Youtube videos out there of pianists playing this with fingerings other than four and five. When Olga Kern was here in San Antonio, trying to play this piece, she rolled the chords and used an alternate fingering. I mention this because of what the guy in the video says about using one and three, and also three and five.

Top
#2223728 - 01/31/14 04:23 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Louis Podesta]
slava_richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 160
Loc: Providence, RI
I haven't studied the Brahms-Paganini in-depth, I've only worked on a few variations as a sort of test of my technique. I've worked on Var IV and I played the chords 1-2-4, and trilled with 3-5. I don't really see any other way of doing it, other than rolling the chords but then it kind of defeats the purpose. I guess if you can't reach the chords, you don't have a choice. Although, my hands are not large at all (I can barely make a useable tenth from a white key to a white key) and I can still pull it off.

In general, I find 3-5 to be a very comfortable combination for trills. 1-2, 1-3, and 3-5 work pretty much the same for me. 2-3 and 2-4 are harder, although 2-4 is quite comfortable for certain trills - for example, if I trill B-flat and C in the right hand, 2-4 is about as good as 3-5. 4-5 trills are obviously the hardest and I try to use 3-5 instead wherever possible.

I actually found those leaping arpeggios to be the real problem with that variation. The trills more or less worked themselves out. Variation I has to be the worst of the lot: double-sixths in the left hand for two pages!!!

Top
#2223786 - 01/31/14 06:19 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: slava_richter]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 671
Originally Posted By: slava_richter
I haven't studied the Brahms-Paganini in-depth, I've only worked on a few variations as a sort of test of my technique. I've worked on Var IV and I played the chords 1-2-4, and trilled with 3-5. I don't really see any other way of doing it, other than rolling the chords but then it kind of defeats the purpose. I guess if you can't reach the chords, you don't have a choice. Although, my hands are not large at all (I can barely make a useable tenth from a white key to a white key) and I can still pull it off.

In general, I find 3-5 to be a very comfortable combination for trills. 1-2, 1-3, and 3-5 work pretty much the same for me. 2-3 and 2-4 are harder, although 2-4 is quite comfortable for certain trills - for example, if I trill B-flat and C in the right hand, 2-4 is about as good as 3-5. 4-5 trills are obviously the hardest and I try to use 3-5 instead wherever possible.

I actually found those leaping arpeggios to be the real problem with that variation. The trills more or less worked themselves out. Variation I has to be the worst of the lot: double-sixths in the left hand for two pages!!!


Thanks for the input.

1) Alfred Cortot, who had one or two female students in his teaching career, makes mention of the small hand. And, he therefore authorizes the roll. My hand is the same size as yours, but I have thin spindly fingers.

2) Accordingly, I figured out, and their is a Youtube of a concert pianist doing the same, that, after the roll, you finger 1,3,1,5,4. When you throw yourself into the roll, and then finger one and three, then five and four is a natural finish.

3) If you instead meant Variation II, when it came to the sixths in the left hand, I offer the following suggestion/observation: According to Earl Wild, Rachmaninoff (his personal friend) use to make a big deal about being able to go from one note to another at high speed with his thumb. Therefore, if you slide the thumb in the left hand, then you don't have the twisting and turning of four/one & five/two. You can do the same thing in Variation I, in the right hand.

Once again, thanks. Personally, I recommend the Earl Wild recording, and also the Claudio Arrau recording of this piece.

Top
#2223915 - 01/31/14 11:18 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
slava_richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 160
Loc: Providence, RI
Yes, sorry, I meant variation II, not I; the latter is not as difficult, although, it's also brutal. I've tried using only the thumb in the second variation and I couldn't get it to sound as good as 1-4/2-5. I guess my 'sliding' technique is not quite good enough to pull it off. With Rachmaninoff's huge hands, I don't see why he would have needed to use his thumb; I would think that it would have been easy for him to play those sixths with the usual fingering, since my problem with them was the stretch. But then, he was Rachmaninoff, and I am a nobody!

I have that Arrau recording on LP and it is sensational! Michelangeli, Katchen, and Gilels are also great, although Michelangeli doesn't play all of the variations and he mixes up the order.

Top
#2224779 - 02/02/14 05:54 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
Dwscamel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/22/13
Posts: 448
You know, it's funny, when I heard Beethoven's op.111 for the first time years ago, it was one of the first "big" pieces of classical piano music I had ever heard, and I loved it. It remained close to me, even when I had stopped listening to most of Beethoven's music.

I'm happy to see it has such a cult following and sacred position in the rep.

Top
#2224786 - 02/02/14 06:12 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 671
I proffer just an observation: why doesn't any one answer slava richter's question specific to the melody note/combination trill? My example of this is in the last variation, third movement, of the Beethoven 109.

My late teacher taught me to practice the trills in accented triplets, and to also strike the melody note at the beginning of each group, whether it is the thumb or fifth finger. It works for me.

What are any of your other experiences?

Top
#2225105 - 02/03/14 09:53 AM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
slava_richter Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 160
Loc: Providence, RI
Thanks for your thoughts, Louis. If I'm understanding you correctly, I think your 'accented triplet' is what I meant by playing the melody 'between' the trill notes.

To use Op. 109 as an example, I would play the trill/melody in the right hand as: B-C#-(accented melody B)-B-C#-etc. At high speed, you don't really notice that the trill is being broken so the 'illusion' is there.

What I'm interested in is whether most people play it this way, and if Beethoven intended it to be played this way. I have two opposing pieces of evidence for the latter question: in Op 81a, third movement, he writes out the trill and the melody in this case is played with the principal note of the trill. But then in Op. 109, in the 6th variation after both hands have played trills/melody, the right hand is doing trill/melody while the left hand is playing passages. At some point, the right hand has to play a C# melody note while trilling B-C#. You either have to break the trill and do the 'accented triplet', or you need a huge hand to play the melody note on with the principal trill note. What was Beethoven looking for? Or maybe, he didn't care, as long as it sounded good...

Top
#2225411 - 02/03/14 08:59 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
phantomFive Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/11/14
Posts: 1131
Loc: California
Sometimes it helps me to listen to other pianists' technique. This is a great video for a lot of comparisons:

_________________________
Poetry is rhythm.

Top
#2225940 - 02/04/14 06:28 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: slava_richter]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 671
Originally Posted By: slava_richter
Thanks for your thoughts, Louis. If I'm understanding you correctly, I think your 'accented triplet' is what I meant by playing the melody 'between' the trill notes.

To use Op. 109 as an example, I would play the trill/melody in the right hand as: B-C#-(accented melody B)-B-C#-etc. At high speed, you don't really notice that the trill is being broken so the 'illusion' is there.

What I'm interested in is whether most people play it this way, and if Beethoven intended it to be played this way. I have two opposing pieces of evidence for the latter question: in Op 81a, third movement, he writes out the trill and the melody in this case is played with the principal note of the trill. But then in Op. 109, in the 6th variation after both hands have played trills/melody, the right hand is doing trill/melody while the left hand is playing passages. At some point, the right hand has to play a C# melody note while trilling B-C#. You either have to break the trill and do the 'accented triplet', or you need a huge hand to play the melody note on with the principal trill note. What was Beethoven looking for? Or maybe, he didn't care, as long as it sounded good...


I shared this personally with slava richter, and I do not think this person would mind me sharing the following clarification with you:

"regarding the Op. 109, I will use rhythmic notation, as they do at Juilliard.

When you start the triplets (starting on the fourth finger) you play a group of 1 - la - li, 2 -la - li. And, then you go on to the next melody note and repeat the same process."

Also, I dare any one of you to turn the lights out in your room at night, and then close your eyes and listen to Schnabel's recording of the last movement of the Op. 109.

For those of you who are atheists or agnostics, it will not mean much, but for the rest of us, it does!

Top
#2225946 - 02/04/14 06:32 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Louis Podesta]
Vid Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 802
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Originally Posted By: Louis Podesta

For those of you who are atheists or agnostics, it will not mean much, but for the rest of us, it does!


What the heck is that supposed to mean???

(PW translated the 'heck' for me)
_________________________
Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D

Top
#2225970 - 02/04/14 07:17 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7503
Loc: New York City
+1...Beethoven's spirituality goes far beyond religion.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2226522 - 02/05/14 06:51 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Polyphonist]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 671
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
+1...Beethoven's spirituality goes far beyond religion.


Thank you very much for clarifying that point. The concept of spirituality goes far beyond traditional religion, especially, specific to this discussion, as it regards the piano.

Top
#2226526 - 02/05/14 06:55 PM Re: How to practice trills [Re: Danijelcro]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7503
Loc: New York City
So what were you trying to say?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
75,000 Members and Growing!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
142 registered (AndrewJCW, AmateurBob, 36251, 37 invisible), 1745 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75509 Members
42 Forums
156142 Topics
2292916 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pianist Noah Landis - Lowell, MA Sept. 6th
by Piano World
49 minutes 8 seconds ago
Guidance for Publishing
by Dachshund
56 minutes 3 seconds ago
Keith Emerson Playing NY in October!
by Piano World
Today at 05:52 PM
Action parts any different from 80s,90s, 2k Charles Walter?
by Gatsbee13
Today at 04:36 PM
Question about finger reach!
by Plopsy
Today at 04:23 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission