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#2225452 - 02/03/14 09:58 PM Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it?
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1023
Loc: Irvine, CA
I discover that one of my student has perfect pitch. He can tell me the name of the note by using his ear when I play on piano.
Do you have such student?
What do you do about the ability of perfect pitch?
How do you embrace it?
Do you change they way you teach just because he is perfect pitch?
Any suggestions in books that I should use with him?
Basically I am looking for suggestion that will help my student further his gift.

Thanks!!
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#2225463 - 02/03/14 10:17 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
kck Offline
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Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 268
One of my kids has perfect pitch. I don't think his teacher has changed his teaching style because of it. It's a cool parlor trick. He can name the keys of pieces at concerts, etc. He's very good at naming intervals, etc when he's done exams.
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#2225470 - 02/03/14 10:35 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted By: ezpiano.org
I discover that one of my student has perfect pitch. He can tell me the name of the note by using his ear when I play on piano.

That's not perfect pitch.
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#2225482 - 02/03/14 11:02 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Loc: Irvine, CA
I am sorry, what is this called?
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#2225488 - 02/03/14 11:14 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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It's relative pitch.
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#2225499 - 02/03/14 11:37 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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If ezpiano is playing a piece if F major, and the student can hear it going from the tonic to 3 notes up and says "A", then he is using relative pitch. Likewise if ezpiano plays G and the student knows the first note is G, and then plays the next note up and the student says it's A, then the student is using relative pitch. But if the teacher plays random notes and the student can say what they are, that is "perfect pitch".

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#2225511 - 02/03/14 11:57 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Polyphonist Offline
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It would still be relative pitch. Perfect pitch would be the ability to sing any requested pitch from a blank slate.
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#2225518 - 02/04/14 12:24 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: kck]
AZNpiano Offline
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Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: kck
It's a cool parlor trick.

I wish people would stop using such a negative term to describe a great musical gift.

If you teach a lot of students who speak a tonal language, then you might run into quite a few students with perfect pitch. They still need help identifying intervals quickly--they tend to hear individual notes, but not necessarily intervals.

Some of these kids with perfect pitch will have a difficult time naming more than 1 note at a time, so they'll need help with harmonic intervals, blocked triads, and blocked seventh chords.

You can also train them to audiate, hearing music in their head just by looking at a score.

I've yet to come across books that specifically teach kids with perfect pitch. I just change my strategy slightly and don't waste my time with ear training as much during lessons. Their ears are MUCH more developed than kids who rely on relative pitch, which takes a LONG time to develop, if it's developed at all.
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#2225520 - 02/04/14 12:29 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
ezpiano.org Offline
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Registered: 05/10/11
Posts: 1023
Loc: Irvine, CA
Thank you KS
I was playing random notes and he told me the names of it.
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#2225523 - 02/04/14 12:39 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Brinestone Offline
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Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 357
If I had a student with perfect pitch, I would teach them how to audiate (as mentioned here already) and to learn pieces by ear.

And Polyphonist, you're not quite right, at least according to Wikipedia (though other sources I've read have agreed with the general definition provided there): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_pitch.
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#2225573 - 02/04/14 03:04 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Online   content
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RELATIVE pitch means that you need a first note, a bases to start naming the rest of the notes.

If the student, out of blue is listening anything on the radio, or piano, or whatever and he can tell the notes then this IS perfect pitch.
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#2225741 - 02/04/14 12:21 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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There are two basic concepts, but they have a lot of sides to them - and that's reflected in PP's post. Personally I would prefer if the term "pitch recognition" or at least "absolute pitch" replaced "perfect pitch" because the "perfect" is problematic and suggests something else (probably why PP is hung up).

In "relative" pitch, you can hear how one note relates to one you have already heard. Most primitively, you can hear that it is higher or lower - maybe how much higher or lower. You may be able to play the 2nd note after hearing the first one played - if you know where the 1st note was. You might get it exactly right (a whole tone higher) or approximate (higher - but not how much higher). You may have Solfege, so you hear it along a major scale. If you sing or play an instrument where you produce pitch, it may help you play the next notes, because you have these relationships mapped out in your ear.

Relative pitch is like knowing "Mary lives two houses over from the red house." You don't even have to know what Mary looks like. You just have to find the red house, and go over two more. If you have r.p. with Solfege, then if someone plays the first 3 notes of Baa Baa Black Sheep, then "Black" is a 5th up for you i.e. Sol. If in D major, you won't be hearing "A" as a pitch: if in G major you wont' be hearing "D" as a pitch.... you hear the same thing: P5.

In pitch recognition" / "absolute pitch" you recognize A as A. It is a distinct sound, like an apple is an apple. You can recognize Mary regardless of whether she is next to the red house or flying in a hot air balloon - she looks like Mary. With this type of pitch, I would recognize "Black" because it is A, and I may not even be aware that it is a P5 from the previous note.

If you can recognize A as A, does it mean that you can associate it with a piano key? You hear pitch X - will your finger reach for the key where X is related? If you can, then you don't need to know its name. If you have memorized that this pitch is called A, and this piano key is called A, then you have a two step process. In that case, maybe "5 over from where I am" is more immediate. What if, in singing, you don't have the physical control over your voice? You could possibly recognize the pitch, but your voice won't do what you want - then it will seem that you don't recognize it.

"Perfect" pitch also refers to something rather exact. Someone who sings "off key" or approximately gets to the note and doesn't adjust, has a vague recognition. The same as an approximation of what "A" might be. If you actually do have a crystal clear, precise picture of a pitch --- A = 440, and if you hear 442 or 438 it throws you off - then you may actually have a problem. There is no such thing as "perfect" because nobody can be that 100% precise. In any case, I think this is what PP is thinking about. It would not be helpful in ezpiano's particular context however.

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#2225744 - 02/04/14 12:25 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
keystring Online   content
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The ABF was discussing a video where a dog was touted as having "perfect pitch" because it "played the notes" that its trainer played on a pipe. It is actually an illustration of what "perfect" pitch (in the above sense of it) is not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y82sYIDxDoc

Never mind the dog. The person playing the pipe is dreadfully out of tune. Her pitches are approximate, and she is probably thinking in relative pitch - maybe even specifically in the context of F major. When piano and pipe play at the same time, she does not adjust, so she probably does not hear the (dreadful) difference.

But what she can do is good enough for playing piano, and relative pitch is probably more handy than pitch recognition anyway, much of the time.

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#2225757 - 02/04/14 12:45 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
The Monkeys Online   content
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Registered: 01/13/12
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Loc: Vancouver BC
Train him to be a piano tuner.

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#2225771 - 02/04/14 01:05 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: The Monkeys]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
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Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Train him to be a piano tuner.

Wouldn't a piano tuner be the person to train piano tuning?

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#2225787 - 02/04/14 01:48 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3214
Loc: Virginia, USA
The opera singer who did the National Anthem at the Superbowl had pretty good pitch.

But timing? Rhythm? Pulse?

There weren't 3 beats in ANY measure! At least not exactly 3 or any other integer.

IMO, worst Superbowl National Anthem ever!

She does have quite a voice though.
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#2225814 - 02/04/14 03:14 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7647
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
If the student, out of blue is listening anything on the radio, or piano, or whatever and he can tell the notes then this IS perfect pitch.

No it isn't. I can do that and I do not have perfect pitch.
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#2225821 - 02/04/14 03:21 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
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Oh well Polly... it's nice to see you disagreeing with people yet again. suite yourself.

I'm not interested in the least... :-/
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#2225831 - 02/04/14 03:38 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: Polyphonist]
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Registered: 05/15/12
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Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
It would still be relative pitch. Perfect pitch would be the ability to sing any requested pitch from a blank slate.

I don't agree. A person can have perfect pitch and no vocal skills whatsoever. It is defined by identification, not by production.
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#2225849 - 02/04/14 04:21 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4812
Loc: South Florida
Perfect pitch or absolute pitch: Never fully defined, because what is perfect or absolute?

If someone plays an A for me, but it is 339 or 441 instead of 440, and I can tell you that it is a vibration off, that would be pretty convincing. If I can listen to a tuning fork and tell if it is sharp or flat to a standard by a few cents, and I can tell you how how many cents off, that would be close to absolute.

But since no one is "perfect", we all have "imperfect pitch". The only question is how imperfect...
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#2225869 - 02/04/14 04:51 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Oh well Polly... it's nice to see you disagreeing with people yet again.

They are also disagreeing with me...no? It goes both ways. laugh As for the question at hand,

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
It would still be relative pitch. Perfect pitch would be the ability to sing any requested pitch from a blank slate.

I don't agree. A person can have perfect pitch and no vocal skills whatsoever. It is defined by identification, not by production.

Then what would you call it if someone could do that?
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#2225886 - 02/04/14 05:14 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
3times2 Offline
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Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 51
As a parent of 2 and possibly all three of my kids with perfect pitch, I will first offer my opinion on what not to do. Do not make a big deal about it to the child. We had no idea our oldest had perfect pitch until she started violin lessons. The violin teacher discovered it and proceeded to make a big deal about it in front of her. He later made a big deal about it when she joined orchestra. Fortunately she is a very humble kid, but the way her teacher put her up on a pedestal in front of the other kids could have set her up for disaster and a major battle with pride.

Our current violin teacher plays games with my son that he loves. He will play something and then see if my son can repeat it. My son loves doing this and I don't think has ever missed a note. The teacher then plays part of a tune and has my son finish the musical thought. It may have nothing to do with my sons perfect pitch, but it is a highlight when he gets to play that game in a lesson.

Their piano teacher noticed their perfect pitch but hasn't done anything special in their lessons. She has never made a big deal about it with the kids.

They know they have it, but we have worked very hard to minimize it. They have incredible natural talent and the last thing I want is for them to build a big ego while missing out on the value of hard work. The perfect pitch does provide some amusement like the time my daughter randomly informed me of the notes that chimed when Siri came on my iPhone or when they start naming notes made by hitting their glass of water at the dinner table.

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#2226008 - 02/04/14 08:40 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: ezpiano.org]
Brinestone Offline
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Thanks, 3times2! That was really helpful, and it makes perfect sense, no pun intended.
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#2226052 - 02/04/14 10:43 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: TimR]
John v.d.Brook Offline
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Originally Posted By: TimR
The opera singer who did the National Anthem at the Superbowl had pretty good pitch.

Renée Fleming. An extraordinary talent. I first heard her when she recorded the last songs of Richard Strauss. Brilliant.

This and a few of her other recordings would be great teaching material for students learning phrasing.
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#2226062 - 02/04/14 11:00 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: TimR]
keystring Online   content
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I was curious
Originally Posted By: TimR
The opera singer who did the National Anthem at the Superbowl had pretty good pitch.

But timing? Rhythm? Pulse?

There weren't 3 beats in ANY measure! At least not exactly 3 or any other integer.

So I looked it up (below)
It sounds wonderful to my ear.
Whatever she did with the timing, there is a full orchestra behind her, as well as a choir that comes in and out. And the drum (snare drum?) has a rhythm going. She could not go wild and strange in her timing - they sound tight together and good. Am I wrong?



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#2226146 - 02/05/14 04:49 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: 3times2]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
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Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: 3times2
We had no idea our oldest had perfect pitch until she started violin lessons. The violin teacher discovered it and proceeded to make a big deal about it in front of her. He later made a big deal about it when she joined orchestra.

Well, it is a big deal for violin or any other string players. Having perfect pitch definitely helps a string player to play in tune. I've accompanied several tone-deaf violin students, and it's no fun. frown
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#2226150 - 02/05/14 05:12 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: AZNpiano]
Saranoya Offline
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Loc: Brussels, Belgium
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: 3times2
We had no idea our oldest had perfect pitch until she started violin lessons. The violin teacher discovered it and proceeded to make a big deal about it in front of her. He later made a big deal about it when she joined orchestra.

Well, it is a big deal for violin or any other string players. Having perfect pitch definitely helps a string player to play in tune. I've accompanied several tone-deaf violin students, and it's no fun. frown


While I don't doubt for a second that violin players are better off with perfect pitch than tone deaf, I actually think that people with good relative pitch (i.e., those who can produce, or at least accurately imagine, the right next note based on the previous one) will get pretty good results, too. They're screwed if the reference note was off, because then everything they play based on that will be off, too. But they'll also be able to play without it hurting their ears whether the accompanist's instrument is tuned to A = 440 or A = 443. And transposing seems to be much easier for those who lack perfect pitch.

All in all, if I as a student had a teacher who suspected me of having perfect pitch, I'd rather they didn't do anything specific to stimulate it. If I truly did have perfect pitch, it would be there with or without any attention from the teacher, and it would probably be more trouble than it's worth.
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#2226207 - 02/05/14 08:46 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
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Registered: 08/17/04
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Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
I was curious
Originally Posted By: TimR
The opera singer who did the National Anthem at the Superbowl had pretty good pitch.

But timing? Rhythm? Pulse?

There weren't 3 beats in ANY measure! At least not exactly 3 or any other integer.

So I looked it up (below)
It sounds wonderful to my ear.


It sounds horrendous to me, in totality. Her voice is an awesome instrument and I really like the focused tone, thankfully free of overuse of vibrato and melisma.

But that was overshadowed for me by the timing issues. I didn't actually hear it live but looked it up when I saw forum comments about "why would she sing it in 4/4?" Well, it wasn't. Not 4/4 or anything else.

The brain needs some predictability. That thing about waiting for the next shoe to drop or a chord to resolve is true. Over several minutes that becomes very irritating. I'm not opposed to some rubato, if it's for a musical purpose. I could not detect an musical purpose to her timing errors. It appeared she just disconnected from time altogether.

Try an experiment. Sing along with her. See how it feels.
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#2226284 - 02/05/14 11:17 AM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: TimR]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
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Originally Posted By: TimR


Try an experiment. Sing along with her. See how it feels.

You mean - sing along with them - What is done with timing is shared by the orchestra and the choir. I don't actually have to sing along, but I did. It's not difficult, because there is something predictable and logical in what they are doing, and in fact, it was a pleasure.

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#2226332 - 02/05/14 01:06 PM Re: Perfect Pitch student, what you do about it? [Re: TimR]
AZNpiano Offline
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Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5510
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: TimR
The brain needs some predictability. That thing about waiting for the next shoe to drop or a chord to resolve is true. Over several minutes that becomes very irritating. I'm not opposed to some rubato, if it's for a musical purpose. I could not detect an musical purpose to her timing errors. It appeared she just disconnected from time altogether.

I have a feeling that this particular version of the National Anthem had been carefully arranged to include the chorus. The timing doesn't seem off to me at all.
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