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#2226690 - 02/06/14 12:12 AM What Knuckle Squeaks Where?
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I was thinking about what is actually vibrating when we hear the little "squeak" that knuckles sometimes make.

Is it the wood of the repetition lever? Or is it the buckskin/ecsaine?
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#2226696 - 02/06/14 12:28 AM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2506
Loc: Olympia, WA
Interesting question Ed! I never thought of it before. I think it must be the wood, as I can imagine it heaving a resonate frequency of some kind, unlike the knuckle which seems naturally damped.

But I think it would be the jack itself as opposed to the rep lever, since the squeak happens at when the jack starts to rotate.
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Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2226780 - 02/06/14 04:52 AM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Adypiano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/02/12
Posts: 48
Loc: Surrey, UK
I'm thinking the leather of the roller is causing the jack to vibrate, in the same way as a violin bow on strings.
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Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... smile

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#2226800 - 02/06/14 06:33 AM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Passing thought, leather can squeak when polishing a car.

PS Skin on Glass


Edited by Withindale (02/06/14 05:10 PM)
Edit Reason: PS
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Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2227888 - 02/08/14 12:32 PM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
SMHaley Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/13
Posts: 862
Loc: Seattle
In any case wouldn't it suggest there is friction to be dealt with?
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Zuckermann Flemish Single

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#2227912 - 02/08/14 02:27 PM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I don't see how the jack would be capable of being driven at the range of frequencies and amplitudes that comprise the squeak.

In the case of waxing a car the cloth is the bow and the surface of the car is both the string and soundboard.

I wonder if the vibrating component is the sides of the rep lever where the jack window is.
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In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2227918 - 02/08/14 02:39 PM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 740
Loc: England
I would consider the squeak to be a direct result of the frequency of the air being disturbed as both surfaces interact due to friction rather than either the leather or jack specifically.
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Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
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#2227940 - 02/08/14 03:54 PM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Gene Nelson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1533
Loc: Old Hangtown California
The nap of the buckskin pointing away from jack escapement, favoring return may contribute??
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RPT
PTG Member

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#2228059 - 02/08/14 07:31 PM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Fingers can squeak when rubbed against CD cases and through wet hair. Sounds like Johnkie and SM Haley are on the right track!
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2228136 - 02/08/14 09:43 PM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 2423
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
It seems like one, either the cloth or the wood surface, is the driver and the other is the soundboard. I suppose both could be vibrating but that would be most likely to produce two distinct ranges of pitch in the squeak.

Come to think of it the squeak often does have a lower "roarrrk" at the start of key motion and a continuous "screek" sound during key motion. But maybe I am hearing things.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2228156 - 02/08/14 10:14 PM Re: What Knuckle Squeaks Where? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2506
Loc: Olympia, WA
It would be easy enough to adjust the jack high in the rep window so that the rep lever is not in contact with the knuckle through let-off. If the squeak persists it would prove that the rep lever is not responsible. You could also do the opposite by adjusting the rep lever much higher than the jack and see how the squeak is effected.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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