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#2235876 - 02/22/14 09:54 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
in that aspect , the more consonant points are obtained, the more in tune it sound. that mean consonance address only notes/partials having enough energy to be concerned. (hence the somewhat useless tuning of triple octaves)
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#2235912 - 02/22/14 11:05 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1770
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Forgive me gentlemen. I am a newb compared to the long experience that you all have. But I have to ask, clean 2:1 octaves in the treble produce narrow 12ths and narrow triple octaves and extremely narrow 19ths. Why would anyone favour them?


Hi Mark,

I assume you mean that 2:1 octaves in the high treble produce narrow 12ths, 16ths, and 19ths with the notes below them. Yes they do, but the beat rates are too fast (ranging from 15bps to 108bps) and the sustain too short to be perceptible as beats. So the question remains, and has been variously answered here by many, in the case of the upper treble, do hear just the pureness of a 2:1 octave standing apart from the rest of the instrument, or do we hear those upper notes as being part of and fed by the lower notes?

Edit: I played the Trout last week and I definitely wanted and had pure octaves from C6-C8 - a necessary requirement when most of the piece is played in that range and mostly in octaves, and trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist.


Exactly, Prout. There's a quantum leap in clarity that comes from strong partials reinforcing each other rather than favouring the substantially weaker upper partials that even tuners strain to hear. Tuners raised on the holy grail of stretching everything and the creed of a pure octave being somehow a physical impossibility have probably never heard this clarity. It can by no means be described as dull!!!

Interestingly, and perhaps more to the point of this thread, did any of the ensemble perceive any melodic flatness in the treble of the piano? I would be extremely surprised if they did.

There's something happens in the scaling of a good piano that reaches out to help the tuner achieve both clean treble octaves and clean fifths without speeding up the M3's, tenths and 17ths. but only if you really really believe. Just as those who are convinced that stress is the natural way of things will never find peace and clarity, so it is with those who think stretch is the natural way of things. Sorry, Sunday's not til tomorrow. You don't want that sort of stuff from this old heretic anyway.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2235913 - 02/22/14 11:11 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: rxd]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Forgive me gentlemen. I am a newb compared to the long experience that you all have. But I have to ask, clean 2:1 octaves in the treble produce narrow 12ths and narrow triple octaves and extremely narrow 19ths. Why would anyone favour them?


It appears those same people who hire the best tuners they can find to tune their pianos every three or four hours.

The next question is, are they complete fools or do they know something we don't?

Because, as human minds, we ultimately can only judge by our own knowledge, those who would dismiss them as fools only prove their own foolishness.
. Who wold like to know what they know?

In the words of Sam and Janet Evening
"Who can explain it, who can tell you why?
Fools give you reasons, wise men never try".

Perhaps if we walked a mile in their moccasins?


Well, I assume they are hiring them for more reasons than just the sound of their treble octaves.

My question was, why would someone, you, prefer clean octaves over clean triple octaves (which are a good compromise between all the larger SBI)?

But I think Prout already answered it.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2235921 - 02/22/14 11:20 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: rxd]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Forgive me gentlemen. I am a newb compared to the long experience that you all have. But I have to ask, clean 2:1 octaves in the treble produce narrow 12ths and narrow triple octaves and extremely narrow 19ths. Why would anyone favour them?


Hi Mark,

I assume you mean that 2:1 octaves in the high treble produce narrow 12ths, 16ths, and 19ths with the notes below them. Yes they do, but the beat rates are too fast (ranging from 15bps to 108bps) and the sustain too short to be perceptible as beats. So the question remains, and has been variously answered here by many, in the case of the upper treble, do hear just the pureness of a 2:1 octave standing apart from the rest of the instrument, or do we hear those upper notes as being part of and fed by the lower notes?

Edit: I played the Trout last week and I definitely wanted and had pure octaves from C6-C8 - a necessary requirement when most of the piece is played in that range and mostly in octaves, and trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist.


Exactly, Prout. There's a quantum leap in clarity that comes from strong partials reinforcing each other rather than favouring the substantially weaker upper partials that even tuners strain to hear. Tuners raised on the holy grail of stretching everything and the creed of a pure octave being somehow a physical impossibility have probably never heard this clarity. It can by no means be described as dull!!!

Interestingly, and perhaps more to the point of this thread, did any of the ensemble perceive any melodic flatness in the treble of the piano? I would be extremely surprised if they did.

There's something happens in the scaling of a good piano that reaches out to help the tuner achieve both clean treble octaves and clean fifths without speeding up the M3's, tenths and 17ths. but only if you really really believe. Just as those who are convinced that stress is the natural way of things will never find peace and clarity, so it is with those who think stretch is the natural way of things. Sorry, Sunday's not til tomorrow. You don't want that sort of stuff from this old heretic anyway.


Thanks Rxd. I know what a clean octave sounds like and I also know what a narrow 12th sounds like. I prefer a cleaner 12th with a bright (wide) octave. The narrow 12th just sounds wrong, to me.

However, we must be clear here. Those who play around with high quality grands, ;-) are not experiencing what I am talking about in the same degree. It is much easier to get all those larger SBI humming together nicely on those kind of pianos.

Of course I can get clean octaves, fifths, 12ths, and triple octaves on a Steinway D. It is the smaller more challenging pianos that demand a more committed approach.

Best Regards,
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2235930 - 02/22/14 11:38 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
the so called "2:1" octave to me is reinforced by more than the only 2:1 ratio.

Hopefully (seem to me) there is a kind of justness for pure intervals that allow for a small band of acceptability. The effect have a name, but I don't know it in English.

The same for 5ths, 12ths, double octaves (probably)

For instance, the treble octave can be tuned without playing any reference note one octave below , the sudden raise in clarity and focus signs the "good " octave. Works more or less well depending of the instrument/depending of the quality of the tuning lower in the scale.



Edited by Olek (02/22/14 11:46 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2235933 - 02/22/14 11:43 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Maybe I am trying to find the best of both worlds. As a rank amateur tuner, I am trying to understand and hear what happens when I attempt a certain stretch in the bass or high treble. I am slowly learning to hear beats, harshness, and a sense of the cohesive whole. The problem I am facing is that I haven't yet achieved clear, clean, ringing octaves in the treble and still have a cohesive whole. My tuner/tech, who I finally let tune my piano after a year of regulating and voicing, was able to get both qualities, and in Young to boot.
I'm jealous!

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#2235976 - 02/22/14 01:30 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1770
Loc: London, England
I have a forty inch upright(well, the plate is 37" or so) in my London pied à terre that I tune more than ever now. I don't make a statement on this forum until I have tried it on this piano.

Everything I have said about treble tuning bigger pianos actually works out on this piano too.

No matter what other instruments we play, some of our tuning habits stem from our first attempts at tuning and preconceptions arising from that time.
We haven't looked or listened closely at/to them since. I know I do.

Tuners don't create a tuning curve, the piano does.

At first glance, an octave may seem narrow. So why does widening it make it sound worse? It's a paradox inside an enigma. Are we trying to make things what they're not?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2236036 - 02/22/14 03:37 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: rxd
Are we trying to make things what they're not?


Of course we are. Humans have been desperately attempting to make things they are not since the Troglodytes.

I think there is a song in there somewhere……
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2236089 - 02/22/14 05:42 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Thank you Rxd.

2:1 octaves on a grand produce 12ths that are not as narrow as those produced by 2:1 octaves on an upright. That is not opinion, that is scientific fact.

After that, it is preference. Does one listen to the taste of the octave or the wider SBI's.

There is a choice to be made.

High level tuners make that choice. I'm interested in bringing this to the attention of tuners who may not be aware.

At one point I thought there was only one stretch curve that sounded good on a piano. Now I choose the best one for the situation.

That is why I am so greatful for all the varying opinion; opinion means there's more to the eye of one who may not have an opinion on the subject, and we move forward.

Great stuff.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2236093 - 02/22/14 05:47 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: rxd]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: rxd

At first glance, an octave may seem narrow. So why does widening it make it sound worse?


IME it doesn't.

But it can make the 12th sound better.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2236105 - 02/22/14 06:21 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
I just finished tuning my BB. I tuned C7-C8 aurally as pure octaves, then checked them with my frequency meter. They were spot on 2:1 octaves. We're not talking about +\- x cents here. We are talking no beats. No stretch beyond the iH. This surprises me.

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#2236106 - 02/22/14 06:29 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: prout
I just finished tuning my BB. I tuned C7-C8 aurally as pure octaves, then checked them with my frequency meter. They were spot on 2:1 octaves. We're not talking about +\- x cents here. We are talking no beats. No stretch beyond the iH. This surprises me.


Which is the part that surprises; the part discovered about the accuracy of the human ear or the part where you executed the preciseness of the task.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#2236109 - 02/22/14 06:32 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
What do the 12ths and triple octaves sound like?

Usually, for me anyway, the 12ths are audibly narrow when I used to tune pure pctaves in the treble, which makes the top note "sound" flat.

On big pianos, I now look for pure 19ths, which produces the widest octaves, but on big pianos, it's not noticeable, IME.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2236111 - 02/22/14 06:38 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: rxd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1077
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: rxd
I have a forty inch upright(well, the plate is 37" or so) in my London pied à terre that I tune more than ever now. I don't make a statement on this forum until I have tried it on this piano.

Everything I have said about treble tuning bigger pianos actually works out on this piano too.

No matter what other instruments we play, some of our tuning habits stem from our first attempts at tuning and preconceptions arising from that time.
We haven't looked or listened closely at/to them since. I know I do.

Tuners don't create a tuning curve, the piano does.

At first glance, an octave may seem narrow. So why does widening it make it sound worse? It's a paradox inside an enigma. Are we trying to make things what they're not?


Hi Brother,

You wrote: ..."I have a forty inch upright(well, the plate is 37" or so) in my London pied à terre that I tune more than ever now. I don't make a statement on this forum until I have tried it on this piano."...

That sounds wise and generous on your part.

..."..Everything I have said about treble tuning bigger pianos actually works out on this piano too."...

Yes, I believe what you are saying. How about the mid-bass and bass section, is it very different from bigger pianos?

..."No matter what other instruments we play, some of our tuning habits stem from our first attempts at tuning and preconceptions arising from that time."...

Well, who knows?

..."We haven't looked or listened closely at/to them since. I know I do."...

Who is "We", Brother, who is "I"?

..."Tuners don't create a tuning curve, the piano does."...

Hmmm... This is a new one, the piano creates a tuning curve?... Perhaps you mean the manufacturer, in which case it would be "conceive". Oh, perhaps language has to do with that.

..."At first glance, an octave may seem narrow."...

Not for me, ..."an octave" is never an octave on its own, please read "never an octave on its own"; an octave cannot "seem narrow": actually a narrow octave slows down 3ds, 4ths, 6ths, 10ths, 15ths and 17ths, and makes 5ths and 12ths too narrow. An octave cannot "seem" narrow, either it is or it is not. The same (only inverted) would apply to octaves that (you would say, Brother) may 'seem' wide.

So, how many 'not_narrow_not_wide octaves' do you count?

..." So why does widening it make it sound worse? It's a paradox inside an enigma. Are we trying to make things what they're not?"...

Well, I don't know about you, Brother, I have been making 'things' and "what they're" for many years now, but let me say, 'things' are what we make of them and I don't know, you might feel more confortable when you are part of a paradox or inside an enigma.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2236116 - 02/22/14 07:05 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: BDB]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: BDB

y=sin(x)+sin(2x)/2+sin(3x)/4+sin(4x)/8+sin(5x)/16+sin(6x)/32+sin(7x)/64

Those of you who know a little math know what that means!

It is part of the Fourier series for sin(x)/(5-4cos(x)), but I have no idea what it means.

Kees

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#2236136 - 02/22/14 07:57 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: prout
I just finished tuning my BB. I tuned C7-C8 aurally as pure octaves, then checked them with my frequency meter. They were spot on 2:1 octaves. We're not talking about +\- x cents here. We are talking no beats. No stretch beyond the iH. This surprises me.


Which is the part that surprises; the part discovered about the accuracy of the human ear or the part where you executed the preciseness of the task.


It is the fact that no stretch is required beyond the iH the of lower note in the high treble octaves. I previously thought, and calculated, that a greater stretch was required to match the iH of the middle and lower notes, but, with a relatively short sustain in the high treble, tight sounding octaves, for me, are best, since, even with a full compass arpeggio with dampers up, the resulting consonance after about three seconds, is based entirely on the lower notes. This is, to me, an untrained amateur, revealing.


Edited by prout (02/22/14 10:14 PM)

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#2236138 - 02/22/14 08:04 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
What do the 12ths and triple octaves sound like?

Usually, for me anyway, the 12ths are audibly narrow when I used to tune pure pctaves in the treble, which makes the top note "sound" flat.

On big pianos, I now look for pure 19ths, which produces the widest octaves, but on big pianos, it's not noticeable, IME.


I profess ignorance regarding the pro tuner's use of the phrase "listening to twelfths". Are you referring to playing the root note simultaneously with the twelfth note above? If so, it an issue, as I tune in Young temperament.

The triple octaves sound OK to me (a number of false beats that I cannot completely control in the C5-C6 area).
I have recorded CM3s from C2-A#4, all muted notes, and tomorrow I will record full compass octaves and arpeggios. I will post the results.


Edited by prout (02/22/14 08:10 PM)

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#2236139 - 02/22/14 08:12 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Let's not forget the resonance of those lower notes. Pure 12ths and 19ths have a different tone. Try it. Tune the first no damper and last damper as pure 12th or 19th then play the 12th or 19th below. The higher note has a brightness to it that is not there with the lower.

Also, concert grands have much more sustain on those higher notes than uprights do.

These are the reasons I make the choices of pure 12ths and 19ths.

I also may choose tempered 12ths and pure 22nds, depending.

Of course, only when I have a discerning customer or concert performance, or extra time; for myself.

Each choice produces differing tonal qualities; more or less consonant wide chords.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2236256 - 02/23/14 08:03 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Let's not forget the resonance of those lower notes. Pure 12ths and 19ths have a different tone. Try it. Tune the first no damper and last damper as pure 12th or 19th then play the 12th or 19th below. The higher note has a brightness to it that is not there with the lower.

Also, concert grands have much more sustain on those higher notes than uprights do.

These are the reasons I make the choices of pure 12ths and 19ths.

I also may choose tempered 12ths and pure 22nds, depending.

Of course, only when I have a discerning customer or concert performance, or extra time; for myself.

Each choice produces differing tonal qualities; more or less consonant wide chords.


Interesting points. Thanks. I had not thought in terms of tonal changes when adjusting octave size. I will test your theory in a day or so ( have to fly today). There is a possible application of your ideas to my tuning style. Since I tune in Young, there are several pure fifths that are tuned in the temperament octave(s) (I am trying to rigorously maintain the temperament from at least C3-C5). That means the octave partials do not line up perfectly with the fifths and their partials. As well, the very narrow fifths of the keys closely related to C present other challenges.

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#2236452 - 02/23/14 04:51 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1077
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Let's not forget the resonance of those lower notes. Pure 12ths and 19ths have a different tone. Try it. Tune the first no damper and last damper as pure 12th or 19th then play the 12th or 19th below. The higher note has a brightness to it that is not there with the lower.

Also, concert grands have much more sustain on those higher notes than uprights do.

These are the reasons I make the choices of pure 12ths and 19ths.

I also may choose tempered 12ths and pure 22nds, depending.

Of course, only when I have a discerning customer or concert performance, or extra time; for myself.

Each choice produces differing tonal qualities; more or less consonant wide chords.


Interesting points. Thanks. I had not thought in terms of tonal changes when adjusting octave size. I will test your theory in a day or so ( have to fly today). There is a possible application of your ideas to my tuning style. Since I tune in Young, there are several pure fifths that are tuned in the temperament octave(s) (I am trying to rigorously maintain the temperament from at least C3-C5). That means the octave partials do not line up perfectly with the fifths and their partials. As well, the very narrow fifths of the keys closely related to C present other challenges.


Hi Mark,

You wrote: ..."Let's not forget the resonance of those lower notes. Pure 12ths and 19ths have a different tone. Try it. Tune the first no damper and last damper as pure 12th or 19th then play the 12th or 19th below. The higher note has a brightness to it that is not there with the lower."...

I am sorry to have to say that I do not understand the meaning of that test. Dampers absorb energy... what do you mean by "...Pure 12ths and 19ths have a different tone", I sincerely think I must have missed some vocabulary.

..."Also, concert grands have much more sustain on those higher notes than uprights do."...

Yes, although it varies depending on the brand. In any case, unless there is a problem with false strings, I do not have reasons to modify my tuning Form (ops...Pre-Form).

..."I also may choose tempered 12ths and pure 22nds, depending."...

Wondering "depending" what on... Perhaps you explain that later, when you say "Each choice produces differing tonal qualities; more or less consonant wide chords."

Here again, I wish I knew what you mean by "tonal qualities". This evening I tuned for a jazz event, the pianist said... "usually these chords sound out of tune". Now, the point is not how I agree with him, but how I would (in fact I do) relate "tonal quality" to "in tune", like a dictat that comes from "intonation".

If I may ask, what do you mean by "tonal qualities", and what is the discriminant for you, i.e. when would your choice be "more.. consonant", and when "..less.."?

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (02/23/14 05:11 PM)
Edit Reason: corrections
_________________________
alfredo

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#2236476 - 02/23/14 05:44 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

You wrote: ..."Let's not forget the resonance of those lower notes. Pure 12ths and 19ths have a different tone. Try it. Tune the first no damper and last damper as pure 12th or 19th then play the 12th or 19th below. The higher note has a brightness to it that is not there with the lower."...

I am sorry to have to say that I do not understand the meaning of that test. Dampers absorb energy... what do you mean by "...Pure 12ths and 19ths have a different tone", I sincerely think I must have missed some vocabulary.


Hi Alfredo,

Thanks for the questions.

The term tone refers to the pure quality of the 12th or the 19th, not that it is a 12th or 19th.

The note with the damper will not ring sympathetically with the pure 12th or pure 19th below, and thus allows us to compare the tone of a note a 12th or 19th below that does have the higher partial resonating.

The next note (without the damper) will ring with its pure cousin below, and depending on which interval was tuned pure, that note will excite the undamped note.

So, tuning pure 2:1 octaves will not create this resonance, because they produce narrow 12ths and 19ths. It's a trade off.

I hope that's clearer.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

..."I also may choose tempered 12ths and pure 22nds, depending."...

Wondering "depending" what on...


Depending on how well they sit. How easy is it to get all the intervals to sound good? A pure 19th may not sit well on a piano that has high iH; the treble octaves may be too wide. Maybe a pure 22nd will work. Pure 22nds have accompanying tempered 12ths.

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

If I may ask, what do you mean by "tonal qualities", and what is the discriminant for you, i.e. when would your choice be "more.. consonant", and when "..less.."?

Regards, a.c.


I think I answered that above, but generally, classical concerts on 8 or 9 foot concert grands, encourage me to tune wide intervals more pure. I imagine the pianist with arms outstreched, slamming down a fortissimo bass chord with a shreaking treble slam. The treble octaves would not be as in tune with the lower larger intervals if they were tuned pure 2:1.

However, for jazz, with close harmonies, I'm not as worried. Close treble work in the high section would sound much better with the pure 2:1 , IMHO.

Of course, this is just how I think about these things. I haven't done any research on it or asked others what they hear when I'm tuning.


Edited by Mark Cerisano, RPT (02/23/14 05:47 PM)
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Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2236484 - 02/23/14 06:20 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1077
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Forgive me gentlemen. I am a newb compared to the long experience that you all have. But I have to ask, clean 2:1 octaves in the treble produce narrow 12ths and narrow triple octaves and extremely narrow 19ths. Why would anyone favour them?


Hi Mark,

I assume you mean that 2:1 octaves in the high treble produce narrow 12ths, 16ths, and 19ths with the notes below them. Yes they do, but the beat rates are too fast (ranging from 15bps to 108bps) and the sustain too short to be perceptible as beats. So the question remains, and has been variously answered here by many, in the case of the upper treble, do hear just the pureness of a 2:1 octave standing apart from the rest of the instrument, or do we hear those upper notes as being part of and fed by the lower notes?

Edit: I played the Trout last week and I definitely wanted and had pure octaves from C6-C8 - a necessary requirement when most of the piece is played in that range and mostly in octaves, and trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist.


Went back a bit, the above was posted here on February 22, 2014 12:50 PM

Hi Prout,

Perhaps it makes a difference if I tell you that also "in the high treble", 5ths, octaves, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths are well discernable.

You ask: ..."..do (we) hear just the pureness of a 2:1 octave standing apart from the rest of the instrument, or do we hear those upper notes as being part of and fed by the lower notes?"...

For me it is the latter, I hear octaves (and any other interval) as "being part of and fed by the lower notes"; I would only add that octaves too (as all intervals) feed the lower notes, in a 'circular' relationship.

..."I definitely wanted and had pure octaves from C6-C8 - a necessary requirement when most of the piece is played in that range and mostly in octaves, and trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist."

Hmmm... You mention "pure octaves" and there might be a gap already, meaning that you might hear "pure octave" when they are not; you say "...a necessary requirement..." and I do not understand why "necessary", perhaps you would exclude beating octaves... when you hear beating octaves?

The last issue, "..trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist.", I would have a question for you: Do you think you would need two different tunings, one for ensemble and one for soloist?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2236485 - 02/23/14 06:30 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
Originally Posted By: prout
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Forgive me gentlemen. I am a newb compared to the long experience that you all have. But I have to ask, clean 2:1 octaves in the treble produce narrow 12ths and narrow triple octaves and extremely narrow 19ths. Why would anyone favour them?


Hi Mark,

I assume you mean that 2:1 octaves in the high treble produce narrow 12ths, 16ths, and 19ths with the notes below them. Yes they do, but the beat rates are too fast (ranging from 15bps to 108bps) and the sustain too short to be perceptible as beats. So the question remains, and has been variously answered here by many, in the case of the upper treble, do hear just the pureness of a 2:1 octave standing apart from the rest of the instrument, or do we hear those upper notes as being part of and fed by the lower notes?

Edit: I played the Trout last week and I definitely wanted and had pure octaves from C6-C8 - a necessary requirement when most of the piece is played in that range and mostly in octaves, and trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist.


Went back a bit, the above was posted here on February 22, 2014 12:50 PM

Hi Prout,

Perhaps it makes a difference if I tell you that also "in the high treble", 5ths, octaves, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths are well discernable.

You ask: ..."..do (we) hear just the pureness of a 2:1 octave standing apart from the rest of the instrument, or do we hear those upper notes as being part of and fed by the lower notes?"...

For me it is the latter, I hear octaves (and any other interval) as "being part of and fed by the lower notes"; I would only add that octaves too (as all intervals) feed the lower notes, in a 'circular' relationship.

..."I definitely wanted and had pure octaves from C6-C8 - a necessary requirement when most of the piece is played in that range and mostly in octaves, and trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist."

Hmmm... You mention "pure octaves" and there might be a gap already, meaning that you might hear "pure octave" when they are not; you say "...a necessary requirement..." and I do not understand why "necessary", perhaps you would exclude beating octaves... when you hear beating octaves?

The last issue, "..trying to be an ensemble instrument, not a soloist.", I would have a question for you: Do you think you would need two different tunings, one for ensemble and one for soloist?

Regards, a.c.
.

Hi Alfredo,
My measurements, using a flat response microphone, of the notes, struck by hammers, in the range from C6 and higher indicate significant energy in the first and second partials, and much, much less energy in the third partial. The sustain of the notes from C7 up is so short that tuning those notes to any other than the second partial of the octave below seems futile. More to come. Must eat now.

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#2236559 - 02/23/14 10:04 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/02
Posts: 3274
Loc: Madison, WI USA
After spending an entire weekend with guitarists that are not satisfied with the status quo on what sounds in tune or not in recording sessions, I really think the piano tuning "bullies" that want only ET and flat trebles will find what they did in these times mocked as being "period tuning" in the future. A reason to want to buy new recordings that actually have the piano sounding appealing to the listener!
_________________________
Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com

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#2236656 - 02/24/14 05:54 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Originally Posted By: prout

My measurements, using a flat response microphone, of the notes, struck by hammers, in the range from C6 and higher indicate significant energy in the first and second partials, and much, much less energy in the third partial. The sustain of the notes from C7 up is so short that tuning those notes to any other than the second partial of the octave below seems futile.


Yes, this is often the reason for advocating the 2:1.
Tuning them to the 12th below produces consistently wide 2:1, without having to hear or test the 4:2.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2236697 - 02/24/14 09:15 AM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Good morning Mark et al,

Mark wrote - "The note with the damper will not ring sympathetically with the pure 12th or pure 19th below, and thus allows us to compare the tone of a note a 12th or 19th below that does have the higher partial resonating.

The next note (without the damper) will ring with its pure cousin below, and depending on which interval was tuned pure, that note will excite the undamped note.

So, tuning pure 2:1 octaves will not create this resonance, because they produce narrow 12ths and 19ths. It's a trade off."

I missed Mark's point for several days, then it hit me. This is the problem I have been experiencing on my piano since I got it. F6 is the last damped note. F#6 and the next several notes ring sympathetically like crazy with their related 12th and 19th below and cause an annoying change in the tone of the lower notes. Being ignorant of this at first, I asked my tech to voice the offending notes. He declined, though he did suggest that we could make careful cuts in the E6 and F6 damper to allow them to bleed slightly and ease the transition to undamped notes. I declined.

I have found that sympathetic vibrations are excited even though the related partial is not perfectly in tune - the range capable of causing excitation being +- 5Hz or more. This implies, and my ears tell me, that the 12th and 19th below are excited when I play from C6 up. C6 is, for some reason, beatless at the octave, 12th, and 19th. C#6 and up, not so much. My wife hears C6 as flat, and C#6 as in tune. Can't please everybody it seems!

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#2236782 - 02/24/14 12:37 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1770
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: prout
Good morning Mark et al,

Mark wrote - "The note with the damper will not ring sympathetically with the pure 12th or pure 19th below, and thus allows us to compare the tone of a note a 12th or 19th below that does have the higher partial resonating.

The next note (without the damper) will ring with its pure cousin below, and depending on which interval was tuned pure, that note will excite the undamped note.

So, tuning pure 2:1 octaves will not create this resonance, because they produce narrow 12ths and 19ths. It's a trade off."

I missed Mark's point for several days, then it hit me. This is the problem I have been experiencing on my piano since I got it. F6 is the last damped note. F#6 and the next several notes ring sympathetically like crazy with their related 12th and 19th below and cause an annoying change in the tone of the lower notes. Being ignorant of this at first, I asked my tech to voice the offending notes. He declined, though he did suggest that we could make careful cuts in the E6 and F6 damper to allow them to bleed slightly and ease the transition to undamped notes. I declined.

I have found that sympathetic vibrations are excited even though the related partial is not perfectly in tune - the range capable of causing excitation being +- 5Hz or more. This implies, and my ears tell me, that the 12th and 19th below are excited when I play from C6 up. C6 is, for some reason, beatless at the octave, 12th, and 19th. C#6 and up, not so much. My wife hears C6 as flat, and C#6 as in tune. Can't please everybody it seems!





This phenomenon is very similar to what I experienced when I roped in random students tor listen to the bass metes of a piano I was tuning and make changes. (see my post of about a week ago). Some of the differemt perceptions may also be subtle tonal changes. Notes can be where a rib crosses the bridge, near a plate strut, on a change of string gauge, a change in non speaking length at either of both ends of the speaking length or any combination of the foregoing. No two adjacent notes are sounding under the same mechanical conditions. They are all subtly different. Ask any tone regulator who has to reconcile all these differences at the hammer. It all makes for very different change in percePtion of pitch. This is just a few of the parameters that change perception in seemingly in different ways for different people. I have had music students who, once they perceive a note as flat, will raise it and never find a spot where it is perceived as "in tune" again.

I always baulk when I hear "most musicians" or "my more discerning clients", etc. I work among some of the finest musicians in the world today, or at least those shoo are experienced in scrutinising their own playing of timing after every take.
yet I can't get inside their heads to find out what "they" prefer. I have conducted casual tests and results from each individual are so so different. All I have is their total acceptance of what we give them. There are five major symphonies in this town and about as many musicians again in the freelance field.

I just heard a string trio playing a transcription of the Goldberg variations each musician was a well known major orchestral section leader. Their performance was exceptional in intonation. All historically accurate non vib playing. I asked them about how they arrived at their accurate intonation. The first reply was, playing in G major for hours and hours. (their intonation faltered a bit in one of the minor key movements Another was," it's like watching where you are going in traffic except listening where you're going in a musical context". I asked them whether they considered the temperaments. There was an unanimous. "No". Yet all their intervals were, to all intents and purposes, pure and their melodic intonation was based on that except where they sensed the freedom to use modern melodic intonation. . They were all Manchester people. Nothing the least bit pretentious about them Lancastrians

Bill, sorry If you feel bullied. Are your guitarist friends into fretless guitars? I had a band mate on the SS Rotterdam who, while he played fretted on the job, he practiced for hours on a fretless. Fixed frets limit the possibilities for guitarists. How did they get around that?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2236794 - 02/24/14 01:17 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: prout]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1403
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
To test whether the tonal differences are caused by the missing damper, manually dampen F#6, and play B3 or B4. Does it change?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2236876 - 02/24/14 04:05 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
To test whether the tonal differences are caused by the missing damper, manually dampen F#6, and play B3 or B4. Does it change?

At the moment, having just tuned the piano, B4, the most problematic, is not too different from the surrounding notes, though it still sounds as if its own damper is bleeding (it's not), which blurs the clarity of a moving line. After a few weeks of heavy playing, all the Bs on the piano get really harsh and annoying. This piano has tuned rear duplexes which really sing as well. Great for big works, but I dampen them out sometimes when practicing polyphonic music.

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#2236881 - 02/24/14 04:17 PM Re: Do we hear 'in tune' intervals by size or beats? [Re: alfredo capurso]
prout Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/13
Posts: 836
Hi Alfredo,

I used the phrase 'pure octaves' without being clear. Sorry. I do not know yet what makes a 'pure octave', other than to say when I hear it, I like it, though, as rxd pointed out using students, I can hear it as in tune one moment and flat the next, depending on how I choose to hear it. Whether it is wide, or narrow with regard to a given partial, I cannot say.

With regard to the 'Trout', I was not concerned with how those upper octaves fit with the rest of the piano (heresy I know), only that they be it tune with themselves, whatever that means.

I am not in a position to judge the merits of stretching the upper treble to add brilliance and projection to the back row for a piano used as a solo instrument for a concerto. As a listener to a chamber recital of solo piano, I would not want brilliance in the upper end, I would want balance for a listener only metres away.

To all, please forgive these ramblings, I do not mean to offend.




Edited by prout (02/24/14 04:33 PM)

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